Auckland v Waikato
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@Bovidae said in Auckland v Waikato:
Auckland had more SR players in their XV than Waikato, so I don't think that they were that inexperienced. Plenty of players making debuts off the bench in both teams.
There are SR players and SR players. The likes of Che Clark and Payton Spencer are green as hell.
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@KiwiMurph said in Auckland v Waikato:
There are SR players and SR players. The likes of Che Clark and Payton Spencer are green as hell.
I wasn't counting those guys, or Saifoloi and Anderson for Waikato. More those that are regularly in the 23 or have been.
Speaking of the bench players, Liam Anderson impressed as someone who was playing U20s this year.
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I was interested in the blindside match-up in this game – 1.95m, 114 kg Xavier Saifoloi vs. 1.94m, 105+ kg (he looks to have put on a bit of weight?) Che Clark – as they’re two bigger bodies with a lot of potential.
Watching a player like Saifoloi, however, constantly hanging around in the 15 metre channel while watching the play unfold on the other side of the field – neither finding ways to get himself involved, nor his teammates succeeding in getting him involved – was more than a bit frustrating.
Part of this is on Saifoloi, of course, not having the rugby sense to make the play come to him (this also becomes further apparent when comparing his positioning and involvements to Andrew Smith, his replacement, who was much more active in looking for ball and contact). But part of this is also, I think, on NZ Rugby’s inability – I believe it’s a countrywide issue – to properly find ways to both (1) create game plans which gets the most out of these bigger bodies and (2) upskill and develop these players to their full potential.
A player like Saifoloi isn’t meant, in my view, to play 73 minutes while barely getting any involvements. You use a player like that to physically bully the opposition and dominate the gain line, making him empty the tank for 45 minutes and then sub him.
Watching last week’s Test between the Wallabies and British and Irish Lions, it was obvious how valuable big bodies are in modern day rugby. There are plenty of players like Skelton and Valetini in New Zealand; the issue, however, is you need to start using them to the best of their abilities rather than just make them play the same 1-3-3-1 edge forward template. Give players like Saifoloi the ball in his hands and tell him to smash the opposition until he’s out of gas.
Good game, though.
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@Duluth said in Auckland v Waikato:
The issue was the subs. Choat lasting for a few minutes meant we had no impact in the loose forwards and the starting lock, Cribb, had to move into loose forward
Not sure what happened in the backs. Were both Spencer and Vai injured? They both went off in the 70th minute replaced by Gordon and Arscott and Funaki had to go to the wing
Defence was a mess with compromised loose forwards and outside backs in the last 10mins. Probably shouldn't have gone for that penalty kick and gone for a 5m lineout
This reminds me of Lions 2017 II. We were handling Lions with 14 until SOB stiff armed Naholo. That muntered the makeshift defence and Lions sneaked an EPIC victory.
That series could and probably should have been a Lions whitewash.
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@Mauss said in Auckland v Waikato:
I was interested in the blindside match-up in this game – 1.95m, 114 kg Xavier Saifoloi vs. 1.94m, 105+ kg (he looks to have put on a bit of weight?) Che Clark – as they’re two bigger bodies with a lot of potential.
Watching a player like Saifoloi, however, constantly hanging around in the 15 metre channel while watching the play unfold on the other side of the field – neither finding ways to get himself involved, nor his teammates succeeding in getting him involved – was more than a bit frustrating.
Part of this is on Saifoloi, of course, not having the rugby sense to make the play come to him (this also becomes further apparent when comparing his positioning and involvements to Andrew Smith, his replacement, who was much more active in looking for ball and contact). But part of this is also, I think, on NZ Rugby’s inability – I believe it’s a countrywide issue – to properly find ways to both (1) create game plans which gets the most out of these bigger bodies and (2) upskill and develop these players to their full potential.
A player like Saifoloi isn’t meant, in my view, to play 73 minutes while barely getting any involvements. You use a player like that to physically bully the opposition and dominate the gain line, making him empty the tank for 45 minutes and then sub him.
Watching last week’s Test between the Wallabies and British and Irish Lions, it was obvious how valuable big bodies are in modern day rugby. There are plenty of players like Skelton and Valetini in New Zealand; the issue, however, is you need to start using them to the best of their abilities rather than just make them play the same 1-3-3-1 edge forward template. Give players like Saifoloi the ball in his hands and tell him to smash the opposition until he’s out of gas.
Good game, though.
Are the ABs/Super teams too ‘refined’ to employ such blunt instruments?
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@pakman said in Auckland v Waikato:
Are the ABs/Super teams too ‘refined’ to employ such blunt instruments?
They’d be silly to think like that which, to be clear, I don’t think they do. I’m pretty sure that Robertson and Ryan would love nothing more than a player like Valetini at 6. For me, it’s more a question of when and where is a player like Saifoloi supposed to actually develop into the kind of ‘blunt instrument’ which could be effective in Test rugby, if not in the NPC?
Right now, playing for Waikato, it’s generic one-size-fits-all rugby, especially in terms of forwards’ structures. Filipo would most likely claim they don’t really have the squad together for long enough to experiment with game plans, which is fair enough. But when Saifoloi then goes to the Crusaders, he’ll still most likely be considered too raw to get much game time. Plus the Crusaders don’t really play a lot of one-off rugby off 9 in multi-phase, so he won’t really learn there either.
So the main issue for me is more that players like Saifoloi don’t really have a clear pathway up the NZ Rugby pyramid through which they can develop the kind of physical dominance-game that’s so valuable in Test rugby. Most teams simply play in too similar a fashion for different styles of players to effectively come through. There’s been some nice variation in attack shapes in the NPC in recent years, like with Taranaki, but that variation hasn’t really taken place in terms of forward play, as far as I can tell.
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@pakman said in Auckland v Waikato:
Nick Gill is very big on the bronco test. But maybe 6’ 5” loosies ought to cut some slack, and accept that they’re gassed after 55 - 60, at which point you can potentially bring another on?
Maybe it's time to bin the bronco tests and realise that Rugby is a game of RAW POWER rather aerobic fitness these days?
How many Rugby Championships and Rugby World Cups are we going to sacrifice on the bronco test altar?
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Geez I enjoyed the game. I really was completely neutral, so just sat here and enjoyed the rugby. I thought usual for early game in NPC , there seemed to be a bit of disconnect on defense at times, but that's not unusual. Was a real case of experience against young up and comers in backlines.
It's so good having NPC back. -
@Bovidae Waikato proving preseason camps and games are overrated ..Staggering they have only been together for a week probably explains their poor start
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@Steven-Harris said in Auckland v Waikato:
@Bovidae Waikato proving preseason camps and games are overrated ..Staggering they have only been together for a week probably explains their poor start
The late completion of club rugby doesn't help with NPC preparation. Apart from Taranaki, with two RS defences and a pre-season game, most other PUs have had either one or two games before Rd 1.
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@Bovidae said in Auckland v Waikato:
Four wins in a row over Auckland as well, which looks to be Waikato's best winning streak.
Equals.
Waikato won 4 in a row over Auckland 1954-55
1954 won 23-9 (Ham); won 14-13 (Auck)
1955 won 24-13 (Ham); won 17-14 (Auck).
