Chiefs v Blues (27 March 2021)
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@bones said in Chiefs v Blues (27 March 2021):
@pakman I didn't see it go forward.
You need to do play/pause repeatedly to be clear. If you watch other angles to see exactly when ball released and then do pause/play on overhead, marking where ball left hands, you’ll see it.
Ball let go a bit before five yard line and caught almost on it.
All that said and done, it’s in the book now.
@pakman said in Chiefs v Blues (27 March 2021):
@bones said in Chiefs v Blues (27 March 2021):
@pakman I didn't see it go forward.
You need to do play/pause repeatedly to be clear. If you watch other angles to see exactly when ball released and then do pause/play on overhead, marking where ball left hands, you’ll see it.
Ball let go a bit before five yard line and caught almost on it.
All that said and done, it’s in the book now.
Yep pakman, but if you do that and still struggling to work out if ball came out forwards or backwards the right decision was made, it has to be clearly forward to over rule the try. I think if the ref had called it no try because of forward pass it wouldn't have been over ruled either. So as a neutral I pretty content with decision.
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I think some of Black's less than ideal performance last night sits with Mcdonald, he is fucking around with the 9, not allowing a combo to be built.
Week 1 - Nock
Week 2- good Ruru
Week 3 - shit Ruru
Week 4 - ChristieI think Dalton is playing like Cane circa 2014/2015, and also better than the AB captain.
@taniwharugby said in Chiefs v Blues (27 March 2021):
I think some of Black's less than ideal performance last night sits with Mcdonald, he is fucking around with the 9, not allowing a combo to be built.
I think the reality is Otere is not a top 10, he was pretty ordinary last year until he had BB helping him from 15 and he has had only a couple of good games this year when Blue's pack was absolutely on top.
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@pakman said in Chiefs v Blues (27 March 2021):
@crucial said in Chiefs v Blues (27 March 2021):
@pakman said in Chiefs v Blues (27 March 2021):
Without rewatching that, in the world of competent officials Blues won.
The GCT obstruction is pretty ludicrous. The maul laws are built around legalised obstruction. To not give that makes a mockery of a mockery. Granted, if ref had blown real time, slightly harder to complain.
As for final awarded non-try, on a close watch the ball was plainly marginally forward. It wasn't clear and obvious, and it wasn't much forward, but it WAS forward.
So the ref misses a forward pass because it wasn't clear and obvious, and awards a try. But because the forward pass wasn't clear and obvious (as it wasn't in the first place) the TMO can't overturn it.
Almost a paradox.
Two wrongs do not make a right.
The rules need to be amended to state that if there is a mistake, even if not clear and obvious, the decision is overturned.
Having said that, apalling performance by the Blue. The fact they were the legitimate winners is not excuse for the huge dropping of standards.
Some brilliantly baffling logic in that post.
It wasn’t clear and obvious but it did happen because I saw it
When you watch the overhead forensically is it clear the ball went forward. It ISN’T obvious — you have to look very carefully to see it.
Jacobson passes just after he places his right knee on ground. Arm comes up. Possibly goes forward (not clear) but not back. Ball goes forward, probably a foot.
He’s grounded so it’s not momentum.
Just wasn’t a try.
In the old days wouldn’t have been questioned and try would have stood.
But now we DO have the technology, and TMO consistently getting decisions wrong.
If ref didn’t see the offload, his opinion oughtn’t to count.
But as a Blues fan I’m almost glad they didn’t get the win, because their drop in standards didn’t deserve one.
Hate to tell you but momentum is still on the ball when a player stops.
'Clear and Obvious' was a term they started using to draw a line in the sand on decision making.
Unlike fans that will make a ruling on 'likely' or 'probable' the idea is that unless you can clearly see an obvious happening then you don't overturn a decision.
Even after viewing in over and over and frame by frame as you suggest it still isn't clear and obvious so it beggars belief that you can say that it happened. On what evidence?
It was a line ball that was easy to declare a challenge on even in real time. That still doesn't mean it happened.I suggest you apply the same rigour to the maul non-try and you will see Dalton receive the ball then unbind (or unbind just before or as he received it) the join back onto a player in front. Pretty clear and pretty obvious. He didn't keep one arm bound to the original maul and the guy in front had also unbound
@crucial said in Chiefs v Blues (27 March 2021):
@pakman said in Chiefs v Blues (27 March 2021):
@crucial said in Chiefs v Blues (27 March 2021):
@pakman said in Chiefs v Blues (27 March 2021):
Without rewatching that, in the world of competent officials Blues won.
The GCT obstruction is pretty ludicrous. The maul laws are built around legalised obstruction. To not give that makes a mockery of a mockery. Granted, if ref had blown real time, slightly harder to complain.
As for final awarded non-try, on a close watch the ball was plainly marginally forward. It wasn't clear and obvious, and it wasn't much forward, but it WAS forward.
So the ref misses a forward pass because it wasn't clear and obvious, and awards a try. But because the forward pass wasn't clear and obvious (as it wasn't in the first place) the TMO can't overturn it.
Almost a paradox.
Two wrongs do not make a right.
The rules need to be amended to state that if there is a mistake, even if not clear and obvious, the decision is overturned.
Having said that, apalling performance by the Blue. The fact they were the legitimate winners is not excuse for the huge dropping of standards.
Some brilliantly baffling logic in that post.
It wasn’t clear and obvious but it did happen because I saw it
When you watch the overhead forensically is it clear the ball went forward. It ISN’T obvious — you have to look very carefully to see it.
Jacobson passes just after he places his right knee on ground. Arm comes up. Possibly goes forward (not clear) but not back. Ball goes forward, probably a foot.
He’s grounded so it’s not momentum.
Just wasn’t a try.
In the old days wouldn’t have been questioned and try would have stood.
But now we DO have the technology, and TMO consistently getting decisions wrong.
If ref didn’t see the offload, his opinion oughtn’t to count.
But as a Blues fan I’m almost glad they didn’t get the win, because their drop in standards didn’t deserve one.
Hate to tell you but momentum is still on the ball when a player stops.
'Clear and Obvious' was a term they started using to draw a line in the sand on decision making.
Unlike fans that will make a ruling on 'likely' or 'probable' the idea is that unless you can clearly see an obvious happening then you don't overturn a decision.
Even after viewing in over and over and frame by frame as you suggest it still isn't clear and obvious so it beggars belief that you can say that it happened. On what evidence?
It was a line ball that was easy to declare a challenge on even in real time. That still doesn't mean it happened.I suggest you apply the same rigour to the maul non-try and you will see Dalton receive the ball then unbind (or unbind just before or as he received it) the join back onto a player in front. Pretty clear and pretty obvious. He didn't keep one arm bound to the original maul and the guy in front had also unbound
I am not unacquainted with physics. In this case the only relevant momentum was of Jacobson's arm.
With TMO technology it was clear but not obvious.
And not line ball but a foot forward.
Just boils down to whether we want to use technology to ensure correct decisions -- or not.
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@pakman said in Chiefs v Blues (27 March 2021):
@bones said in Chiefs v Blues (27 March 2021):
@pakman I didn't see it go forward.
You need to do play/pause repeatedly to be clear. If you watch other angles to see exactly when ball released and then do pause/play on overhead, marking where ball left hands, you’ll see it.
Ball let go a bit before five yard line and caught almost on it.
All that said and done, it’s in the book now.
Yep pakman, but if you do that and still struggling to work out if ball came out forwards or backwards the right decision was made, it has to be clearly forward to over rule the try. I think if the ref had called it no try because of forward pass it wouldn't have been over ruled either. So as a neutral I pretty content with decision.
@dan54 said in Chiefs v Blues (27 March 2021):
@pakman said in Chiefs v Blues (27 March 2021):
@bones said in Chiefs v Blues (27 March 2021):
@pakman I didn't see it go forward.
You need to do play/pause repeatedly to be clear. If you watch other angles to see exactly when ball released and then do pause/play on overhead, marking where ball left hands, you’ll see it.
Ball let go a bit before five yard line and caught almost on it.
All that said and done, it’s in the book now.
Yep pakman, but if you do that and still struggling to work out if ball came out forwards or backwards the right decision was made, it has to be clearly forward to over rule the try. I think if the ref had called it no try because of forward pass it wouldn't have been over ruled either. So as a neutral I pretty content with decision.
The ball came out forwards.
If you watch closely it is clear.
But certainly not obvious -- although that said the Blues players seemed to notice.
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@crucial said in Chiefs v Blues (27 March 2021):
@pakman said in Chiefs v Blues (27 March 2021):
@crucial said in Chiefs v Blues (27 March 2021):
@pakman said in Chiefs v Blues (27 March 2021):
Without rewatching that, in the world of competent officials Blues won.
The GCT obstruction is pretty ludicrous. The maul laws are built around legalised obstruction. To not give that makes a mockery of a mockery. Granted, if ref had blown real time, slightly harder to complain.
As for final awarded non-try, on a close watch the ball was plainly marginally forward. It wasn't clear and obvious, and it wasn't much forward, but it WAS forward.
So the ref misses a forward pass because it wasn't clear and obvious, and awards a try. But because the forward pass wasn't clear and obvious (as it wasn't in the first place) the TMO can't overturn it.
Almost a paradox.
Two wrongs do not make a right.
The rules need to be amended to state that if there is a mistake, even if not clear and obvious, the decision is overturned.
Having said that, apalling performance by the Blue. The fact they were the legitimate winners is not excuse for the huge dropping of standards.
Some brilliantly baffling logic in that post.
It wasn’t clear and obvious but it did happen because I saw it
When you watch the overhead forensically is it clear the ball went forward. It ISN’T obvious — you have to look very carefully to see it.
Jacobson passes just after he places his right knee on ground. Arm comes up. Possibly goes forward (not clear) but not back. Ball goes forward, probably a foot.
He’s grounded so it’s not momentum.
Just wasn’t a try.
In the old days wouldn’t have been questioned and try would have stood.
But now we DO have the technology, and TMO consistently getting decisions wrong.
If ref didn’t see the offload, his opinion oughtn’t to count.
But as a Blues fan I’m almost glad they didn’t get the win, because their drop in standards didn’t deserve one.
Hate to tell you but momentum is still on the ball when a player stops.
'Clear and Obvious' was a term they started using to draw a line in the sand on decision making.
Unlike fans that will make a ruling on 'likely' or 'probable' the idea is that unless you can clearly see an obvious happening then you don't overturn a decision.
Even after viewing in over and over and frame by frame as you suggest it still isn't clear and obvious so it beggars belief that you can say that it happened. On what evidence?
It was a line ball that was easy to declare a challenge on even in real time. That still doesn't mean it happened.I suggest you apply the same rigour to the maul non-try and you will see Dalton receive the ball then unbind (or unbind just before or as he received it) the join back onto a player in front. Pretty clear and pretty obvious. He didn't keep one arm bound to the original maul and the guy in front had also unbound
I am not unacquainted with physics. In this case the only relevant momentum was of Jacobson's arm.
With TMO technology it was clear but not obvious.
And not line ball but a foot forward.
Just boils down to whether we want to use technology to ensure correct decisions -- or not.
@pakman said in Chiefs v Blues (27 March 2021):
Just boils down to whether we want to use techology to ensure correct decisions -- or not.
The Chiefs would have liked said technology at Eden Park last year when Goodhue was clearly off his feet when he got the turnover on the goal line.
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The match winning try. Damien McKenzie is a good player, no doubt about it. A really good player would have passed it.
Good win Chiefs though, now if someone can beat the red team we might have a half interesting comp.
@siam said in Chiefs v Blues (27 March 2021):
The match winning try. Damien McKenzie is a good player, no doubt about it. A really good player would have passed it.
Good win Chiefs though, now if someone can beat the red team we might have a half interesting comp.
Yes I keep thinking Damien is not the guy to close out a game for the ABs
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@sparky said in Chiefs v Blues (27 March 2021):
The Blues are too ordinary at 9 and 10 to be serious title contenders.
Actually they are fine at 9 they just need to select the right players. At 10 they are average but not bad. What they do need is players to make better team decisions on attack on defence. Reiko for all is brilliance is a prime example.
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@siam said in Chiefs v Blues (27 March 2021):
The match winning try. Damien McKenzie is a good player, no doubt about it. A really good player would have passed it.
Good win Chiefs though, now if someone can beat the red team we might have a half interesting comp.
Yes I keep thinking Damien is not the guy to close out a game for the ABs
@kev said in Chiefs v Blues (27 March 2021):
@siam said in Chiefs v Blues (27 March 2021):
The match winning try. Damien McKenzie is a good player, no doubt about it. A really good player would have passed it.
Good win Chiefs though, now if someone can beat the red team we might have a half interesting comp.
Yes I keep thinking Damien is not the guy to close out a game for the ABs
i looked at that a few times hard to tell definitively. there was an overlap but defence was splinted on him and next receiver was shut down with Stevenson not even in shot
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@pakman said in Chiefs v Blues (27 March 2021):
Just boils down to whether we want to use techology to ensure correct decisions -- or not.
The Chiefs would have liked said technology at Eden Park last year when Goodhue was clearly off his feet when he got the turnover on the goal line.
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The absolute best thing about this game was that we won and that (most of) the Blues players who I want to see play well, did do so. Both Paps and Robinson were awesome, and I think that Rieko is starting to get the defensive issues sorted as a 13 (which is fucking hard). If Rieko can sort out when to distribute and do it well, he could be an absolute weapon at 13 for the ABs.
For the Chiefs, I was really impressed by the work rate of the second rowers - both of whom are really 6s, and I was happily surprised by the performance of the scrum. The lineout is still a fucking mess, and our exits are a shambles. I can't help but wonder whether we'd be doing Trask a favor by putting him at 15, but either way I'd like it if he showed bigger effort on defense - he lets through some easy ones.
@gt12 said in Chiefs v Blues (27 March 2021):
The absolute best thing about this game was that we won and that (most of) the Blues players who I want to see play well, did do so. Both Paps and Robinson were awesome, and I think that Rieko is starting to get the defensive issues sorted as a 13 (which is fucking hard). If Rieko can sort out when to distribute and do it well, he could be an absolute weapon at 13 for the ABs.
For the Chiefs, I was really impressed by the work rate of the second rowers - both of whom are really 6s, and I was happily surprised by the performance of the scrum. The lineout is still a fucking mess, and our exits are a shambles. I can't help but wonder whether we'd be doing Trask a favor by putting him at 15, but either way I'd like it if he showed bigger effort on defense - he lets through some easy ones.
To be honest I think Reiko let in the last try ( could be wrong ) by not taking Jacobsen. He is fast and creates gaps well in broken play but distribution and defence still an issue I would say. Depends what mix you want in the backline.
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Some disappointing Performances from some Blues ABs in this game
Laulala,Hodgmen,Patty T, Akira
Clarke too lacked some spark today
Sotutu got through a large amount of work not always productive,Dalton P was massive
Reiko even though his outside vision is not there his pace in defence was very good today he shut a lot down from behind.
Plummer was good
Robinson and Ofa big impact of the benchJacobsen,Taukeiheo,McKenzie, Dodds,Ah Kuoi,Tupaea
We’re massive for the chiefs
Trask also I though went well@chris said in Chiefs v Blues (27 March 2021):
Some disappointing Performances from some Blues ABs in this game
Laulala,Hodgmen,Patty T, Akira
Clarke too lacked some spark today
Sotutu got through a large amount of work not always productive,Dalton P was massive
Reiko even though his outside vision is not there his pace in defence was very good today he shut a lot down from behind.
Plummer was good
Robinson and Ofa big impact of the benchJacobsen,Taukeiheo,McKenzie, Dodds,Ah Kuoi,Tupaea
We’re massive for the chiefs
Trask also I though went wellYou would have to say that the front 5 for the Blues did not dominate as they should have which given the number of All Blacks was a big win for the Chiefs. That said the Blues had the winning of the game but were not clinical. Same with Crusaders. They have to take their points (not believe their press), execute better in lineouts/ scrums and make better passing and defensive decisions. 2 or 3 better of these and they win with a margin.
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just watched a few bits in the replay. Key moments, from the end backwards
The alst pass that got reviewed - flat as anything, no problem. It's fine
Hot take on Dalton: he knocks the ball towards his own goalline. Play on
I know why the ref blew it (looked bad) but the direction of the ball is pretty clear. Arguably scrum at worst. Interesting the ref changed his decision to a penalty after a timeout ... was there a call from upstairs?Ruled out maul try by the Blues. I'm not an expert in mauls, as only watching rugby for 30 years, so god knows what the laws are any more. Ref seems keen on the moment the ball gets transferred from the lineout jumper - presumably that's the moment the maul starts. @crucial if that's the criteria for offside, there won't be many mauls left standing - transferring the ball backwards is very standard.
GCT looked to be marginally bound - someone had their arm aruond him the whole time. Personally, I think it shoudl have stood, absent an interpretation I'm not aware of right now. To a non-ref, it looks like everyone binds together as the lineout ends, and drives forward as a unit, the maul splinters and then some of the Blues forwards go forward,Still, it's in the books now.
Overall, looks to me liek both sides created enough opportunities to win the game, but didn't execute. Blues very flat compared to last week - we've played pretty well 3 weeks, and choose to have a stinker against a side that's getting up. Chiefs get two miracle wins and may go on to burgle a path to the fina. That's rugby eh, Wales just entered the chat
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@yeetyaah said in Chiefs v Blues (27 March 2021):
Deliberate knock down is a yellow
No it's not.
Deliberate knock forward
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@yeetyaah said in Chiefs v Blues (27 March 2021):
Deliberate knock down is a yellow
No it's not.
Deliberate knock forward
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@yeetyaah said in Chiefs v Blues (27 March 2021):
Is a deliberate knock down not a yellow anymore? Blatant from Dalton.
Please. Wrong words are actual violence.
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Like last season, we lose to the Crusaders and then back it up with another loss. It took us a couple of games to recover after that loss.
Keen to see a few changes in the line-up next week. Some big calls to be made but some players need to be put on notice.
Wouldn't mind us going back to the conventional 5:3 split on the bench. I don't think Choat got on last night?
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@kiwimurph The more the competition moves forward the more he is being shown up and if the Blues forwards aren’t going forward it is more obvious. Just wondering are all our first fives midgets? Mounga gets away with it because he is quick and can break the line with his elusiveness. The rest appear to be excellent NPC players.
@broughie said in Chiefs v Blues (27 March 2021):
@kiwimurph The more the competition moves forward the more he is being shown up and if the Blues forwards aren’t going forward it is more obvious. Just wondering are all our first fives midgets? Mounga gets away with it because he is quick and can break the line with his elusiveness. The rest appear to be excellent NPC players.
May help that his forward pack is kinda ok
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just watched a few bits in the replay. Key moments, from the end backwards
The alst pass that got reviewed - flat as anything, no problem. It's fine
Hot take on Dalton: he knocks the ball towards his own goalline. Play on
I know why the ref blew it (looked bad) but the direction of the ball is pretty clear. Arguably scrum at worst. Interesting the ref changed his decision to a penalty after a timeout ... was there a call from upstairs?Ruled out maul try by the Blues. I'm not an expert in mauls, as only watching rugby for 30 years, so god knows what the laws are any more. Ref seems keen on the moment the ball gets transferred from the lineout jumper - presumably that's the moment the maul starts. @crucial if that's the criteria for offside, there won't be many mauls left standing - transferring the ball backwards is very standard.
GCT looked to be marginally bound - someone had their arm aruond him the whole time. Personally, I think it shoudl have stood, absent an interpretation I'm not aware of right now. To a non-ref, it looks like everyone binds together as the lineout ends, and drives forward as a unit, the maul splinters and then some of the Blues forwards go forward,Still, it's in the books now.
Overall, looks to me liek both sides created enough opportunities to win the game, but didn't execute. Blues very flat compared to last week - we've played pretty well 3 weeks, and choose to have a stinker against a side that's getting up. Chiefs get two miracle wins and may go on to burgle a path to the fina. That's rugby eh, Wales just entered the chat
@nzzp said in Chiefs v Blues (27 March 2021):
Ruled out maul try by the Blues. I'm not an expert in mauls, as only watching rugby for 30 years, so god knows what the laws are any more. Ref seems keen on the moment the ball gets transferred from the lineout jumper - presumably that's the moment the maul starts. @crucial if that's the criteria for offside, there won't be many mauls left standing - transferring the ball backwards is very standard.
GCT looked to be marginally bound - someone had their arm aruond him the whole time. Personally, I think it shoudl have stood, absent an interpretation I'm not aware of right now. To a non-ref, it looks like everyone binds together as the lineout ends, and drives forward as a unit, the maul splinters and then some of the Blues forwards go forward,I think the words used by the ref are misleading people although ultimately he called obstruction.
The reason he wanted to see the moment of transfer was to see who was bound at that time.
GCT was bound at that time so was part of the 'original' maul.
DP wasn't bound as he received the ball or unbound just as he received it. By then binding back onto GCT he rejoined a player in front which is obstruction.
A more obvious example of this ruling is when at a line out the ball is passed back to a playing coming in (unbound) who then joins onto the players in front. For a moment that player is free to be tackled but being blocked by his team mates in front.
DP's one was slightly different in that he was bound then unbound (able to be tackled) then rebound.
I'd have to watch again to see if I got that 100% right though. He could also have decided that GCT unbound for a moment in which case he becomes offside if he then interferes with play.
Either is momentary which brings up the bugbear of consistency from refs in what constitutes a bind. Don't even get me started on players snaking out a ruck with only fingers on the back of the guy in front. If I was near that ruck I'd be making a play for it while yelling 'he isn't bound sir'
