Springboks v British & Irish Lions III
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@snowy said in Springboks v British & Irish Lions III:
@victor-meldrew said in Springboks v British & Irish Lions III:
Even Chiefs supporters think Foster should go.
I would say a large number of Chiefs fans think he should go. They had more chance of winning Lotto than a title when he was there.
Even Chiefs supporters? I'd say we are the front runners in
a) not wanting him appointed to the AB coaching panel in the first place
b) not wanting him as head coach
c) wanting him to go !Saturdays game had so many parallels to the chiefs era under him. Here's a few
- Stupid penalties given away for no reason as not under pressure
- Lack of any sort of game plan that made any sense
- 20 minutes of being on the front foot, scoring good points and dominating
- 20 minutes of being asleep on the pitch.
@majorrage said in Springboks v British & Irish Lions III:
@snowy said in Springboks v British & Irish Lions III:
@victor-meldrew said in Springboks v British & Irish Lions III:
Even Chiefs supporters think Foster should go.
I would say a large number of Chiefs fans think he should go. They had more chance of winning Lotto than a title when he was there.
Even Chiefs supporters? I'd say we are the front runners in
a) not wanting him appointed to the AB coaching panel in the first place
b) not wanting him as head coach
c) wanting him to go !Saturdays game had so many parallels to the chiefs era under him. Here's a few
- Stupid penalties given away for no reason as not under pressure
- Lack of any sort of game plan that made any sense
- 20 minutes of being on the front foot, scoring good points and dominating
- 20 minutes of being asleep on the pitch.
That was my point to Victor. Chiefs fans would be at the front of the lynch mob.
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@victor-meldrew said in Springboks v British & Irish Lions III:
@pakman said in Springboks v British & Irish Lions III:
https://amp.rugbyonslaught.com/the-moment-that-finally-proved-this-lions-tour-was-a-farce/
Can't make out if that is a parody site or if it simply has a problem with Sth African rugby. Headline after headline about how evil the Boks are and why the result of the Lions tour should be overturned in the LIons favour.
There are a few sites that pop up on my fb feed and this is one of them. Without exception they are a pile of shite. Jingoistic, one eyed, myopic, biased with click bait headlines that usually bear little resemblance to the pathetic article.
Not a parody unfortunately, but you are excused for asking same!
@catogrande said in Springboks v British & Irish Lions III:
Without exception they are a pile of shite. Jingoistic, one eyed, myopic, biased with click bait headlines that usually bear little resemblance to the pathetic article.
That certainly describes Rugby Onslaught. Best to avoid.
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Now the stories are coming out. Apparently on the flight home Biggar got into the free booze a bit too much and started talking himself up. Without being asked he introduced himself to the guy in the next seat saying “I’m Mike Biggar, British & Irish Lions test fly half”. “yes” the answer came back. “I recognise you. My name is Robbie Henshaw”.
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Now the stories are coming out. Apparently on the flight home Biggar got into the free booze a bit too much and started talking himself up. Without being asked he introduced himself to the guy in the next seat saying “I’m Mike Biggar, British & Irish Lions test fly half”. “yes” the answer came back. “I recognise you. My name is Robbie Henshaw”.
@catogrande the next story making the rounds is that he tried introducing himself to the seat on the othe side. As luck would have it that was occupied by his brother accompanying him on the trip home.
So now the story gets Biggar and Biggar.
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Now the stories are coming out. Apparently on the flight home Biggar got into the free booze a bit too much and started talking himself up. Without being asked he introduced himself to the guy in the next seat saying “I’m Mike Biggar, British & Irish Lions test fly half”. “yes” the answer came back. “I recognise you. My name is Robbie Henshaw”.
@catogrande everybody likes Mike.
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Now the stories are coming out. Apparently on the flight home Biggar got into the free booze a bit too much and started talking himself up. Without being asked he introduced himself to the guy in the next seat saying “I’m Mike Biggar, British & Irish Lions test fly half”. “yes” the answer came back. “I recognise you. My name is Robbie Henshaw”.
@catogrande said in Springboks v British & Irish Lions III:
Now the stories are coming out. Apparently on the flight home Biggar got into the free booze a bit too much and started talking himself up. Without being asked he introduced himself to the guy in the next seat saying “I’m Mike Biggar, British & Irish Lions test fly half”. “yes” the answer came back. “I recognise you. My name is Robbie Henshaw”.
He was so pissed that he forgot his position ? I guess we can cut him some slack, he is in his 70s after all.
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@catogrande said in Springboks v British & Irish Lions III:
Now the stories are coming out. Apparently on the flight home Biggar got into the free booze a bit too much and started talking himself up. Without being asked he introduced himself to the guy in the next seat saying “I’m Mike Biggar, British & Irish Lions test fly half”. “yes” the answer came back. “I recognise you. My name is Robbie Henshaw”.
He was so pissed that he forgot his position ? I guess we can cut him some slack, he is in his 70s after all.
@gibbonrib said in Springboks v British & Irish Lions III:
@catogrande said in Springboks v British & Irish Lions III:
Now the stories are coming out. Apparently on the flight home Biggar got into the free booze a bit too much and started talking himself up. Without being asked he introduced himself to the guy in the next seat saying “I’m Mike Biggar, British & Irish Lions test fly half”. “yes” the answer came back. “I recognise you. My name is Robbie Henshaw”.
He was so pissed that he forgot his position ? I guess we can cut him some slack, he is in his 70s after all.
Bugger. I got the wrong
buggerI mean Biggar -
@gibbonrib said in Springboks v British & Irish Lions III:
@catogrande said in Springboks v British & Irish Lions III:
Now the stories are coming out. Apparently on the flight home Biggar got into the free booze a bit too much and started talking himself up. Without being asked he introduced himself to the guy in the next seat saying “I’m Mike Biggar, British & Irish Lions test fly half”. “yes” the answer came back. “I recognise you. My name is Robbie Henshaw”.
He was so pissed that he forgot his position ? I guess we can cut him some slack, he is in his 70s after all.
Bugger. I got the wrong
buggerI mean Biggar@catogrande said in Springboks v British & Irish Lions III:
@gibbonrib said in Springboks v British & Irish Lions III:
@catogrande said in Springboks v British & Irish Lions III:
Now the stories are coming out. Apparently on the flight home Biggar got into the free booze a bit too much and started talking himself up. Without being asked he introduced himself to the guy in the next seat saying “I’m Mike Biggar, British & Irish Lions test fly half”. “yes” the answer came back. “I recognise you. My name is Robbie Henshaw”.
He was so pissed that he forgot his position ? I guess we can cut him some slack, he is in his 70s after all.
Bugger. I got the wrong
buggerI mean BiggarYou’ve made Biggar mistakes.
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@catogrande said in Springboks v British & Irish Lions III:
@gibbonrib said in Springboks v British & Irish Lions III:
@catogrande said in Springboks v British & Irish Lions III:
Now the stories are coming out. Apparently on the flight home Biggar got into the free booze a bit too much and started talking himself up. Without being asked he introduced himself to the guy in the next seat saying “I’m Mike Biggar, British & Irish Lions test fly half”. “yes” the answer came back. “I recognise you. My name is Robbie Henshaw”.
He was so pissed that he forgot his position ? I guess we can cut him some slack, he is in his 70s after all.
Bugger. I got the wrong
buggerI mean BiggarYou’ve made Biggar mistakes.
@pakman said in Springboks v British & Irish Lions III:
@catogrande said in Springboks v British & Irish Lions III:
@gibbonrib said in Springboks v British & Irish Lions III:
@catogrande said in Springboks v British & Irish Lions III:
Now the stories are coming out. Apparently on the flight home Biggar got into the free booze a bit too much and started talking himself up. Without being asked he introduced himself to the guy in the next seat saying “I’m Mike Biggar, British & Irish Lions test fly half”. “yes” the answer came back. “I recognise you. My name is Robbie Henshaw”.
He was so pissed that he forgot his position ? I guess we can cut him some slack, he is in his 70s after all.
Bugger. I got the wrong
buggerI mean BiggarYou’ve made Biggar mistakes.
But buggered if I can remember when.
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Holy fucking shit, I thought the journalist misrepresented the finding, so I checked the WR website.
In short, they accept that there was bite-like injury to Mostert, the only possible source of the injury was Sinckler, but intention was not proven to their satisfaction.
Now I don't mean to suggest that the SC who chaired the hearing is a blithering incompetent, rather that he would have failed law of evidence at any competent university.
The standard (quoted in the decision) is that the cited player must show on the balance of probabilities that the citation must not be upheld.
So the bite-like injury was either intentional or not. I would suggest that a bite is more likely to be intentional than not, but even if the panel doesn't agree, there needs to be evidence, any evidence, to support the conclusion that it was not intentional. The standard they used here was the "beyond a reasonable doubt", which basically requires all reasonable alternatives explanations to be dismissed.
I don't know if Sinckler bit Mostert and I understand the panel not wanting to find a player guilty with limited evidence, but the mental gymnastics that they had to go through to justify their finding is absurd. The regulations, as written, are maybe wrong and if WR wants to maintain some credibility they should rewrite them ASAP.
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Holy fucking shit, I thought the journalist misrepresented the finding, so I checked the WR website.
In short, they accept that there was bite-like injury to Mostert, the only possible source of the injury was Sinckler, but intention was not proven to their satisfaction.
Now I don't mean to suggest that the SC who chaired the hearing is a blithering incompetent, rather that he would have failed law of evidence at any competent university.
The standard (quoted in the decision) is that the cited player must show on the balance of probabilities that the citation must not be upheld.
So the bite-like injury was either intentional or not. I would suggest that a bite is more likely to be intentional than not, but even if the panel doesn't agree, there needs to be evidence, any evidence, to support the conclusion that it was not intentional. The standard they used here was the "beyond a reasonable doubt", which basically requires all reasonable alternatives explanations to be dismissed.
I don't know if Sinckler bit Mostert and I understand the panel not wanting to find a player guilty with limited evidence, but the mental gymnastics that they had to go through to justify their finding is absurd. The regulations, as written, are maybe wrong and if WR wants to maintain some credibility they should rewrite them ASAP.
@sidbarret said in Springboks v British & Irish Lions III:
Holy fucking shit, I thought the journalist misrepresented the finding, so I checked the WR website.
In short, they accept that there was bite-like injury to Mostert, the only possible source of the injury was Sinckler, but intention was not proven to their satisfaction.
Now I don't mean to suggest that the SC who chaired the hearing is a blithering incompetent, rather that he would have failed law of evidence at any competent university.
The standard (quoted in the decision) is that the cited player must show on the balance of probabilities that the citation must not be upheld.
So the bite-like injury was either intentional or not. I would suggest that a bite is more likely to be intentional than not, but even if the panel doesn't agree, there needs to be evidence, any evidence, to support the conclusion that it was not intentional. The standard they used here was the "beyond a reasonable doubt", which basically requires all reasonable alternatives explanations to be dismissed.
I don't know if Sinckler bit Mostert and I understand the panel not wanting to find a player guilty with limited evidence, but the mental gymnastics that they had to go through to justify their finding is absurd. The regulations, as written, are maybe wrong and if WR wants to maintain some credibility they should rewrite them ASAP.
Like you, I do not know if Sinckler did bite Mostert or not but it seems the evidence was not conclusive enough to deem it was an actual bite. The SA "expert" admitted he was not qualified to judge this issue. The BILs expert was and his evidence (shown in the wider case details) was as follows:-
"The mark demonstrates small linear elements that are consistent with superficial contact by the biting edges of human upper or lower front teeth. The mark does not demonstrate the features of the biting edges of individual upper or lower front teeth. Consequently, it is not possible to state with certainty which part of the mark was caused by a specific upper or lower front tooth.
The arrangement of the linear elements is consistent with the very slight movement of the biting edges of upper or lower front teeth on the surface of the skin.
The appearance of the mark on the right forearm of Franco Mostert supports the opinion that the mark was caused by either the very slight movement of the teeth or the very slight movement of the skin or a combination of both mechanisms. It is not possible to identify which of the three possible mechanisms of contact was responsible for the mark.
It is important to note that the mark does not demonstrate any of the features of an incisive bite mark. The appearance of the mark is consistent with a recent injury.
The degree of soft tissue injury in the mark is consistent with mild force between the biting edges of upper or lower front teeth and the skin.
Conclusions
The mark referred to in the conclusions means the mark on the right forearm of Franco Mostert.- In my opinion, the mark was caused by superficial contact with human teeth.
- In my opinion, it is not possible to identify the mechanism of contact that caused the mark.
- The mark does not demonstrate the features of an incisive bite mark.
- The appearance of the mark is consistent with a recent injury.
- The degree of soft tissue injury in the mark is consistent with mild force between the biting edges of upper
or lower front teeth and the skin."
So, it seems the panel did have some evidence to support their decision.
Edit: Like you, I am probably of the "if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it is most likely a duck". However that is not sufficient to hang someone with.
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Top lineout photo
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Maro Itoje has hit 132 rucks for the Lions in 2021, more than any other player; no Lion has won more turnovers than Itoje during this year’s tour (5), including four in the BoksvLions Test series – twice as many as any other player.
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Maro Itoje has hit 132 rucks for the Lions in 2021, more than any other player; no Lion has won more turnovers than Itoje during this year’s tour (5), including four in the BoksvLions Test series – twice as many as any other player.
@daffy-jaffy said in Springboks v British & Irish Lions III:
Maro Itoje has hit 132 rucks for the Lions in 2021, more than any other player; no Lion has won more turnovers than Itoje during this year’s tour (5), including four in the BoksvLions Test series – twice as many as any other player.
That’s pretty cool seeing it depicted like that. From the armchair view he certainly had a very good series in terms of prominent involvement in each test and those stats confirm that.
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@sidbarret said in Springboks v British & Irish Lions III:
Holy fucking shit, I thought the journalist misrepresented the finding, so I checked the WR website.
In short, they accept that there was bite-like injury to Mostert, the only possible source of the injury was Sinckler, but intention was not proven to their satisfaction.
Now I don't mean to suggest that the SC who chaired the hearing is a blithering incompetent, rather that he would have failed law of evidence at any competent university.
The standard (quoted in the decision) is that the cited player must show on the balance of probabilities that the citation must not be upheld.
So the bite-like injury was either intentional or not. I would suggest that a bite is more likely to be intentional than not, but even if the panel doesn't agree, there needs to be evidence, any evidence, to support the conclusion that it was not intentional. The standard they used here was the "beyond a reasonable doubt", which basically requires all reasonable alternatives explanations to be dismissed.
I don't know if Sinckler bit Mostert and I understand the panel not wanting to find a player guilty with limited evidence, but the mental gymnastics that they had to go through to justify their finding is absurd. The regulations, as written, are maybe wrong and if WR wants to maintain some credibility they should rewrite them ASAP.
Like you, I do not know if Sinckler did bite Mostert or not but it seems the evidence was not conclusive enough to deem it was an actual bite. The SA "expert" admitted he was not qualified to judge this issue. The BILs expert was and his evidence (shown in the wider case details) was as follows:-
"The mark demonstrates small linear elements that are consistent with superficial contact by the biting edges of human upper or lower front teeth. The mark does not demonstrate the features of the biting edges of individual upper or lower front teeth. Consequently, it is not possible to state with certainty which part of the mark was caused by a specific upper or lower front tooth.
The arrangement of the linear elements is consistent with the very slight movement of the biting edges of upper or lower front teeth on the surface of the skin.
The appearance of the mark on the right forearm of Franco Mostert supports the opinion that the mark was caused by either the very slight movement of the teeth or the very slight movement of the skin or a combination of both mechanisms. It is not possible to identify which of the three possible mechanisms of contact was responsible for the mark.
It is important to note that the mark does not demonstrate any of the features of an incisive bite mark. The appearance of the mark is consistent with a recent injury.
The degree of soft tissue injury in the mark is consistent with mild force between the biting edges of upper or lower front teeth and the skin.
Conclusions
The mark referred to in the conclusions means the mark on the right forearm of Franco Mostert.- In my opinion, the mark was caused by superficial contact with human teeth.
- In my opinion, it is not possible to identify the mechanism of contact that caused the mark.
- The mark does not demonstrate the features of an incisive bite mark.
- The appearance of the mark is consistent with a recent injury.
- The degree of soft tissue injury in the mark is consistent with mild force between the biting edges of upper
or lower front teeth and the skin."
So, it seems the panel did have some evidence to support their decision.
Edit: Like you, I am probably of the "if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it is most likely a duck". However that is not sufficient to hang someone with.
@catogrande it really depends whether you go with point two or point three of the quoted bit. Incisive is not defined in the report so it is kinda difficult interpret what is meant by point three.
Again I don't care what the outcome was and I am not saying Sinckler needed to be banned or anything, but the application of the laws are just far removed from the way they are written. This seems like such "rugby" decision. The laws says X, but in this case we are going to ignore that and rule what we think is fair.
If the intention is that guilt must be proven, then amend the laws to actually say that instead of contorting yourself into knots to get the result you think is right.
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Maro Itoje has hit 132 rucks for the Lions in 2021, more than any other player; no Lion has won more turnovers than Itoje during this year’s tour (5), including four in the BoksvLions Test series – twice as many as any other player.
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@daffy-jaffy do you have a link to the full stats, I read somewhere that Itoje only made 4 tackles in the second game and I thought he was very quiet in game 2 and 3.
@sidbarret I found this info on a reddit rugby feed. Unable to find a link on google to the original data site . Sorry.
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Been a long time since I posted here - mainly because the Boks have not been in action and, of course, we (living down here in Africa's backside) have been just too jealous of all the rugby you guys have had to enjoy.
Our local stuff has been shite . . and that's kind of the point - and why I think some of the criticism, while partially valid, needs to be seen in context.
On the back of that I sent the below to Ben Smith who writes for rugbypass.com - just to highlight a few points from our side.
Here we go
Hey there Ben, hope you are well. I read your latest dismissal of the Boks achievement in winning the Lions series (which I told you we’d win 2-1 because we have to) – and, again, while you have some valid points (of course we want to score more tries) I just want to raise the following with you.
• It’s a miracle we got up to win this series. Considering:
o the state of the local game (piss poor and nowhere near your Super Rugby or other European championships)
o the lack of game time as a team
o disrupted prep (for both sides but way more for us)• Yes, we’ve not evolved our game since the RWC, yes 100%
o we’ve not had a chance to do so and were never going to try and play any other style against the Lions
o By the way, I don’t recall the ABs playing too expansive in the last Lions series, either• For some of our players this Rugby champs is probably their swansong, with younger, faster, more exciting players in the squad that will be blood in the upcoming champs and end of year tour
o Stand by for action mate• Lastly, my bud, it takes great character to get up against the odds the boks have to win the championships we have
o As said before, a little more respect from your side of the world is probably deserved – after all – we continue to have it for you?. . .
So what you think guys? Am I being unreasonable? I think not.
Have a good one, see you in a few weeks
B -
@catogrande it really depends whether you go with point two or point three of the quoted bit. Incisive is not defined in the report so it is kinda difficult interpret what is meant by point three.
Again I don't care what the outcome was and I am not saying Sinckler needed to be banned or anything, but the application of the laws are just far removed from the way they are written. This seems like such "rugby" decision. The laws says X, but in this case we are going to ignore that and rule what we think is fair.
If the intention is that guilt must be proven, then amend the laws to actually say that instead of contorting yourself into knots to get the result you think is right.
Yeah a bit of a buggers muddle alright. My post though was meant to show that the panel DID have some evidence to go on. Maybe if SA had brought in an actual expert to gainsay what the BIL's expert was saying we might have a had a different outcome. But having seen the expert witness report I cannot see how the panel could have gone any other way with the result given that there was nothing substantial to counter the argument.
