Wallabies vs Springboks I
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The other thing about Eddie's book: rugby was generally a niche sport in Australia in the 70s, right up until a handful of unfancied Indigenous and lower socio-economic kids from Matraville High started whipping much more fancied schools with an exciting brand of running rugby that continued on into their senior years. Mark Ella played First Grade from a very young age and Randwick started putting teams away with big scorelines, drawing media attention that never really existed.
It reinforces just how recent Australia's rugby success is, and how it comes in fits and starts. The 1979 Bledisloe win barely raised an eyebrow, but the 1984 Grand Slam, the 1991 RWC win, the Eales/Macqueen era... that's all the last 40 years and hardly consistent. We were a rugby backwater losing to Tonga in the 70s and were plucky underdogs on tour pretty much all through Wallaby history. At different points an amazing group of players have come together to make it look better than it really was.
My point is this: Australian rugby has changed very little in its foundations the last 50 years besides the introduction of professional rugby, and the establishment of the Super Rugby competition. The schools system has shrunk, and club rugby has faded in both importance and capability to the modern game.
The opportunity is there to improve everything about the game in this nation from juniors up through schools and club, to help with recruitment, retention, and interest. Fixing the pro game isn't actually the priority - everything that feeds it needs addressing.
@nta said in Wallabies vs Springboks I:
The opportunity is there to improve everything about the game in this nation from juniors up through schools and club, to help with recruitment, retention, and interest. Fixing the pro game isn't actually the priority - everything that feeds it needs addressing.
Love him or hate him, Eddie has a very shrewd and very non-BS rugby brain.
I think Australian rugby needs to focus (ie $$$) foremost on talent/ talent retention rather than paying Hooper megabucks or, more megabucks to say bring Skelton back from overseas. Neither of which will improve Australian rugby results in the medium or long-term. Or even the short-term tbh?
It's hard to accept but England, Wales and Ireland have caught up tactically (by importing coaching talent, for sure!), on fitness, and England and Ireland at least have very very strong foundations. So add the ABs and Boks plus a wave of young talent in France means the Wallabies hover between 5-7th in the world for now.
Which is sad because of all teams other than the ABs, Australia traditionally want to play rugby the way it's supposed to be played.
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@nta said in Wallabies vs Springboks I:
The opportunity is there to improve everything about the game in this nation from juniors up through schools and club, to help with recruitment, retention, and interest. Fixing the pro game isn't actually the priority - everything that feeds it needs addressing.
Love him or hate him, Eddie has a very shrewd and very non-BS rugby brain.
I think Australian rugby needs to focus (ie $$$) foremost on talent/ talent retention rather than paying Hooper megabucks or, more megabucks to say bring Skelton back from overseas. Neither of which will improve Australian rugby results in the medium or long-term. Or even the short-term tbh?
It's hard to accept but England, Wales and Ireland have caught up tactically (by importing coaching talent, for sure!), on fitness, and England and Ireland at least have very very strong foundations. So add the ABs and Boks plus a wave of young talent in France means the Wallabies hover between 5-7th in the world for now.
Which is sad because of all teams other than the ABs, Australia traditionally want to play rugby the way it's supposed to be played.
@landp said in Wallabies vs Springboks I:
So add the ABs and Boks plus a wave of young talent in France means the Wallabies hover between 5-7th in the world for now.
And, if we shrink our super Rugby presence, we will be lucky to hold onto anything inside the top 10.
We need to keep the professional footprint we have, in order to keep the money we have, in order to invest in the grassroots properly and eventually justify the footprint.
If we shrink, the money shrinks, the grassroots go untended, and the game heads back to pre-professional levels.
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@landp said in Wallabies vs Springboks I:
So add the ABs and Boks plus a wave of young talent in France means the Wallabies hover between 5-7th in the world for now.
And, if we shrink our super Rugby presence, we will be lucky to hold onto anything inside the top 10.
We need to keep the professional footprint we have, in order to keep the money we have, in order to invest in the grassroots properly and eventually justify the footprint.
If we shrink, the money shrinks, the grassroots go untended, and the game heads back to pre-professional levels.
@nta said in Wallabies vs Springboks I:
@landp said in Wallabies vs Springboks I:
So add the ABs and Boks plus a wave of young talent in France means the Wallabies hover between 5-7th in the world for now.
And, if we shrink our super Rugby presence, we will be lucky to hold onto anything inside the top 10.
We need to keep the professional footprint we have, in order to keep the money we have, in order to invest in the grassroots properly and eventually justify the footprint.
If we shrink, the money shrinks, the grassroots go untended, and the game heads back to pre-professional levels.
Yeah, I think NZR's initial SR proposal was essentially a clumsy power grab gambit and damaging to Australian rugby. What's in the best interest of New Zealand rugby is almost certainly not - for now - in the best interest of Australia.
The real problem is the expectation that the Wallabies are "normally" a top 3 side and I don't think that's sustainable these day. Needs investment lower down, not short-term measures like re-importing overseas players (unless value is reasonable) or pie-in-the-sky ideas like regional draft systems or allowing ABs to play for Australian franchises ... which won't be accepted by NZR anyway and would - again - dilute pathways for aussie players.
Using (long-term, locked in) private investment by either NZR or Australia to pay players more (short term looking) will be imho a one-way death spiral. It only makes sense if you really know HOW your partner can improve revenue/profit in a way you cannot currently.
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@landp said in Wallabies vs Springboks I:
So add the ABs and Boks plus a wave of young talent in France means the Wallabies hover between 5-7th in the world for now.
And, if we shrink our super Rugby presence, we will be lucky to hold onto anything inside the top 10.
We need to keep the professional footprint we have, in order to keep the money we have, in order to invest in the grassroots properly and eventually justify the footprint.
If we shrink, the money shrinks, the grassroots go untended, and the game heads back to pre-professional levels.
@nta said in Wallabies vs Springboks I:
@landp said in Wallabies vs Springboks I:
So add the ABs and Boks plus a wave of young talent in France means the Wallabies hover between 5-7th in the world for now.
And, if we shrink our super Rugby presence, we will be lucky to hold onto anything inside the top 10.
We need to keep the professional footprint we have, in order to keep the money we have, in order to invest in the grassroots properly and eventually justify the footprint.
If we shrink, the money shrinks, the grassroots go untended, and the game heads back to pre-professional levels.
On the bright side you'll be eligible for WR development funding.
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@nzzp said in Wallabies vs Springboks I:
@duluth said in Wallabies vs Springboks I:
I didn't know the run was that bad. That makes a Bok win even more likely - they are overdue
Apparently the Bokke have won 3 of the last 23 in Australia. I'm frankly astonished - not sure why they play so poorly, but good luck Australia. Hopefully a cracking game
The main reason was around their fitness and defence - yeah they'd nail us at set piece but run those Bok teams around a bit and they'd run out of puff. Also the Saffer-away-from-home factor seemed to play a part. They are usually OK in Perthfontein.
There was a lot of political pressure to transform in that mid-decade run as well.
@nta said in Wallabies vs Springboks I:
@nzzp said in Wallabies vs Springboks I:
@duluth said in Wallabies vs Springboks I:
I didn't know the run was that bad. That makes a Bok win even more likely - they are overdue
Apparently the Bokke have won 3 of the last 23 in Australia. I'm frankly astonished - not sure why they play so poorly, but good luck Australia. Hopefully a cracking game
The main reason was around their fitness and defence - yeah they'd nail us at set piece but run those Bok teams around a bit and they'd run out of puff. Also the Saffer-away-from-home factor seemed to play a part. They are usually OK in Perthfontein.
There was a lot of political pressure to transform in that mid-decade run as well.
Going by the team that won the RWC they should have transformed quicker.
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@nta said in Wallabies vs Springboks I:
@nzzp said in Wallabies vs Springboks I:
@duluth said in Wallabies vs Springboks I:
I didn't know the run was that bad. That makes a Bok win even more likely - they are overdue
Apparently the Bokke have won 3 of the last 23 in Australia. I'm frankly astonished - not sure why they play so poorly, but good luck Australia. Hopefully a cracking game
The main reason was around their fitness and defence - yeah they'd nail us at set piece but run those Bok teams around a bit and they'd run out of puff. Also the Saffer-away-from-home factor seemed to play a part. They are usually OK in Perthfontein.
There was a lot of political pressure to transform in that mid-decade run as well.
Going by the team that won the RWC they should have transformed quicker.
@nepia said in Wallabies vs Springboks I:
@nta said in Wallabies vs Springboks I:
@nzzp said in Wallabies vs Springboks I:
@duluth said in Wallabies vs Springboks I:
I didn't know the run was that bad. That makes a Bok win even more likely - they are overdue
Apparently the Bokke have won 3 of the last 23 in Australia. I'm frankly astonished - not sure why they play so poorly, but good luck Australia. Hopefully a cracking game
The main reason was around their fitness and defence - yeah they'd nail us at set piece but run those Bok teams around a bit and they'd run out of puff. Also the Saffer-away-from-home factor seemed to play a part. They are usually OK in Perthfontein.
There was a lot of political pressure to transform in that mid-decade run as well.
Going by the team that won the RWC they should have transformed quicker.
Perhaps, but the systems weren't quite there. They were told to magic up a group of transformational players and it was a few years early.
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I've watched Bledisloe 3 a couple of times but with my AB eye-patch on :winking_face:
I don't really get the Aussie tactics. Playing the AB's at their own game as they did seems insane, the result was pretty much what you'd expect.
Especially with the Boks next up, why did they not try a tighter more set-piece (yes defensive) orientated game. Perhaps it would have been damage limitation but occasionally you get lucky. The aussie backs look either pretty average or pretty inexperienced (or both) at the moment.
For all the hyping of Tate McDermott, he has a slow pass with limited range. And his running game doesn't bring others into play ... perhaps says more about aussie team than him. Noah Lolisio may be good in time but in NZ rugby he would probably be treated more like Zarn Sullivan i.e. give him time to develop (and Zarn, from what I've seen, may have that ultimate gift for a 10, he always seems to have time).
I'd have Nick White at 9 versus the Boks. Decent pass. Brings his forwards in better. Better kicking game. There are no decent options at 10 until JOC is back and JOC is still only a safe pair of hands at 10.
I don't envy Dave Rennie tbh.
@landp said in Wallabies vs Springboks I:
For all the hyping of Tate McDermott, he has a slow pass with limited range. And his running game doesn't bring others into play ... perhaps says more about aussie team than him.
If I was Wallaby halfback and in 3 games there were 5 or 6 intercepts I'd be limiting my passes as well..
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@landp said in Wallabies vs Springboks I:
For all the hyping of Tate McDermott, he has a slow pass with limited range. And his running game doesn't bring others into play ... perhaps says more about aussie team than him.
If I was Wallaby halfback and in 3 games there were 5 or 6 intercepts I'd be limiting my passes as well..
@nostrildamus :face_with_tears_of_joy: :face_with_tears_of_joy: :face_with_tears_of_joy:
Dave Rennie will be grey by the RWC for sure.
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Sunday night, 10pm NZT.
Not happening ... would love to, but need to sleep for Monday. Sad face.
@nzzp said in Wallabies vs Springboks I:
Sunday night, 10pm NZT.
Not happening ... would love to, but need to sleep for Monday. Sad face.
Bro, live a little, have a late one. It’s only Monday.
Looking forward to the test match. For whatever reason the Springboks don’t have a great travelling record to Oz and NZ no matter how good the Boks are going.
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SA turned it around by accessing the giant pool of talent they had left untouched in Europe.
@derpus said in Wallabies vs Springboks I:
SA turned it around by accessing the giant pool of talent they had left untouched in Europe.
I don't think it's sustainable long term for the Boks. Their domestic rugby is suffering as a result of their exodus and having to parachute players from all over the world at disparate times is going to lead to inconsistent preparation leading to inconsistent performances over time.
If the Wallabies can catch their kicks then they'll give themselves a chance. Also there's got to be some sort of backlash from the poundings they've taken surely. They're at home and Australian pride has gotta kick in at some point.
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@nepia said in Wallabies vs Springboks I:
@nta said in Wallabies vs Springboks I:
@nzzp said in Wallabies vs Springboks I:
@duluth said in Wallabies vs Springboks I:
I didn't know the run was that bad. That makes a Bok win even more likely - they are overdue
Apparently the Bokke have won 3 of the last 23 in Australia. I'm frankly astonished - not sure why they play so poorly, but good luck Australia. Hopefully a cracking game
The main reason was around their fitness and defence - yeah they'd nail us at set piece but run those Bok teams around a bit and they'd run out of puff. Also the Saffer-away-from-home factor seemed to play a part. They are usually OK in Perthfontein.
There was a lot of political pressure to transform in that mid-decade run as well.
Going by the team that won the RWC they should have transformed quicker.
Perhaps, but the systems weren't quite there. They were told to magic up a group of transformational players and it was a few years early.
@nta It's all about coaches. Rassie & Nienaber scout talent so much better then the others and made transformation top priority. The Springbokke results show improvement since Rassie took over.
Wallabies are the big favorites playing at home in front of their home crowds. Our lot haven't played in front of crowds since the 2019 WC.
Luckily we have Duane and Faf back. Cheslin probably out.
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@nzzp said in Wallabies vs Springboks I:
Sunday night, 10pm NZT.
Not happening ... would love to, but need to sleep for Monday. Sad face.
Bro, live a little, have a late one. It’s only Monday.
Looking forward to the test match. For whatever reason the Springboks don’t have a great travelling record to Oz and NZ no matter how good the Boks are going.
@act-crusader said in Wallabies vs Springboks I:
@nzzp said in Wallabies vs Springboks I:
Sunday night, 10pm NZT.
Not happening ... would love to, but need to sleep for Monday. Sad face.
Bro, live a little, have a late one. It’s only Monday.
Looking forward to the test match. For whatever reason the Springboks don’t have a great travelling record to Oz and NZ no matter how good the Boks are going.
yeah, definitely for the All Blacks, but not sure it's worth it for Aus SA. Will probably just watch a replay. Back in the early 2000's the Boks were paying $7 for a win in Australia. Seven bucks! I hopped on it, and they got smoked. Still seems deeply weird to me how they travel so poorly
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The intercepts from Oz are a product of players developing in a shit competition against shit opposition where they get away with it. This idea from some that they need to develop on their own in their own comp can be shot down just by those examples alone IMO.
It's like layers that look a million bucks in NPC then ten bucks at Super because their skills are based around picking out and running past lesser skilled players -
The intercepts from Oz are a product of players developing in a shit competition against shit opposition where they get away with it. This idea from some that they need to develop on their own in their own comp can be shot down just by those examples alone IMO.
It's like layers that look a million bucks in NPC then ten bucks at Super because their skills are based around picking out and running past lesser skilled players@crucial said in Wallabies vs Springboks I:
It's like layers that look a million bucks in NPC then ten bucks at Super because their skills are based around picking out and running past lesser skilled players
Absolutely, like schoolboy layers who were bigger, stronger and faster than everyone else suddenly coming up against defences that you can't do that to. You have to reset your game, and find new ways to win.
One of the reasons the Aussies dominated world cricket for so long was the intensity of competition underneath. Now that's not what it was, and I think you're seeing the results play out at the top level. I'm firmly of the opinion that the drop in quality of Super rugby was a strong contributor to our post-2015 malaise in the All Blacks
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@nzzp said in Wallabies vs Springboks I:
@crucial said in Wallabies vs Springboks I:
It's like layers that look a million bucks in NPC then ten bucks at Super because their skills are based around picking out and running past lesser skilled players
Absolutely, like schoolboy layers who were bigger, stronger and faster than everyone else suddenly coming up against defences that you can't do that to. You have to reset your game, and find new ways to win.
One of the reasons the Aussies dominated world cricket for so long was the intensity of competition underneath. Now that's not what it was, and I think you're seeing the results play out at the top level. I'm firmly of the opinion that the drop in quality of Super rugby was a strong contributor to our post-2015 malaise in the All Blacks
We also had a talent drain after 2015 that saw us lose a number of GOATs that eroded the core of the team, leaving holes we weren't able to readily and effectively fill
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@nzzp said in Wallabies vs Springboks I:
@crucial said in Wallabies vs Springboks I:
It's like layers that look a million bucks in NPC then ten bucks at Super because their skills are based around picking out and running past lesser skilled players
Absolutely, like schoolboy layers who were bigger, stronger and faster than everyone else suddenly coming up against defences that you can't do that to. You have to reset your game, and find new ways to win.
One of the reasons the Aussies dominated world cricket for so long was the intensity of competition underneath. Now that's not what it was, and I think you're seeing the results play out at the top level. I'm firmly of the opinion that the drop in quality of Super rugby was a strong contributor to our post-2015 malaise in the All Blacks
We also had a talent drain after 2015 that saw us lose a number of GOATs that eroded the core of the team, leaving holes we weren't able to readily and effectively fill
@canefan said in Wallabies vs Springboks I:
@nzzp said in Wallabies vs Springboks I:
@crucial said in Wallabies vs Springboks I:
It's like layers that look a million bucks in NPC then ten bucks at Super because their skills are based around picking out and running past lesser skilled players
Absolutely, like schoolboy layers who were bigger, stronger and faster than everyone else suddenly coming up against defences that you can't do that to. You have to reset your game, and find new ways to win.
One of the reasons the Aussies dominated world cricket for so long was the intensity of competition underneath. Now that's not what it was, and I think you're seeing the results play out at the top level. I'm firmly of the opinion that the drop in quality of Super rugby was a strong contributor to our post-2015 malaise in the All Blacks
We also had a talent drain after 2015 that saw us lose a number of GOATs that eroded the core of the team, leaving holes we weren't able to readily and effectively fill
absolutely. Generational shift. But, I think the fringe players over the last 4 years have been worse than the fringe players previously
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@canefan said in Wallabies vs Springboks I:
@nzzp said in Wallabies vs Springboks I:
@crucial said in Wallabies vs Springboks I:
It's like layers that look a million bucks in NPC then ten bucks at Super because their skills are based around picking out and running past lesser skilled players
Absolutely, like schoolboy layers who were bigger, stronger and faster than everyone else suddenly coming up against defences that you can't do that to. You have to reset your game, and find new ways to win.
One of the reasons the Aussies dominated world cricket for so long was the intensity of competition underneath. Now that's not what it was, and I think you're seeing the results play out at the top level. I'm firmly of the opinion that the drop in quality of Super rugby was a strong contributor to our post-2015 malaise in the All Blacks
We also had a talent drain after 2015 that saw us lose a number of GOATs that eroded the core of the team, leaving holes we weren't able to readily and effectively fill
absolutely. Generational shift. But, I think the fringe players over the last 4 years have been worse than the fringe players previously
@nzzp said in Wallabies vs Springboks I:
@canefan said in Wallabies vs Springboks I:
@nzzp said in Wallabies vs Springboks I:
@crucial said in Wallabies vs Springboks I:
It's like layers that look a million bucks in NPC then ten bucks at Super because their skills are based around picking out and running past lesser skilled players
Absolutely, like schoolboy layers who were bigger, stronger and faster than everyone else suddenly coming up against defences that you can't do that to. You have to reset your game, and find new ways to win.
One of the reasons the Aussies dominated world cricket for so long was the intensity of competition underneath. Now that's not what it was, and I think you're seeing the results play out at the top level. I'm firmly of the opinion that the drop in quality of Super rugby was a strong contributor to our post-2015 malaise in the All Blacks
We also had a talent drain after 2015 that saw us lose a number of GOATs that eroded the core of the team, leaving holes we weren't able to readily and effectively fill
absolutely. Generational shift. But, I think the fringe players over the last 4 years have been worse than the fringe players previously
It's going to be interesting to see how this current batch turn out. We have a few players who could be really good
