6N England v Ireland
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@bones said in 6N England v Ireland:
@nzzp I'm not talking about obscure hits, if I can see them real time then surely one of four officials can too. Raynal set the bar and failed to follow through. Maybe refs need to be held to the same scrutiny they set out.
Jonker was definitely selective in bringing these incidents to Raynal's attention.
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@bovidae said in 6N England v Ireland:
@bones said in 6N England v Ireland:
@nzzp I'm not talking about obscure hits, if I can see them real time then surely one of four officials can too. Raynal set the bar and failed to follow through. Maybe refs need to be held to the same scrutiny they set out.
Jonker was definitely selective in bringing these incidents to Raynal's attention.
that, and host broadcasters being suuuuper choosy about which ones to replay over and over and over make a difference. And it shouldn't, it damages the game and ultimately both teams.
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@nzzp said in 6N England v Ireland:
@bones said in 6N England v Ireland:
@nzzp I'm not talking about obscure hits, if I can see them real time then surely one of four officials can too. Raynal set the bar and failed to follow through. Maybe refs need to be held to the same scrutiny they set out.
I agree, pickign up all the dodge would reduce it significantly.
But remember - obvious on TV, and obvious on the field with bodies around and multiple things to look at is way, way harder.
What's that T part in TMO again?
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@nzzp said in 6N England v Ireland:
@bovidae said in 6N England v Ireland:
@bones said in 6N England v Ireland:
@nzzp I'm not talking about obscure hits, if I can see them real time then surely one of four officials can too. Raynal set the bar and failed to follow through. Maybe refs need to be held to the same scrutiny they set out.
Jonker was definitely selective in bringing these incidents to Raynal's attention.
that, and host broadcasters being suuuuper choosy about which ones to replay over and over and over make a difference. And it shouldn't, it damages the game and ultimately both teams.
It was an England home game...
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@billy-tell said in 6N England v Ireland:
Can’t take a video seriously with that soundtrack.
Haven't watched it with the audio, but if it's Miles Harrison, yeah, it'd be hard to take seriously
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@pakman said in 6N England v Ireland:
@mikethesnow said in 6N England v Ireland:
It's high time that coaches and captains in their post-match interviews stopped blaming the officials and started acknowledging that one of their player's indiscretions - regardless of intent - gave the match officials, including the TMO, no other option but to send the player from the field.
James Ryan is 2.03m tall
Ewels had a legal target area of approx. 1.6m
This is a coaching issue.
What's forgotten in incidents like this is James Ryan's match was over after 82 secs.
Quite possibly he'll be out next weekend too.
Plenty of these types of vids floating around YouTube this morning
Sexton, who has form for being a cheap bastard, gets away scot-free based on this footage. Would like to have seen a close-up.
Could easily have been two reds in the same passage of play.
The thing about the red is was Ewels actually trying to effect a tackle?
Ryan had already passed and was continuing his run as a blocker.
For me it looked as though Ewels was trying to absorb the momentum of Ryan running into him, rather than trying to take Ryan down.
Flip side Ryan running into Ewels to take him out of defensive line.
I'd say clumsy on both parts.
Interesting thought but as clumsy as Ryan may have been, Ewels went into contact high. Under the current protocols that’s a red.
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@pakman said in 6N England v Ireland:
I'd say clumsy on both parts.
The thing for me which needs to be fixed is the penalty for clumsy play is the same as for malicious, dirty stuff.
Punish careless, clumsy play for safety's sake by all means, but there has to be a different in-match penalty from the dirty, malicious stuff like kicking a blokes head.
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@victor-meldrew said in 6N England v Ireland:
@pakman said in 6N England v Ireland:
I'd say clumsy on both parts.
The thing for me which needs to be fixed is the penalty for clumsy play is the same as for malicious, dirty stuff.
Punish careless, clumsy play for safety's sake by all means, but there has to be a different in-match penalty from the dirty, malicious stuff like kicking a blokes head.
The theory is to get better technique coached into players. To an extent that has worked but you could also have a strong argument that it hasn't.
Take someone like Ofa (please). Was a shocker at not lowering or driving up if he did. I don't see a lot of improvement tbh. He's still at risk of being 'clumsy'But yes, accidents and the like being punished the same as grub acts doesn't have the correct balance. You can stop yourself throwing a roundhouse easier than getting out the way of an unintended head clash.
But that is why the 20minute RC was suggested. It was England (and other NH teams) that shot that down.As we know from history though, when England get shafted due to Laws the Laws (or interpretations) change quickly.
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@crucial said in 6N England v Ireland:
@victor-meldrew said in 6N England v Ireland:
@pakman said in 6N England v Ireland:
I'd say clumsy on both parts.
The thing for me which needs to be fixed is the penalty for clumsy play is the same as for malicious, dirty stuff.
Punish careless, clumsy play for safety's sake by all means, but there has to be a different in-match penalty from the dirty, malicious stuff like kicking a blokes head.
The theory is to get better technique coached into players. To an extent that has worked but you could also have a strong argument that it hasn't.
Take someone like Ofa (please). Was a shocker at not lowering or driving up if he did. I don't see a lot of improvement tbh. He's still at risk of being 'clumsy'But yes, accidents and the like being punished the same as grub acts doesn't have the correct balance. You can stop yourself throwing a roundhouse easier than getting out the way of an unintended head clash.
But that is why the 20minute RC was suggested. It was England (and other NH teams) that shot that down.As we know from history though, when England get shafted due to Laws the Laws (or interpretations) change quickly.
Really?
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@victor-meldrew said in 6N England v Ireland:
@pakman said in 6N England v Ireland:
I'd say clumsy on both parts.
The thing for me which needs to be fixed is the penalty for clumsy play is the same as for malicious, dirty stuff.
Punish careless, clumsy play for safety's sake by all means, but there has to be a different in-match penalty from the dirty, malicious stuff like kicking a blokes head.
But if a transgression whether deliberate or clumsy results in the innocent player leaving the field due to injury then that should be straight red.
That’ll take care of the targeting
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@catogrande said in 6N England v Ireland:
@crucial said in 6N England v Ireland:
@victor-meldrew said in 6N England v Ireland:
@pakman said in 6N England v Ireland:
I'd say clumsy on both parts.
The thing for me which needs to be fixed is the penalty for clumsy play is the same as for malicious, dirty stuff.
Punish careless, clumsy play for safety's sake by all means, but there has to be a different in-match penalty from the dirty, malicious stuff like kicking a blokes head.
The theory is to get better technique coached into players. To an extent that has worked but you could also have a strong argument that it hasn't.
Take someone like Ofa (please). Was a shocker at not lowering or driving up if he did. I don't see a lot of improvement tbh. He's still at risk of being 'clumsy'But yes, accidents and the like being punished the same as grub acts doesn't have the correct balance. You can stop yourself throwing a roundhouse easier than getting out the way of an unintended head clash.
But that is why the 20minute RC was suggested. It was England (and other NH teams) that shot that down.As we know from history though, when England get shafted due to Laws the Laws (or interpretations) change quickly.
Really?
Yup
England were foxed and frustrated by Italy's creative use of a legal loophole | Andy Bull
Italy’s plan of avoiding rucks by not committing to the breakdown after tackles frustrated England and annoyed their coach Eddie Jones
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That’s really only an article telling us that England were rubbish at working out how to counter a tactic and that Jones didn’t like it. You’ll need a bit more than that to shore up the conspiracy theory
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@catogrande said in 6N England v Ireland:
That’s really only an article telling us that England were rubbish at working out how to counter a tactic and that Jones didn’t like it. You’ll need a bit more than that to shore up the conspiracy theory
The rule that allowed it, that the ABs had used for years to be able to get closer to the attack, was changed within months.
Ruck-less law change was an 'over-reaction' says Italy coach Conor O'Shea
Conor O’Shea has criticised World Rugby for an “over-reaction” to his team’s infamous ruck-less tactics against England a year ago, […]
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@mikethesnow but a legal tackle can end up injuring someone, or an illegal tackle/contact doesnt injure someone and then next week almost identically it does, that creates a massive grey area.
For me, dirty play, like kicking, punching etc is always a RC.
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@catogrande said in 6N England v Ireland:
@pakman said in 6N England v Ireland:
@mikethesnow said in 6N England v Ireland:
It's high time that coaches and captains in their post-match interviews stopped blaming the officials and started acknowledging that one of their player's indiscretions - regardless of intent - gave the match officials, including the TMO, no other option but to send the player from the field.
James Ryan is 2.03m tall
Ewels had a legal target area of approx. 1.6m
This is a coaching issue.
What's forgotten in incidents like this is James Ryan's match was over after 82 secs.
Quite possibly he'll be out next weekend too.
Plenty of these types of vids floating around YouTube this morning
Sexton, who has form for being a cheap bastard, gets away scot-free based on this footage. Would like to have seen a close-up.
Could easily have been two reds in the same passage of play.
The thing about the red is was Ewels actually trying to effect a tackle?
Ryan had already passed and was continuing his run as a blocker.
For me it looked as though Ewels was trying to absorb the momentum of Ryan running into him, rather than trying to take Ryan down.
Flip side Ryan running into Ewels to take him out of defensive line.
I'd say clumsy on both parts.
Interesting thought but as clumsy as Ryan may have been, Ewels went into contact high. Under the current protocols that’s a red.
Watching some more, Ewels is looking at Sexton when contact is made. That is because Ryan had passed to him more than a yard before the contact.
So IMO Ewels wasn't trying to tackle Ryan and was aware that he wasn't in possession.
Which begs the question of what IS the 'correct' technique for dealing with someone not in possession running into you? Tackling a player not in possession round the hips is a penalty, isn't it?
I think if it were me I'd be bracing myself not to get knocked over, and then trying to get to the player in possession.
The more I look at this , the more I'm unconvinced it was even a penalty.
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@mikethesnow said in 6N England v Ireland:
But if a transgression whether deliberate or clumsy results in the innocent player leaving the field due to injury then that should be straight red.
Take your point, but I think there needs to be a distinction between clumsiness and thuggery.
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@catogrande said in 6N England v Ireland:
That’s really only an article telling us that England were rubbish at working out how to counter a tactic and that Jones didn’t like it. You’ll need a bit more than that to shore up the conspiracy theory
Google the 2-3-2 scrum and an English bloke called Baxter.
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@pakman said in 6N England v Ireland:
I think if it were me I'd be bracing myself not to get knocked over, and then trying to get to the player in possession.
have been plenty of other examples where you could argue the player is bracing themselves for contact over the past few years but more often still results in a card...
