Waratahs v Crusaders
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Terrible display. The forward pack is a mixture of journeymen and once-great players past their peak. Best forward was newell, that guy has a big future. Best back imho was Jordan. Thought goodhue did ok but Havili was poor. I think he’s a busted flush as a midfielder. This is the weakest crusaders side in along while. No way they win the comp.
@Billy-Tell I wouldn't write them off yet. Hope they don't win though.
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Thought Matera Reece and the props did well for Crusaders to bring them back into a game they were well beaten in elsewhere in first half. Evan seemed to miss Bridge and Ennor tonite. The Tahs wingers loosies and halves were great. Really like Gordon Edmed and Foketi.
Reece stood out in the Crusaders backline tonight. To be fair, hard to judge if he had an average game or the rest were just dross. Goodhue started to come into the game later on and did some good stuff. Considering he's been out for a year,I think he did OK.
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Reece stood out in the Crusaders backline tonight. To be fair, hard to judge if he had an average game or the rest were just dross. Goodhue started to come into the game later on and did some good stuff. Considering he's been out for a year,I think he did OK.
@Victor-Meldrew yeah Reece always goes looking for work.
Up until about 70 mins I think Goodhue had touched the ball maybe 3 times and one was a pass behind him from Jordan he shelled.
Several in that line up you can usually rely on were poor, like Bryn Hall who missed a fairly straight forward tackle for the opening try, his pack gave him shit ball and then his passing was slow putting additional pressure on those outside him.
That loose trio last night IMO was a huge part of thier problem though, too slow, ineffective in clearing or securing Crusders ball.
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@Victor-Meldrew yeah Reece always goes looking for work.
Up until about 70 mins I think Goodhue had touched the ball maybe 3 times and one was a pass behind him from Jordan he shelled.
Several in that line up you can usually rely on were poor, like Bryn Hall who missed a fairly straight forward tackle for the opening try, his pack gave him shit ball and then his passing was slow putting additional pressure on those outside him.
That loose trio last night IMO was a huge part of thier problem though, too slow, ineffective in clearing or securing Crusders ball.
@taniwharugby said in Waratahs v Crusaders:
Up until about 70 mins I think Goodhue had touched the ball maybe 3 times and one was a pass behind him from Jordan he shelled.
Yep. But in the last quarter, he started to look less like a player who'd been out for a year and way more comfortable and assertive. Good to see and hope he can kick on.
That loose trio last night IMO was a huge part of thier problem though, too slow, ineffective in clearing or securing Crusders ball.
I honestly can't remember the loosies doing anything which stood out. - Matera possibly. Stark contrast to the Lander game - Tu'u in particular.
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@taniwharugby said in Waratahs v Crusaders:
Up until about 70 mins I think Goodhue had touched the ball maybe 3 times and one was a pass behind him from Jordan he shelled.
Yep. But in the last quarter, he started to look less like a player who'd been out for a year and way more comfortable and assertive. Good to see and hope he can kick on.
That loose trio last night IMO was a huge part of thier problem though, too slow, ineffective in clearing or securing Crusders ball.
I honestly can't remember the loosies doing anything which stood out. - Matera possibly. Stark contrast to the Lander game - Tu'u in particular.
@Victor-Meldrew somewhat disappointing Cullen did not Grace us with his presence
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@taniwharugby said in Waratahs v Crusaders:
Up until about 70 mins I think Goodhue had touched the ball maybe 3 times and one was a pass behind him from Jordan he shelled.
Yep. But in the last quarter, he started to look less like a player who'd been out for a year and way more comfortable and assertive. Good to see and hope he can kick on.
That loose trio last night IMO was a huge part of thier problem though, too slow, ineffective in clearing or securing Crusders ball.
I honestly can't remember the loosies doing anything which stood out. - Matera possibly. Stark contrast to the Lander game - Tu'u in particular.
@Victor-Meldrew guess my point was if a player of his calibre is pretty much non-existant for 3/4 of a game then there are other issues...IIRC several Crusaders plays had passes skip him, whereas they needed his more direct straighter running.
Big Leicester has been found wanting the past few weeks too, teams have shut him down rendering him largely ineffective.
Think Havili tries to do too much, and given he hasnt been in great form, is a big problem too
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The prop throwing the ball behind to a runner seems a go to play for NZ teams but has been pretty ineffective. We seem to go backwards as we slowly shift it out the backline. Seems the best yards are quick ball close to the rucks with players running hard and straight. Or forwards pick and go, gainline metres se hard to get with fast D so they need to figure out a way to go forward.
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The prop throwing the ball behind to a runner seems a go to play for NZ teams but has been pretty ineffective. We seem to go backwards as we slowly shift it out the backline. Seems the best yards are quick ball close to the rucks with players running hard and straight. Or forwards pick and go, gainline metres se hard to get with fast D so they need to figure out a way to go forward.
@chimoaus yeah there were several plays the Crusaders passed 2 or 3 times and were 10m+ behind the gain line, and with the rushing d of the tahs, they were getting caught behind so often, whihc adds to the pressure, they needed to do some pick and and goes to fracture the defence, one wide, 2 wide and so on, sometimes it looks like they are reverting back to the play when they had Nadolo on the wing, try and spread it to him and go from there, but with Leicester.
I hate the saying 'earn the right to go wide' but many of the NZ teams need to take a step back and look at thier decision making and how they will often fling it wide for the sake of it.
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@chimoaus yeah there were several plays the Crusaders passed 2 or 3 times and were 10m+ behind the gain line, and with the rushing d of the tahs, they were getting caught behind so often, whihc adds to the pressure, they needed to do some pick and and goes to fracture the defence, one wide, 2 wide and so on, sometimes it looks like they are reverting back to the play when they had Nadolo on the wing, try and spread it to him and go from there, but with Leicester.
I hate the saying 'earn the right to go wide' but many of the NZ teams need to take a step back and look at thier decision making and how they will often fling it wide for the sake of it.
@taniwharugby agree about the Saders not handling the rush defence. The other NZ teams seem to have made some progress this year in that department but I think the Saders are still struggling with it.
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Terrible display. The forward pack is a mixture of journeymen and once-great players past their peak. Best forward was newell, that guy has a big future. Best back imho was Jordan. Thought goodhue did ok but Havili was poor. I think he’s a busted flush as a midfielder. This is the weakest crusaders side in along while. No way they win the comp.
@Billy-Tell said in Waratahs v Crusaders:
Terrible display. The forward pack is a mixture of journeymen and once-great players past their peak. Best forward was newell, that guy has a big future. Best back imho was Jordan. Thought goodhue did ok but Havili was poor. I think he’s a busted flush as a midfielder. This is the weakest crusaders side in along while. No way they win the comp.
I highlighted this at the end of last year in the 2022 squad naming's thread and was promptly labelled a nut-case.
Hilarious that you all have suddenly changed the narrative, in the SR squads thread it was deluded misinformed surface level comments along the lines of: 'Crusaders have all the best talent, look how stacked they are!' while I calmly pointed out that the Blues & Chiefs squads were at least on par & if you studied them closely actually significantly better in multiple areas.
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The prop throwing the ball behind to a runner seems a go to play for NZ teams but has been pretty ineffective. We seem to go backwards as we slowly shift it out the backline. Seems the best yards are quick ball close to the rucks with players running hard and straight. Or forwards pick and go, gainline metres se hard to get with fast D so they need to figure out a way to go forward.
@chimoaus said in Waratahs v Crusaders:
The prop throwing the ball behind to a runner seems a go to play for NZ teams but has been pretty ineffective. We seem to go backwards as we slowly shift it out the backline.
This was a tactic started about 2 years ago across many teams, with ball runners dishing the ball behind to a sweeper - usually a half - The idea was to compress defenders in and then wide ball to the outside backs who could straighten into space.
Clearly the Tahs' defensive pattern was tuned to that last night. Couldn't have dealt with it last year.
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just watched the second half.
Dalzell could see two red cards in the same game if the judicary have their act together. His first hit was a shocker, and no mitigation - exactly the sort of tackle World Rugby are trying to get out of the game.
So many of these reds are players coming in trying to hit hard as the second or third tackler. It just can't be worth it.
Charlie Gamble gets the Billy T mustache award. Also some massive turnovers, particularly at the end of the game.
The clock operator needs to be beaten - it seemed very hometown to me, and that is just not right. Rugby should be better than that.
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The prop throwing the ball behind to a runner seems a go to play for NZ teams but has been pretty ineffective. We seem to go backwards as we slowly shift it out the backline. Seems the best yards are quick ball close to the rucks with players running hard and straight. Or forwards pick and go, gainline metres se hard to get with fast D so they need to figure out a way to go forward.
@chimoaus said in Waratahs v Crusaders:
The prop throwing the ball behind to a runner seems a go to play for NZ teams but has been pretty ineffective. We seem to go backwards as we slowly shift it out the backline. Seems the best yards are quick ball close to the rucks with players running hard and straight. Or forwards pick and go, gainline metres se hard to get with fast D so they need to figure out a way to go forward.
Otherwise known as Ireland's attack. Teams are better at defending it now because it's obvious who will receive it and you leave the attacking winger undefended, backing your ability to scramble.
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@Victor-Meldrew guess my point was if a player of his calibre is pretty much non-existant for 3/4 of a game then there are other issues...IIRC several Crusaders plays had passes skip him, whereas they needed his more direct straighter running.
Big Leicester has been found wanting the past few weeks too, teams have shut him down rendering him largely ineffective.
Think Havili tries to do too much, and given he hasnt been in great form, is a big problem too
@taniwharugby said in Waratahs v Crusaders:
Think Havili tries to do too much, and given he hasnt been in great form, is a big problem too
That could be used to describe much of the ABs play last year. I rate Havili but he seems to have lost a bit of confidence
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@Billy-Tell said in Waratahs v Crusaders:
Terrible display. The forward pack is a mixture of journeymen and once-great players past their peak. Best forward was newell, that guy has a big future. Best back imho was Jordan. Thought goodhue did ok but Havili was poor. I think he’s a busted flush as a midfielder. This is the weakest crusaders side in along while. No way they win the comp.
I highlighted this at the end of last year in the 2022 squad naming's thread and was promptly labelled a nut-case.
Hilarious that you all have suddenly changed the narrative, in the SR squads thread it was deluded misinformed surface level comments along the lines of: 'Crusaders have all the best talent, look how stacked they are!' while I calmly pointed out that the Blues & Chiefs squads were at least on par & if you studied them closely actually significantly better in multiple areas.
@kiwi_expat said in Waratahs v Crusaders:
@Billy-Tell said in Waratahs v Crusaders:
Terrible display. The forward pack is a mixture of journeymen and once-great players past their peak. Best forward was newell, that guy has a big future. Best back imho was Jordan. Thought goodhue did ok but Havili was poor. I think he’s a busted flush as a midfielder. This is the weakest crusaders side in along while. No way they win the comp.
I highlighted this at the end of last year in the 2022 squad naming's thread and was promptly labelled a nut-case.
Hilarious that you all have suddenly changed the narrative, in the SR squads thread it was deluded misinformed surface level comments along the lines of: 'Crusaders have all the best talent, look how stacked they are!' while I calmly pointed out that the Blues & Chiefs squads were at least on par & if you studied them closely actually significantly better in multiple areas.
Your modesty is becoming.
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@kiwi_expat said in Waratahs v Crusaders:
@Billy-Tell said in Waratahs v Crusaders:
Terrible display. The forward pack is a mixture of journeymen and once-great players past their peak. Best forward was newell, that guy has a big future. Best back imho was Jordan. Thought goodhue did ok but Havili was poor. I think he’s a busted flush as a midfielder. This is the weakest crusaders side in along while. No way they win the comp.
I highlighted this at the end of last year in the 2022 squad naming's thread and was promptly labelled a nut-case.
Hilarious that you all have suddenly changed the narrative, in the SR squads thread it was deluded misinformed surface level comments along the lines of: 'Crusaders have all the best talent, look how stacked they are!' while I calmly pointed out that the Blues & Chiefs squads were at least on par & if you studied them closely actually significantly better in multiple areas.
Your modesty is becoming.
@Billy-Tell said in Waratahs v Crusaders:
@kiwi_expat said in Waratahs v Crusaders:
@Billy-Tell said in Waratahs v Crusaders:
Terrible display. The forward pack is a mixture of journeymen and once-great players past their peak. Best forward was newell, that guy has a big future. Best back imho was Jordan. Thought goodhue did ok but Havili was poor. I think he’s a busted flush as a midfielder. This is the weakest crusaders side in along while. No way they win the comp.
I highlighted this at the end of last year in the 2022 squad naming's thread and was promptly labelled a nut-case.
Hilarious that you all have suddenly changed the narrative, in the SR squads thread it was deluded misinformed surface level comments along the lines of: 'Crusaders have all the best talent, look how stacked they are!' while I calmly pointed out that the Blues & Chiefs squads were at least on par & if you studied them closely actually significantly better in multiple areas.
Your modesty is becoming.
nah fair play. I remember it, someone claiming Crusaders were underdogs. I thought they would be fragile this year - and their squads haven't been getting stronger. Simon Hickey is the canary in the mine; not a typical NZ 10, good with the boot, but small and nothing like Mo'unga in the open
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Terrible display. The forward pack is a mixture of journeymen and once-great players past their peak. Best forward was newell, that guy has a big future. Best back imho was Jordan. Thought goodhue did ok but Havili was poor. I think he’s a busted flush as a midfielder. This is the weakest crusaders side in along while. No way they win the comp.
@Billy-Tell said in Waratahs v Crusaders:
Terrible display. The forward pack is a mixture of journeymen and once-great players past their peak. Best forward was newell, that guy has a big future. Best back imho was Jordan. Thought goodhue did ok but Havili was poor. I think he’s a busted flush as a midfielder. This is the weakest crusaders side in along while. No way they win the comp.
I thought that was Jordan’s worst game for some time. I thought Reece was our best back. On the ball in defence and then getting involved.
I know we tend to go full blast when there is a loss, in my view we were beaten when the ball hit the deck and when we tried to get back in the game we upped our workrate and breakdown work, but lacked some class to finish off. The way the game opened up in the final 20 was made for Mo’unga.
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@Billy-Tell said in Waratahs v Crusaders:
@kiwi_expat said in Waratahs v Crusaders:
@Billy-Tell said in Waratahs v Crusaders:
Terrible display. The forward pack is a mixture of journeymen and once-great players past their peak. Best forward was newell, that guy has a big future. Best back imho was Jordan. Thought goodhue did ok but Havili was poor. I think he’s a busted flush as a midfielder. This is the weakest crusaders side in along while. No way they win the comp.
I highlighted this at the end of last year in the 2022 squad naming's thread and was promptly labelled a nut-case.
Hilarious that you all have suddenly changed the narrative, in the SR squads thread it was deluded misinformed surface level comments along the lines of: 'Crusaders have all the best talent, look how stacked they are!' while I calmly pointed out that the Blues & Chiefs squads were at least on par & if you studied them closely actually significantly better in multiple areas.
Your modesty is becoming.
nah fair play. I remember it, someone claiming Crusaders were underdogs. I thought they would be fragile this year - and their squads haven't been getting stronger. Simon Hickey is the canary in the mine; not a typical NZ 10, good with the boot, but small and nothing like Mo'unga in the open
@nzzp said in Waratahs v Crusaders:
@Billy-Tell said in Waratahs v Crusaders:
@kiwi_expat said in Waratahs v Crusaders:
@Billy-Tell said in Waratahs v Crusaders:
Terrible display. The forward pack is a mixture of journeymen and once-great players past their peak. Best forward was newell, that guy has a big future. Best back imho was Jordan. Thought goodhue did ok but Havili was poor. I think he’s a busted flush as a midfielder. This is the weakest crusaders side in along while. No way they win the comp.
I highlighted this at the end of last year in the 2022 squad naming's thread and was promptly labelled a nut-case.
Hilarious that you all have suddenly changed the narrative, in the SR squads thread it was deluded misinformed surface level comments along the lines of: 'Crusaders have all the best talent, look how stacked they are!' while I calmly pointed out that the Blues & Chiefs squads were at least on par & if you studied them closely actually significantly better in multiple areas.
Your modesty is becoming.
nah fair play. I remember it, someone claiming Crusaders were underdogs. I thought they would be fragile this year - and their squads haven't been getting stronger.
There seems to be this aura around the Crusaders where people just assume they have the best players by default, meanwhile a current All Black's 15 selected by the fern would only include 2 Crusaders, 3 at max.
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@nzzp said in Waratahs v Crusaders:
@Billy-Tell said in Waratahs v Crusaders:
@kiwi_expat said in Waratahs v Crusaders:
@Billy-Tell said in Waratahs v Crusaders:
Terrible display. The forward pack is a mixture of journeymen and once-great players past their peak. Best forward was newell, that guy has a big future. Best back imho was Jordan. Thought goodhue did ok but Havili was poor. I think he’s a busted flush as a midfielder. This is the weakest crusaders side in along while. No way they win the comp.
I highlighted this at the end of last year in the 2022 squad naming's thread and was promptly labelled a nut-case.
Hilarious that you all have suddenly changed the narrative, in the SR squads thread it was deluded misinformed surface level comments along the lines of: 'Crusaders have all the best talent, look how stacked they are!' while I calmly pointed out that the Blues & Chiefs squads were at least on par & if you studied them closely actually significantly better in multiple areas.
Your modesty is becoming.
nah fair play. I remember it, someone claiming Crusaders were underdogs. I thought they would be fragile this year - and their squads haven't been getting stronger.
There seems to be this aura around the Crusaders where people just assume they have the best players by default, meanwhile a current All Black's 15 selected by the fern would only include 2 Crusaders, 3 at max.
@kiwi_expat said in Waratahs v Crusaders:
@nzzp said in Waratahs v Crusaders:
@Billy-Tell said in Waratahs v Crusaders:
@kiwi_expat said in Waratahs v Crusaders:
@Billy-Tell said in Waratahs v Crusaders:
Terrible display. The forward pack is a mixture of journeymen and once-great players past their peak. Best forward was newell, that guy has a big future. Best back imho was Jordan. Thought goodhue did ok but Havili was poor. I think he’s a busted flush as a midfielder. This is the weakest crusaders side in along while. No way they win the comp.
I highlighted this at the end of last year in the 2022 squad naming's thread and was promptly labelled a nut-case.
Hilarious that you all have suddenly changed the narrative, in the SR squads thread it was deluded misinformed surface level comments along the lines of: 'Crusaders have all the best talent, look how stacked they are!' while I calmly pointed out that the Blues & Chiefs squads were at least on par & if you studied them closely actually significantly better in multiple areas.
Your modesty is becoming.
nah fair play. I remember it, someone claiming Crusaders were underdogs. I thought they would be fragile this year - and their squads haven't been getting stronger.
There seems to be this aura around the Crusaders where people just assume they have the best players by default, meanwhile a current All Black's 15 selected by the fern would only include 2 Crusaders, 3 at max.
5 titles on the bounce will do that for ya.
And what we think and what Fozzie thinks ain't the same. Rugby pundits can buy into the hype as well - it's not healthy
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@Billy-Tell said in Waratahs v Crusaders:
Terrible display. The forward pack is a mixture of journeymen and once-great players past their peak. Best forward was newell, that guy has a big future. Best back imho was Jordan. Thought goodhue did ok but Havili was poor. I think he’s a busted flush as a midfielder. This is the weakest crusaders side in along while. No way they win the comp.
I highlighted this at the end of last year in the 2022 squad naming's thread and was promptly labelled a nut-case.
Hilarious that you all have suddenly changed the narrative, in the SR squads thread it was deluded misinformed surface level comments along the lines of: 'Crusaders have all the best talent, look how stacked they are!' while I calmly pointed out that the Blues & Chiefs squads were at least on par & if you studied them closely actually significantly better in multiple areas.
@kiwi_expat said in Waratahs v Crusaders:
@Billy-Tell said in Waratahs v Crusaders:
Terrible display. The forward pack is a mixture of journeymen and once-great players past their peak. Best forward was newell, that guy has a big future. Best back imho was Jordan. Thought goodhue did ok but Havili was poor. I think he’s a busted flush as a midfielder. This is the weakest crusaders side in along while. No way they win the comp.
I highlighted this at the end of last year in the 2022 squad naming's thread and was promptly labelled a nut-case.
Hilarious that you all have suddenly changed the narrative, in the SR squads thread it was deluded misinformed surface level comments along the lines of: 'Crusaders have all the best talent, look how stacked they are!' while I calmly pointed out that the Blues & Chiefs squads were at least on par & if you studied them closely actually significantly better in multiple areas.
My recollection was more that the Saders had a potential 13 AB starting XV with another on the bench.
Point was correct that the next layer of Saders didn’t look so flash and the next level of players in the country were sitting in other teams.
Depth has been the key to NZ teams this year. Previously the Saders had some but maybe the cycle has finally changed a little. This happens usually when positions 1 and 2 are filled and up and comers opt to be number 2 elsewhere rather than 3 with a blocker.
Remarkably the Saders management have dealt with that for a long time but it can’t sustain forever.
