WRWC Final - NZ Vs England
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@Machpants said in WRWC Final - NZ Vs England:
Lol, so who said England wouldn't be pushing for the twenty minute card now?
I wonder if he discussed it with Portia after the match? Not that she would have remembered even if he had....
@canefan said in WRWC Final - NZ Vs England:
I wonder if he discussed it with Portia after the match? Not that she would have remembered even if he had....
he did but Portia then rambled on about the quality of mercy, the gentle rain from heaven, and being mightest of the mightiest. There was a monarch and a sceptre in there somewhere as well. The bit about the dread and fear of kings was of course regendered. "We 've got some scary sheilas over there, eh?"
"The quality of mercy is not strained.
It droppeth as the gentle rain from heaven
Upon the place beneath. It is twice blest:
It blesseth him that gives and him that takes.
'Tis mightiest in the mightiest; it becomes
The thronèd monarch better than his crown.
His scepter shows the force of temporal power,
The attribute to awe and majesty
Wherein doth sit the dread and fear of kings;
But mercy is above this sceptered sway." -
Lol, so who said England wouldn't be pushing for the twenty minute card now?
@Machpants said in WRWC Final - NZ Vs England:
Lol, so who said England wouldn't be pushing for the twenty minute card now?
20 minute red card is obviously the way forward. Of course there are too many teams that would rather roll the dice with the red card lottery because it favours the underdog to do so. Hell Wales won a 6N championship on the back of favourable red card calls. No way would I want the red card laws changed if I was them.
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@Machpants said in WRWC Final - NZ Vs England:
Lol, so who said England wouldn't be pushing for the twenty minute card now?
20 minute red card is obviously the way forward. Of course there are too many teams that would rather roll the dice with the red card lottery because it favours the underdog to do so. Hell Wales won a 6N championship on the back of favourable red card calls. No way would I want the red card laws changed if I was them.
@Frye said in WRWC Final - NZ Vs England:
@Machpants said in WRWC Final - NZ Vs England:
Lol, so who said England wouldn't be pushing for the twenty minute card now?
20 minute red card is obviously the way forward. Of course there are too many teams that would rather roll the dice with the red card lottery because it favours the underdog to do so. Hell Wales won a 6N championship on the back of favourable red card calls. No way would I want the red card laws changed if I was them.
OK I'll play
Many in the SH believe a red card is almost spiteful
It's there to punish stupidity, thuggery, and professional cheating (cumulative YC)
Whilst the refereeing is inconsistent, the intent is not.
I don't believe any referee is looking to send someone off.
But they have a duty of care to protect the players on the pitch.
In the case being discussed above, if there had been a 20 minute RC then England would certainly have benefited from the incident as arguably NZ's best player was unable to play for the rest of the match.
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@Frye said in WRWC Final - NZ Vs England:
@Machpants said in WRWC Final - NZ Vs England:
Lol, so who said England wouldn't be pushing for the twenty minute card now?
20 minute red card is obviously the way forward. Of course there are too many teams that would rather roll the dice with the red card lottery because it favours the underdog to do so. Hell Wales won a 6N championship on the back of favourable red card calls. No way would I want the red card laws changed if I was them.
OK I'll play
Many in the SH believe a red card is almost spiteful
It's there to punish stupidity, thuggery, and professional cheating (cumulative YC)
Whilst the refereeing is inconsistent, the intent is not.
I don't believe any referee is looking to send someone off.
But they have a duty of care to protect the players on the pitch.
In the case being discussed above, if there had been a 20 minute RC then England would certainly have benefited from the incident as arguably NZ's best player was unable to play for the rest of the match.
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@MiketheSnow nil point! England reserve came on and gave away 2 intercept tries, while also dropping the ball over the line - thrice.
In the imaginary game I watched anyway.
@Bones said in WRWC Final - NZ Vs England:
@MiketheSnow nil point! England reserve came on and gave away 2 intercept tries, while also dropping the ball over the line - thrice.
In the imaginary game I watched anyway.
That’s novel having a reserve for a red card
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@Frye said in WRWC Final - NZ Vs England:
@Machpants said in WRWC Final - NZ Vs England:
Lol, so who said England wouldn't be pushing for the twenty minute card now?
20 minute red card is obviously the way forward. Of course there are too many teams that would rather roll the dice with the red card lottery because it favours the underdog to do so. Hell Wales won a 6N championship on the back of favourable red card calls. No way would I want the red card laws changed if I was them.
OK I'll play
Many in the SH believe a red card is almost spiteful
It's there to punish stupidity, thuggery, and professional cheating (cumulative YC)
Whilst the refereeing is inconsistent, the intent is not.
I don't believe any referee is looking to send someone off.
But they have a duty of care to protect the players on the pitch.
In the case being discussed above, if there had been a 20 minute RC then England would certainly have benefited from the incident as arguably NZ's best player was unable to play for the rest of the match.
@MiketheSnow said in WRWC Final - NZ Vs England:
@Frye said in WRWC Final - NZ Vs England:
@Machpants said in WRWC Final - NZ Vs England:
Lol, so who said England wouldn't be pushing for the twenty minute card now?
20 minute red card is obviously the way forward. Of course there are too many teams that would rather roll the dice with the red card lottery because it favours the underdog to do so. Hell Wales won a 6N championship on the back of favourable red card calls. No way would I want the red card laws changed if I was them.
OK I'll play
Many in the SH believe a red card is almost spiteful
It's there to punish stupidity, thuggery, and professional cheating (cumulative YC)
Whilst the refereeing is inconsistent, the intent is not.
I don't believe any referee is looking to send someone off.
But they have a duty of care to protect the players on the pitch.
In the case being discussed above, if there had been a 20 minute RC then England would certainly have benefited from the incident as arguably NZ's best player was unable to play for the rest of the match.
Hence the logic behind my suggestion that 'punishment' needs to be linked with the outcome of the act. Not sure of exactly how you'd do it .
What I don't get is how for all this talk about 'protecting the players' we saw two England players return to play after head knocks during the game. One flopped out and didn't move during play and another was very unsteady on her feet. We also see head knocks not attended to for ages and attitudes of trying to keep players on the field instead of taking them off. If player safety really is the focus why aren't head injury players removed from the field for assessment immediately? Why are HIAs designed to 'pass' a player?
I guess that what I'm saying is that the big focus and argument for RCs around head impact seems to be a clumsy ambulance at the bottom of the cliff and isn't reducing the core problems.
I think that players in this RWC were wearing mouthgards that recorded impacts and stress on the head. Will be interesting when that data all comes out. -
@Frye said in WRWC Final - NZ Vs England:
@Machpants said in WRWC Final - NZ Vs England:
Lol, so who said England wouldn't be pushing for the twenty minute card now?
20 minute red card is obviously the way forward. Of course there are too many teams that would rather roll the dice with the red card lottery because it favours the underdog to do so. Hell Wales won a 6N championship on the back of favourable red card calls. No way would I want the red card laws changed if I was them.
OK I'll play
Many in the SH believe a red card is almost spiteful
It's there to punish stupidity, thuggery, and professional cheating (cumulative YC)
Whilst the refereeing is inconsistent, the intent is not.
I don't believe any referee is looking to send someone off.
But they have a duty of care to protect the players on the pitch.
In the case being discussed above, if there had been a 20 minute RC then England would certainly have benefited from the incident as arguably NZ's best player was unable to play for the rest of the match.
@MiketheSnow said in WRWC Final - NZ Vs England:
@Frye said in WRWC Final - NZ Vs England:
@Machpants said in WRWC Final - NZ Vs England:
Lol, so who said England wouldn't be pushing for the twenty minute card now?
20 minute red card is obviously the way forward. Of course there are too many teams that would rather roll the dice with the red card lottery because it favours the underdog to do so. Hell Wales won a 6N championship on the back of favourable red card calls. No way would I want the red card laws changed if I was them.
In the case being discussed above, if there had been a 20 minute RC then England would certainly have benefited from the incident as arguably NZ's best player was unable to play for the rest of the match.
Nah. NZ lost one of their best but were still able to replace her with another handy player.
With a 20min red card England lose that player for the duration of the game, and also have to play a player down for 20 minutes. An adequate sanction for a reckless, but accidental incident.
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@Bones said in WRWC Final - NZ Vs England:
@MiketheSnow nil point! England reserve came on and gave away 2 intercept tries, while also dropping the ball over the line - thrice.
In the imaginary game I watched anyway.
That’s novel having a reserve for a red card
@MiketheSnow said in WRWC Final - NZ Vs England:
@Bones said in WRWC Final - NZ Vs England:
@MiketheSnow nil point! England reserve came on and gave away 2 intercept tries, while also dropping the ball over the line - thrice.
In the imaginary game I watched anyway.
That’s novel having a reserve for a red card
That could be an interesting/shit idea. Have a red card bench of separate players that are nominated to come on after the 20 minutes for a player who's been red carded in a position they are nominated for.
Your bench players also have to be nominated for a position and can't be used if the red card sub also covers that position.
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@MiketheSnow said in WRWC Final - NZ Vs England:
@Bones said in WRWC Final - NZ Vs England:
@MiketheSnow nil point! England reserve came on and gave away 2 intercept tries, while also dropping the ball over the line - thrice.
In the imaginary game I watched anyway.
That’s novel having a reserve for a red card
That could be an interesting/shit idea. Have a red card bench of separate players that are nominated to come on after the 20 minutes for a player who's been red carded in a position they are nominated for.
Your bench players also have to be nominated for a position and can't be used if the red card sub also covers that position.
@Bones said in WRWC Final - NZ Vs England:
@MiketheSnow said in WRWC Final - NZ Vs England:
@Bones said in WRWC Final - NZ Vs England:
@MiketheSnow nil point! England reserve came on and gave away 2 intercept tries, while also dropping the ball over the line - thrice.
In the imaginary game I watched anyway.
That’s novel having a reserve for a red card
That could be an interesting/shit idea. Have a red card bench of separate players that are nominated to come on after the 20 minutes for a player who's been red carded in a position they are nominated for.
Your bench players also have to be nominated for a position and can't be used if the red card sub also covers that position.
I'm a bit confused on that idea. Might be too early in the morning.
One other idea to throw into the mix is to increase the deterrent of a 20 minute RC by not allowing tactical subbing around it. If a prop goes off then any subs made to cover the situation are permanent. eg if you take a flanker off for numbers then that flanker can't return. In other words you have an impact on the use of the bench as well.
To be honest though, it is getting rare to see RCs that are wildly reckless. Most are timing accidents rather than decisions. -
@MiketheSnow said in WRWC Final - NZ Vs England:
@Frye said in WRWC Final - NZ Vs England:
@Machpants said in WRWC Final - NZ Vs England:
Lol, so who said England wouldn't be pushing for the twenty minute card now?
20 minute red card is obviously the way forward. Of course there are too many teams that would rather roll the dice with the red card lottery because it favours the underdog to do so. Hell Wales won a 6N championship on the back of favourable red card calls. No way would I want the red card laws changed if I was them.
OK I'll play
Many in the SH believe a red card is almost spiteful
It's there to punish stupidity, thuggery, and professional cheating (cumulative YC)
Whilst the refereeing is inconsistent, the intent is not.
I don't believe any referee is looking to send someone off.
But they have a duty of care to protect the players on the pitch.
In the case being discussed above, if there had been a 20 minute RC then England would certainly have benefited from the incident as arguably NZ's best player was unable to play for the rest of the match.
Hence the logic behind my suggestion that 'punishment' needs to be linked with the outcome of the act. Not sure of exactly how you'd do it .
What I don't get is how for all this talk about 'protecting the players' we saw two England players return to play after head knocks during the game. One flopped out and didn't move during play and another was very unsteady on her feet. We also see head knocks not attended to for ages and attitudes of trying to keep players on the field instead of taking them off. If player safety really is the focus why aren't head injury players removed from the field for assessment immediately? Why are HIAs designed to 'pass' a player?
I guess that what I'm saying is that the big focus and argument for RCs around head impact seems to be a clumsy ambulance at the bottom of the cliff and isn't reducing the core problems.
I think that players in this RWC were wearing mouthgards that recorded impacts and stress on the head. Will be interesting when that data all comes out.@Crucial yeah I really struggle with the protect the head at all costs mentality with Cards, but on the other side, they have just penalised someone, YC'd them or RC'd them for a head contect, yet the number of times the player on the receiving end of the contact doesnt go off for an HIA...if an incident is deemed to be enough to penalise a team for a head contact then it is surely enough to do an HIA straight away rather than 5 mins later
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@Bones said in WRWC Final - NZ Vs England:
@MiketheSnow said in WRWC Final - NZ Vs England:
@Bones said in WRWC Final - NZ Vs England:
@MiketheSnow nil point! England reserve came on and gave away 2 intercept tries, while also dropping the ball over the line - thrice.
In the imaginary game I watched anyway.
That’s novel having a reserve for a red card
That could be an interesting/shit idea. Have a red card bench of separate players that are nominated to come on after the 20 minutes for a player who's been red carded in a position they are nominated for.
Your bench players also have to be nominated for a position and can't be used if the red card sub also covers that position.
I'm a bit confused on that idea. Might be too early in the morning.
One other idea to throw into the mix is to increase the deterrent of a 20 minute RC by not allowing tactical subbing around it. If a prop goes off then any subs made to cover the situation are permanent. eg if you take a flanker off for numbers then that flanker can't return. In other words you have an impact on the use of the bench as well.
To be honest though, it is getting rare to see RCs that are wildly reckless. Most are timing accidents rather than decisions.@Crucial so you name your 23, but then you also have another "bench" of red card replacements. RC replacements and your normal bench are nominated for certain positions.
If you have to use an RC replacement (for a red card after 20 mins) then you can't use a normal bench player who is nominated to cover a position the RC replacement covers.
Essentially, red carded player is replaced by ideally a 3rd/4th in line player and the 2nd in line player (on the bench) can go have a shower with the red carded player.
Which could also be televised.
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@Crucial so you name your 23, but then you also have another "bench" of red card replacements. RC replacements and your normal bench are nominated for certain positions.
If you have to use an RC replacement (for a red card after 20 mins) then you can't use a normal bench player who is nominated to cover a position the RC replacement covers.
Essentially, red carded player is replaced by ideally a 3rd/4th in line player and the 2nd in line player (on the bench) can go have a shower with the red carded player.
Which could also be televised.
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Just keep the red card for thuggery (eye gouging and other grub acts) and some other colour (fuckit, Blue card) for head contact in tackles/rucks etc. Specific card for the accidental head contact that they want to reduce. Have that at 20mins, and if the players technique doesn't improve bump it up to 30mins the next year.
Leaves the onus on the coaches and players to solve the issue, doesn't ruin the game for the fans, has actions to protect the players and address the hilarious NH opinion that 20min red cards will have players running around like the love child of Richard Loe and Troy Flavell.
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@Bones so we have 31 inc those sitting on the bench, but 8 of them sitting, waiting, only able to enter the game if one of thier team mates to get a RC....
@taniwharugby I reckon 27/28 would cover it.
Prop/hooker
Other forward
Two backsOr maybe one prop, one hooker and the rest.
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Had never heard of this but another Gong for the team.
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Had never heard of this but another Gong for the team.
@Daffy-Jaffy said in WRWC Final - NZ Vs England:
Had never heard of this but another Gong for the team.
Holy schmokes fella
Might wanna read the thread...
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@Daffy-Jaffy said in WRWC Final - NZ Vs England:
Had never heard of this but another Gong for the team.
Holy schmokes fella
Might wanna read the thread...
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@Bones Funny I did scroll up a bit to check but obviously not far enough!. My post is cuter :dog_face:
@Daffy-Jaffy said in WRWC Final - NZ Vs England:
@Bones Funny I did scroll up a bit to check but obviously not far enough!. My post is cuter :dog_face:
I reckon the actual founder did it better
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Had never heard of this but another Gong for the team.
@Daffy-Jaffy said in WRWC Final - NZ Vs England:
Had never heard of this but another Gong for the team.
Dial in @Davesofthunder
