Iron-Voodoo
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@scribe said in Iron-Voodoo:
@voodoo nice work mate but imo yes you need to focus more on the bike. All that running prep won’t count for much if your ring piece is hanging out after a 180km slog.
Maybe use the trainer more during the week? 2 hr sessions doing this at say zone 2 pace is boring AF but it’s also good mental training. Then a short run brick each time. Do a long ride at the weekend.
Being in a good place after the bike leg is the absolute key to success. The run is so attritional both mentally and physically.
Question for you on HR Zones - are you able to actually do anything remotely productive in Z2? If I look at the plan I am loosely following, it looks like this:
Max = 165
Z1 = 60-65% = 105-114bmp
Z2 = 65-75% = 114-131bpm
Z3 = 75-80% = 131-140bpm
Z4 = 80-90% = 140-158bpmIf I look at anything I do, only swimming has me sitting Z2 for any length of time.
This was the week gone, adding HR's for extra data:
- Monday = rest day
- Tuesday = 1hr 20 on the trainer. average HR 141bpm
- Wednesday = Squad swimming - 3km drills, average HR 130bpm
- Thursday = Brick - 50mins on the trainer, average HR 135, then 8.24km run at 5:12/km - average HR 154bpm
- Friday = 2km swim, all FS, no stops - took almost 50mins (god I am slow) and average HR was 130bpm
- Saturday = Brick - 1hr40mins trainer (didn't capture HR) then 5km run at 4:47/km, average HR 161bpm
- Sunday = 8km run at 4:55/km, average HR 155bpm
I reckon I'd enter Z2 doing a slow walk, and I can't stay there in anything except swimming (who knew drowning was such low-stress on your heart?),.
@voodoo Kipchoge does ~80% of his training in zone two.
I watched this a couple of months ago and have adopted it in my rowing training:
The caveat is it takes some time for the body to adapt. I'm at that unenviable state where I can't run slowly enough to do low heart rate training - it's run at may preferred speed, walk until I recover, run, walk, repeat ad nauseum.
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@voodoo Kipchoge does ~80% of his training in zone two.
I watched this a couple of months ago and have adopted it in my rowing training:
The caveat is it takes some time for the body to adapt. I'm at that unenviable state where I can't run slowly enough to do low heart rate training - it's run at may preferred speed, walk until I recover, run, walk, repeat ad nauseum.
@antipodean said in Iron-Voodoo:
@voodoo Kipchoge does ~80% of his training in zone two.
I watched this a couple of months ago and have adopted it in my rowing training:
The caveat is it takes some time for the body to adapt. I'm at that unenviable state where I can't run slowly enough to do low heart rate training - it's run at may preferred speed, walk until I recover, run, walk, repeat ad nauseum.
Z2 training by extension requires huge amounts of time that I just don't have
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@antipodean said in Iron-Voodoo:
@voodoo Kipchoge does ~80% of his training in zone two.
I watched this a couple of months ago and have adopted it in my rowing training:
The caveat is it takes some time for the body to adapt. I'm at that unenviable state where I can't run slowly enough to do low heart rate training - it's run at may preferred speed, walk until I recover, run, walk, repeat ad nauseum.
Z2 training by extension requires huge amounts of time that I just don't have
@voodoo said in Iron-Voodoo:
@antipodean said in Iron-Voodoo:
@voodoo Kipchoge does ~80% of his training in zone two.
I watched this a couple of months ago and have adopted it in my rowing training:
The caveat is it takes some time for the body to adapt. I'm at that unenviable state where I can't run slowly enough to do low heart rate training - it's run at may preferred speed, walk until I recover, run, walk, repeat ad nauseum.
Z2 training by extension requires huge amounts of time that I just don't have
Yes, admittedly from what I've read it requires considerable lead time to adopt.
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@voodoo said in Iron-Voodoo:
@antipodean said in Iron-Voodoo:
@voodoo Kipchoge does ~80% of his training in zone two.
I watched this a couple of months ago and have adopted it in my rowing training:
The caveat is it takes some time for the body to adapt. I'm at that unenviable state where I can't run slowly enough to do low heart rate training - it's run at may preferred speed, walk until I recover, run, walk, repeat ad nauseum.
Z2 training by extension requires huge amounts of time that I just don't have
Yes, admittedly from what I've read it requires considerable lead time to adopt.
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@antipodean Also - fuck that 65kg skinny-ass weakling and his "check out my sub-3hr marathon while I'm jabbering away to you guys, you can do it too if you run 27,000kms in the next 10yrs" video.
Bet he can't sink piss for shit.
@voodoo said in Iron-Voodoo:
@antipodean Also - fuck that 65kg skinny-ass weakling and his "check out my sub-3hr marathon while I'm jabbering away to you guys, you can do it too if you run 27,000kms in the next 10yrs" video.
Bet he can't sink piss for shit.
Or bench press fuck all
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It is pretty funny though just how much of the solution to getting properly fit/strong/healthy/living longer is just plain old common sense. As he says, running slow ain't gonna make much difference if you smash a pie and 6 beers afterwards then get 5 hours sleep. Taking a
fucking boringsensible approach really isn't that complicated if you want to be consistently training and improvingOf course I will continue to ignore all of this and keep pushing the boat out until something happens that means I have to change my ways
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It is pretty funny though just how much of the solution to getting properly fit/strong/healthy/living longer is just plain old common sense. As he says, running slow ain't gonna make much difference if you smash a pie and 6 beers afterwards then get 5 hours sleep. Taking a
fucking boringsensible approach really isn't that complicated if you want to be consistently training and improvingOf course I will continue to ignore all of this and keep pushing the boat out until something happens that means I have to change my ways
@voodoo said in Iron-Voodoo:
It is pretty funny though just how much of the solution to getting properly fit/strong/healthy/living longer is just plain old common sense. As he says, running slow ain't gonna make much difference if you smash a pie and 6 beers afterwards then get 5 hours sleep. Taking a
fucking boringsensible approach really isn't that complicated if you want to be consistently training and improvingOf course I will continue to ignore all of this and keep pushing the boat out until something happens that means I have to change my ways
Also listen to the body as you get older.
Lathering the shit out of aching joints with Deep Heat isn’t always the answer, sometimes rest and recuperation is.
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@scribe said in Iron-Voodoo:
@voodoo nice work mate but imo yes you need to focus more on the bike. All that running prep won’t count for much if your ring piece is hanging out after a 180km slog.
Maybe use the trainer more during the week? 2 hr sessions doing this at say zone 2 pace is boring AF but it’s also good mental training. Then a short run brick each time. Do a long ride at the weekend.
Being in a good place after the bike leg is the absolute key to success. The run is so attritional both mentally and physically.
Question for you on HR Zones - are you able to actually do anything remotely productive in Z2? If I look at the plan I am loosely following, it looks like this:
Max = 165
Z1 = 60-65% = 105-114bmp
Z2 = 65-75% = 114-131bpm
Z3 = 75-80% = 131-140bpm
Z4 = 80-90% = 140-158bpmIf I look at anything I do, only swimming has me sitting Z2 for any length of time.
This was the week gone, adding HR's for extra data:
- Monday = rest day
- Tuesday = 1hr 20 on the trainer. average HR 141bpm
- Wednesday = Squad swimming - 3km drills, average HR 130bpm
- Thursday = Brick - 50mins on the trainer, average HR 135, then 8.24km run at 5:12/km - average HR 154bpm
- Friday = 2km swim, all FS, no stops - took almost 50mins (god I am slow) and average HR was 130bpm
- Saturday = Brick - 1hr40mins trainer (didn't capture HR) then 5km run at 4:47/km, average HR 161bpm
- Sunday = 8km run at 4:55/km, average HR 155bpm
I reckon I'd enter Z2 doing a slow walk, and I can't stay there in anything except swimming (who knew drowning was such low-stress on your heart?),.
@voodoo said in Iron-Voodoo:
@scribe said in Iron-Voodoo:
@voodoo nice work mate but imo yes you need to focus more on the bike. All that running prep won’t count for much if your ring piece is hanging out after a 180km slog.
Maybe use the trainer more during the week? 2 hr sessions doing this at say zone 2 pace is boring AF but it’s also good mental training. Then a short run brick each time. Do a long ride at the weekend.
Being in a good place after the bike leg is the absolute key to success. The run is so attritional both mentally and physically.
Question for you on HR Zones - are you able to actually do anything remotely productive in Z2? If I look at the plan I am loosely following, it looks like this:
Max = 165
Z1 = 60-65% = 105-114bmp
Z2 = 65-75% = 114-131bpm
Z3 = 75-80% = 131-140bpm
Z4 = 80-90% = 140-158bpmIf I look at anything I do, only swimming has me sitting Z2 for any length of time.
This was the week gone, adding HR's for extra data:
- Monday = rest day
- Tuesday = 1hr 20 on the trainer. average HR 141bpm
- Wednesday = Squad swimming - 3km drills, average HR 130bpm
- Thursday = Brick - 50mins on the trainer, average HR 135, then 8.24km run at 5:12/km - average HR 154bpm
- Friday = 2km swim, all FS, no stops - took almost 50mins (god I am slow) and average HR was 130bpm
- Saturday = Brick - 1hr40mins trainer (didn't capture HR) then 5km run at 4:47/km, average HR 161bpm
- Sunday = 8km run at 4:55/km, average HR 155bpm
I reckon I'd enter Z2 doing a slow walk, and I can't stay there in anything except swimming (who knew drowning was such low-stress on your heart?),.
Yep. You'd be lucky to get to zone 1 or 2 even when walking slow or doing weights (maybe very briefly). If you want to burn calories you either have to walk for farking hours or up that heart rate. But as you mention below, it will all go to shit if you then eat a heap of shit. Even the calories burnt in a marathon can be cancelled out relatively easily with a proper junk food binge. Swimming is an interesting one in that apparently cals burnt isn't just based on heart rate and that the body adjusting temp also plays a part. Could be bs, but more than one so-called expert has said that.
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@voodoo said in Iron-Voodoo:
@scribe said in Iron-Voodoo:
@voodoo nice work mate but imo yes you need to focus more on the bike. All that running prep won’t count for much if your ring piece is hanging out after a 180km slog.
Maybe use the trainer more during the week? 2 hr sessions doing this at say zone 2 pace is boring AF but it’s also good mental training. Then a short run brick each time. Do a long ride at the weekend.
Being in a good place after the bike leg is the absolute key to success. The run is so attritional both mentally and physically.
Question for you on HR Zones - are you able to actually do anything remotely productive in Z2? If I look at the plan I am loosely following, it looks like this:
Max = 165
Z1 = 60-65% = 105-114bmp
Z2 = 65-75% = 114-131bpm
Z3 = 75-80% = 131-140bpm
Z4 = 80-90% = 140-158bpmIf I look at anything I do, only swimming has me sitting Z2 for any length of time.
This was the week gone, adding HR's for extra data:
- Monday = rest day
- Tuesday = 1hr 20 on the trainer. average HR 141bpm
- Wednesday = Squad swimming - 3km drills, average HR 130bpm
- Thursday = Brick - 50mins on the trainer, average HR 135, then 8.24km run at 5:12/km - average HR 154bpm
- Friday = 2km swim, all FS, no stops - took almost 50mins (god I am slow) and average HR was 130bpm
- Saturday = Brick - 1hr40mins trainer (didn't capture HR) then 5km run at 4:47/km, average HR 161bpm
- Sunday = 8km run at 4:55/km, average HR 155bpm
I reckon I'd enter Z2 doing a slow walk, and I can't stay there in anything except swimming (who knew drowning was such low-stress on your heart?),.
Yep. You'd be lucky to get to zone 1 or 2 even when walking slow or doing weights (maybe very briefly). If you want to burn calories you either have to walk for farking hours or up that heart rate. But as you mention below, it will all go to shit if you then eat a heap of shit. Even the calories burnt in a marathon can be cancelled out relatively easily with a proper junk food binge. Swimming is an interesting one in that apparently cals burnt isn't just based on heart rate and that the body adjusting temp also plays a part. Could be bs, but more than one so-called expert has said that.
It does take time and patience. V little of my run training was faster than 5:40/45 pace, but I felt I could run that in an already stressed out body, for a long time ( and I did in the race).
How did you actually arrive at your max heart rate in order to establish your zones?
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It does take time and patience. V little of my run training was faster than 5:40/45 pace, but I felt I could run that in an already stressed out body, for a long time ( and I did in the race).
How did you actually arrive at your max heart rate in order to establish your zones?
@scribe said in Iron-Voodoo:
It does take time and patience. V little of my run training was faster than 5:40/45 pace, but I felt I could run that in an already stressed out body, for a long time ( and I did in the race).
How did you actually arrive at your max heart rate in order to establish your zones?
Just did the old 220 less my age calc
Maybe I’ll try my next long run at that sort of pace and see where the HR goes. It always feels annoying starting at that pace rather than a 5:15/km say, but the reality is that over 20kms it’s only 10 extra minutes out there!
Did 90mins on the trainer today with 3 x 15min efforts - Ave HR 134, Max 157 - so ALMOST a Z2 average!
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The cool thing about that chart above is the way it shows the falls when you have a quick break - the 3 x efforts are obvious, but you can see in the last effort I had to take 2 x 30 second phone calls. Clear as day. And my HR never reached the peak of the 2nd set as a result
Love data
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@scribe said in Iron-Voodoo:
It does take time and patience. V little of my run training was faster than 5:40/45 pace, but I felt I could run that in an already stressed out body, for a long time ( and I did in the race).
How did you actually arrive at your max heart rate in order to establish your zones?
Just did the old 220 less my age calc
Maybe I’ll try my next long run at that sort of pace and see where the HR goes. It always feels annoying starting at that pace rather than a 5:15/km say, but the reality is that over 20kms it’s only 10 extra minutes out there!
Did 90mins on the trainer today with 3 x 15min efforts - Ave HR 134, Max 157 - so ALMOST a Z2 average!
@voodoo short of being tested in a lab, there are ‘better’ ways of approximating max heart rate via physical tests you can do yourself Just have a quick google. You may find it’s actually higher than you think.
The 220 age thing is about as useful as the BMI calc telling an athlete that they’re fat.
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@voodoo short of being tested in a lab, there are ‘better’ ways of approximating max heart rate via physical tests you can do yourself Just have a quick google. You may find it’s actually higher than you think.
The 220 age thing is about as useful as the BMI calc telling an athlete that they’re fat.
@scribe said in Iron-Voodoo:
@voodoo short of being tested in a lab, there are ‘better’ ways of approximating max heart rate via physical tests you can do yourself Just have a quick google. You may find it’s actually higher than you think.
The 220 age thing is about as useful as the BMI calc telling an athlete that they’re fat.
I’ve always been obese according to BMI
Have never heard of other approximations for max HR, other than Antipodeans video talking about the “talk test”. Will Google
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@scribe said in Iron-Voodoo:
@voodoo short of being tested in a lab, there are ‘better’ ways of approximating max heart rate via physical tests you can do yourself Just have a quick google. You may find it’s actually higher than you think.
The 220 age thing is about as useful as the BMI calc telling an athlete that they’re fat.
I’ve always been obese according to BMI
Have never heard of other approximations for max HR, other than Antipodeans video talking about the “talk test”. Will Google
@voodoo there is some evidence that 211-0.64*age is reasonably accurate for fit people who train regularly. How does that look?
Or do a physical test like a 5km test where you warm up, run 5 km hard with the last km and esp 200m full gas. Max heart rate is at the end!
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Interesting reading and links.
I don't have 27,500 km in 10 years, but I do have 3.5 years & 6,500 km to comment on.
I find the HR part drops very quickly when you stop/start training. I generally run around 5:30-5:35 p/km pace and that usually gives me an average HR of 148-150. However, if I take even a couple of weeks off, then that HR will rise quickly to 155-157 and if I take anything over a month off, my first couple of runs back will be 50-60% above 160 (zone 5 for me). I've kept logs of every run of done with some basic metrics & it's quite fascinating stuff. The fitter you get, the quicker your heart rate drops off too. Even when running 2 hour plus runs, I generally find straight away I can converse without catching breath when stopped.
My problem with training, is that apparently I run too fast. 4 hour marathon is 5:41 p/km so that sort of what I mentally aim for. Yet, runners world and others say to train for 4 hours you should train at 6-6:15 p/km pace. Easier right? Well, here's the thing. No. At 5:30-5:40 I'm in a nice rhythm, sort of gliding across the tarmac/trail. But at 6:15 I feel really clumpy with more effort / strain on my knees etc. I simply cannot train at that pace. Yes, the cardio will find it easier, but the body / joints simply struggle.
I think weight has something to do with it as I'm quite heavy for a runner (stocky is what I think, but fat is probably the truth). I'm 177cm / 5'9.5" and currently 91.5 kg (was 95.2 at start of year). I suspect if I was running at 80kg (aim weight for NY marathon in November) then I might find things a bit easier.
What were people saying about binging after a huge run again?
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Interesting reading and links.
I don't have 27,500 km in 10 years, but I do have 3.5 years & 6,500 km to comment on.
I find the HR part drops very quickly when you stop/start training. I generally run around 5:30-5:35 p/km pace and that usually gives me an average HR of 148-150. However, if I take even a couple of weeks off, then that HR will rise quickly to 155-157 and if I take anything over a month off, my first couple of runs back will be 50-60% above 160 (zone 5 for me). I've kept logs of every run of done with some basic metrics & it's quite fascinating stuff. The fitter you get, the quicker your heart rate drops off too. Even when running 2 hour plus runs, I generally find straight away I can converse without catching breath when stopped.
My problem with training, is that apparently I run too fast. 4 hour marathon is 5:41 p/km so that sort of what I mentally aim for. Yet, runners world and others say to train for 4 hours you should train at 6-6:15 p/km pace. Easier right? Well, here's the thing. No. At 5:30-5:40 I'm in a nice rhythm, sort of gliding across the tarmac/trail. But at 6:15 I feel really clumpy with more effort / strain on my knees etc. I simply cannot train at that pace. Yes, the cardio will find it easier, but the body / joints simply struggle.
I think weight has something to do with it as I'm quite heavy for a runner (stocky is what I think, but fat is probably the truth). I'm 177cm / 5'9.5" and currently 91.5 kg (was 95.2 at start of year). I suspect if I was running at 80kg (aim weight for NY marathon in November) then I might find things a bit easier.
What were people saying about binging after a huge run again?
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@scribe said in Iron-Voodoo:
@voodoo short of being tested in a lab, there are ‘better’ ways of approximating max heart rate via physical tests you can do yourself Just have a quick google. You may find it’s actually higher than you think.
The 220 age thing is about as useful as the BMI calc telling an athlete that they’re fat.
I’ve always been obese according to BMI
Have never heard of other approximations for max HR, other than Antipodeans video talking about the “talk test”. Will Google
@voodoo said in Iron-Voodoo:
@scribe said in Iron-Voodoo:
@voodoo short of being tested in a lab, there are ‘better’ ways of approximating max heart rate via physical tests you can do yourself Just have a quick google. You may find it’s actually higher than you think.
The 220 age thing is about as useful as the BMI calc telling an athlete that they’re fat.
**I’ve always been obese according to BMI
**
Have never heard of other approximations for max HR, other than Antipodeans video talking about the “talk test”. Will GoogleForget BMI. Ridiculously outdated.
I’m close to 100kg but can still squeeze into size 32 jeans.
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@MajorRage I’m the same, I hate running slower than what feels like my natural pace. Just feels like it’s harder to do.
But maybe I’ll give it a go
@voodoo you’re running fresh though right? I guarantee you that you’ll be completely poked after 1 hr+ swimming and 5:30+ cycling. The last thing you’ll feel like doing is running. You’re effectively training to go as fast as you can whilst conserving as much energy as possible in order to fight the physical and mental pain demons that will be biting your arse as you start the run.
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@voodoo you’re running fresh though right? I guarantee you that you’ll be completely poked after 1 hr+ swimming and 5:30+ cycling. The last thing you’ll feel like doing is running. You’re effectively training to go as fast as you can whilst conserving as much energy as possible in order to fight the physical and mental pain demons that will be biting your arse as you start the run.
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@voodoo you’re running fresh though right? I guarantee you that you’ll be completely poked after 1 hr+ swimming and 5:30+ cycling. The last thing you’ll feel like doing is running. You’re effectively training to go as fast as you can whilst conserving as much energy as possible in order to fight the physical and mental pain demons that will be biting your arse as you start the run.
@scribe of course, I guess the academic debate is whether I’m better preparing my body for that slog by running 2 hours at 5:15 (which is hard) or by running 2:10 hours at 5:45 (which isn’t by comparison)
It just feels weird that the slower run is supposedly better prep, I always feel like I’m better off pushing myself with my available time
Of course if I had 4 hours I could keep my HR at 130 and go as slow as I wanted, but that’s not an option
