Iron-Voodoo
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Interesting reading and links.
I don't have 27,500 km in 10 years, but I do have 3.5 years & 6,500 km to comment on.
I find the HR part drops very quickly when you stop/start training. I generally run around 5:30-5:35 p/km pace and that usually gives me an average HR of 148-150. However, if I take even a couple of weeks off, then that HR will rise quickly to 155-157 and if I take anything over a month off, my first couple of runs back will be 50-60% above 160 (zone 5 for me). I've kept logs of every run of done with some basic metrics & it's quite fascinating stuff. The fitter you get, the quicker your heart rate drops off too. Even when running 2 hour plus runs, I generally find straight away I can converse without catching breath when stopped.
My problem with training, is that apparently I run too fast. 4 hour marathon is 5:41 p/km so that sort of what I mentally aim for. Yet, runners world and others say to train for 4 hours you should train at 6-6:15 p/km pace. Easier right? Well, here's the thing. No. At 5:30-5:40 I'm in a nice rhythm, sort of gliding across the tarmac/trail. But at 6:15 I feel really clumpy with more effort / strain on my knees etc. I simply cannot train at that pace. Yes, the cardio will find it easier, but the body / joints simply struggle.
I think weight has something to do with it as I'm quite heavy for a runner (stocky is what I think, but fat is probably the truth). I'm 177cm / 5'9.5" and currently 91.5 kg (was 95.2 at start of year). I suspect if I was running at 80kg (aim weight for NY marathon in November) then I might find things a bit easier.
What were people saying about binging after a huge run again?
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Interesting reading and links.
I don't have 27,500 km in 10 years, but I do have 3.5 years & 6,500 km to comment on.
I find the HR part drops very quickly when you stop/start training. I generally run around 5:30-5:35 p/km pace and that usually gives me an average HR of 148-150. However, if I take even a couple of weeks off, then that HR will rise quickly to 155-157 and if I take anything over a month off, my first couple of runs back will be 50-60% above 160 (zone 5 for me). I've kept logs of every run of done with some basic metrics & it's quite fascinating stuff. The fitter you get, the quicker your heart rate drops off too. Even when running 2 hour plus runs, I generally find straight away I can converse without catching breath when stopped.
My problem with training, is that apparently I run too fast. 4 hour marathon is 5:41 p/km so that sort of what I mentally aim for. Yet, runners world and others say to train for 4 hours you should train at 6-6:15 p/km pace. Easier right? Well, here's the thing. No. At 5:30-5:40 I'm in a nice rhythm, sort of gliding across the tarmac/trail. But at 6:15 I feel really clumpy with more effort / strain on my knees etc. I simply cannot train at that pace. Yes, the cardio will find it easier, but the body / joints simply struggle.
I think weight has something to do with it as I'm quite heavy for a runner (stocky is what I think, but fat is probably the truth). I'm 177cm / 5'9.5" and currently 91.5 kg (was 95.2 at start of year). I suspect if I was running at 80kg (aim weight for NY marathon in November) then I might find things a bit easier.
What were people saying about binging after a huge run again?
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@scribe said in Iron-Voodoo:
@voodoo short of being tested in a lab, there are ‘better’ ways of approximating max heart rate via physical tests you can do yourself Just have a quick google. You may find it’s actually higher than you think.
The 220 age thing is about as useful as the BMI calc telling an athlete that they’re fat.
I’ve always been obese according to BMI
Have never heard of other approximations for max HR, other than Antipodeans video talking about the “talk test”. Will Google
@voodoo said in Iron-Voodoo:
@scribe said in Iron-Voodoo:
@voodoo short of being tested in a lab, there are ‘better’ ways of approximating max heart rate via physical tests you can do yourself Just have a quick google. You may find it’s actually higher than you think.
The 220 age thing is about as useful as the BMI calc telling an athlete that they’re fat.
**I’ve always been obese according to BMI
**
Have never heard of other approximations for max HR, other than Antipodeans video talking about the “talk test”. Will GoogleForget BMI. Ridiculously outdated.
I’m close to 100kg but can still squeeze into size 32 jeans.
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@MajorRage I’m the same, I hate running slower than what feels like my natural pace. Just feels like it’s harder to do.
But maybe I’ll give it a go
@voodoo you’re running fresh though right? I guarantee you that you’ll be completely poked after 1 hr+ swimming and 5:30+ cycling. The last thing you’ll feel like doing is running. You’re effectively training to go as fast as you can whilst conserving as much energy as possible in order to fight the physical and mental pain demons that will be biting your arse as you start the run.
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@voodoo you’re running fresh though right? I guarantee you that you’ll be completely poked after 1 hr+ swimming and 5:30+ cycling. The last thing you’ll feel like doing is running. You’re effectively training to go as fast as you can whilst conserving as much energy as possible in order to fight the physical and mental pain demons that will be biting your arse as you start the run.
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@voodoo you’re running fresh though right? I guarantee you that you’ll be completely poked after 1 hr+ swimming and 5:30+ cycling. The last thing you’ll feel like doing is running. You’re effectively training to go as fast as you can whilst conserving as much energy as possible in order to fight the physical and mental pain demons that will be biting your arse as you start the run.
@scribe of course, I guess the academic debate is whether I’m better preparing my body for that slog by running 2 hours at 5:15 (which is hard) or by running 2:10 hours at 5:45 (which isn’t by comparison)
It just feels weird that the slower run is supposedly better prep, I always feel like I’m better off pushing myself with my available time
Of course if I had 4 hours I could keep my HR at 130 and go as slow as I wanted, but that’s not an option
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@voodoo you’re running fresh though right? I guarantee you that you’ll be completely poked after 1 hr+ swimming and 5:30+ cycling. The last thing you’ll feel like doing is running. You’re effectively training to go as fast as you can whilst conserving as much energy as possible in order to fight the physical and mental pain demons that will be biting your arse as you start the run.
@scribe said in Iron-Voodoo:
@voodoo you’re running fresh though right? I guarantee you that you’ll be completely poked after 1 hr+ swimming and 5:30+ cycling. The last thing you’ll feel like doing is running. You’re effectively training to go as fast as you can whilst conserving as much energy as possible in order to fight the physical and mental pain demons that will be biting your arse as you start the run.
I love the way you’ve assumed just an hour swimming and 5:30 on the bike btw
I am targeting 1:40 in the water and I reckon 7hrs on the bike
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@scribe said in Iron-Voodoo:
@voodoo you’re running fresh though right? I guarantee you that you’ll be completely poked after 1 hr+ swimming and 5:30+ cycling. The last thing you’ll feel like doing is running. You’re effectively training to go as fast as you can whilst conserving as much energy as possible in order to fight the physical and mental pain demons that will be biting your arse as you start the run.
I love the way you’ve assumed just an hour swimming and 5:30 on the bike btw
I am targeting 1:40 in the water and I reckon 7hrs on the bike
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In all seriousness, 9 hours of effort (incl transitions) kind of reinforces my point.
Training for this can be quite tricky and complex and arguably you don’t really know what works for you until you execute.
As I mentioned, I did the same race 4 years apart. 2nd time around I loaded up on cycling. Whist I did a couple of v short sharp runs during the week, my long runs were no more than 2 hrs, all in zone 2. I did finish these runs feeling v fresh with the feeling I could run all day (and wondering if I was getting any benefit). In the 2nd race I set my virtual partner to match my training pace and followed that even when adrenaline kicked in and told me to run faster. I finished in a reasonable time, knackered, but still able to function.
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@scribe said in Iron-Voodoo:
@voodoo 1:40 swim? Try using your arms as well
I’m incredibly slow in the water. It’s my kick that doesn’t exist. The aim of course is to exit the water without feeling taxed, if it’s 80mins or 110mins, I just want to feel fresh on the bike.
The pain will start after that
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In all seriousness, 9 hours of effort (incl transitions) kind of reinforces my point.
Training for this can be quite tricky and complex and arguably you don’t really know what works for you until you execute.
As I mentioned, I did the same race 4 years apart. 2nd time around I loaded up on cycling. Whist I did a couple of v short sharp runs during the week, my long runs were no more than 2 hrs, all in zone 2. I did finish these runs feeling v fresh with the feeling I could run all day (and wondering if I was getting any benefit). In the 2nd race I set my virtual partner to match my training pace and followed that even when adrenaline kicked in and told me to run faster. I finished in a reasonable time, knackered, but still able to function.
@scribe said in Iron-Voodoo:
In all seriousness, 9 hours of effort (incl transitions) kind of reinforces my point.
Training for this can be quite tricky and complex and arguably you don’t really know what works for you until you execute.
As I mentioned, I did the same race 4 years apart. 2nd time around I loaded up on cycling. Whist I did a couple of v short sharp runs during the week, my long runs were no more than 2 hrs, all in zone 2. I did finish these runs feeling v fresh with the feeling I could run all day (and wondering if I was getting any benefit). In the 2nd race I set my virtual partner to match my training pace and followed that even when adrenaline kicked in and told me to run faster. I finished in a reasonable time, knackered, but still able to function.
9 hours??? If I can sneak under 16 hours I’ll be stoked!!!
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@scribe said in Iron-Voodoo:
In all seriousness, 9 hours of effort (incl transitions) kind of reinforces my point.
Training for this can be quite tricky and complex and arguably you don’t really know what works for you until you execute.
As I mentioned, I did the same race 4 years apart. 2nd time around I loaded up on cycling. Whist I did a couple of v short sharp runs during the week, my long runs were no more than 2 hrs, all in zone 2. I did finish these runs feeling v fresh with the feeling I could run all day (and wondering if I was getting any benefit). In the 2nd race I set my virtual partner to match my training pace and followed that even when adrenaline kicked in and told me to run faster. I finished in a reasonable time, knackered, but still able to function.
9 hours??? If I can sneak under 16 hours I’ll be stoked!!!
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@scribe said in Iron-Voodoo:
@voodoo 1:40 swim? Try using your arms as well
I’m incredibly slow in the water. It’s my kick that doesn’t exist. The aim of course is to exit the water without feeling taxed, if it’s 80mins or 110mins, I just want to feel fresh on the bike.
The pain will start after that
@voodoo said in Iron-Voodoo:
@scribe said in Iron-Voodoo:
@voodoo 1:40 swim? Try using your arms as well
I’m incredibly slow in the water. It’s my kick that doesn’t exist. The aim of course is to exit the water without feeling taxed, if it’s 80mins or 110mins, I just want to feel fresh on the bike.
The pain will start after that
You shouldn't need to kick much (assume it’s a wetsuit swim). Less kicking equals more pedal power!
Practice drafting in the pool. Finding someone in the race to swim either directly behind (almost touching their feet) or on their hip, makes a big difference and saves lots of energy. P*sses people off but loads of people do it.
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@voodoo said in Iron-Voodoo:
@scribe said in Iron-Voodoo:
@voodoo 1:40 swim? Try using your arms as well
I’m incredibly slow in the water. It’s my kick that doesn’t exist. The aim of course is to exit the water without feeling taxed, if it’s 80mins or 110mins, I just want to feel fresh on the bike.
The pain will start after that
You shouldn't need to kick much (assume it’s a wetsuit swim). Less kicking equals more pedal power!
Practice drafting in the pool. Finding someone in the race to swim either directly behind (almost touching their feet) or on their hip, makes a big difference and saves lots of energy. P*sses people off but loads of people do it.
@scribe said in Iron-Voodoo:
@voodoo said in Iron-Voodoo:
@scribe said in Iron-Voodoo:
@voodoo 1:40 swim? Try using your arms as well
I’m incredibly slow in the water. It’s my kick that doesn’t exist. The aim of course is to exit the water without feeling taxed, if it’s 80mins or 110mins, I just want to feel fresh on the bike.
The pain will start after that
You shouldn't need to kick much (assume it’s a wetsuit swim). Less kicking equals more pedal power!
Practice drafting in the pool. Finding someone in the race to swim either directly behind (almost touching their feet) or on their hip, makes a big difference and saves lots of energy. P*sses people off but loads of people do it.
90% chance it’s a wetsuit. If not, I’ll be devastated
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So I redid my max HR based on this formula: =211-0.64*Age and I am now 182.2 - that's means the top bound of Z2 goes up to 137
Just went out for an hour jog to see how far I could go without breaching this - I averaged 136, spiked a couple of times over 140, but generally stayed under 135 at the start and 140 towards the end (despite slowing right down)
Turns out it was just on 10kms, so ave 6min/km. An interesting exercise, might try it again on a longer run - for the shorter ones it feels like I should push harder
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So I redid my max HR based on this formula: =211-0.64*Age and I am now 182.2 - that's means the top bound of Z2 goes up to 137
Just went out for an hour jog to see how far I could go without breaching this - I averaged 136, spiked a couple of times over 140, but generally stayed under 135 at the start and 140 towards the end (despite slowing right down)
Turns out it was just on 10kms, so ave 6min/km. An interesting exercise, might try it again on a longer run - for the shorter ones it feels like I should push harder
@voodoo I focus on zone 2 and do incline walks, speed is gradually improving, and I keep it firmly just below a level I have observed which looks to be where my body is switching from more slow twitch to fast twitch -I can see it on the HB app where the HB is more reactive and variable, and also after a hill workout, the HB will stop just above that level for a while. For me that's about 121-so I target 115-120. MAX HB is about 172-174 I had a few months off due to a cut on my heel, but will resume running in that range soon, trying for 6-8 hours a week. Plus harder stuff. I definitely feel health improvements with the currect 4-5 hours a week.
(I use a chest strap, so can see the real time HB, and quickly drop my arms or breathe more to slow the HB)
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Another week gone,
- Monday - rest day
- Tuesday - 1hr 30mins on the trainer - sore ass
- Wednesday - nothing, wife away so kids and work
- Thursday - the 10km I mentioned above in Z2
- Friday - short city run, 5kms @ 4:55/km
- Saturday - 100kms on the bike, out to West Head and McCarrs - Ave HR 126, Max 157.
- 5km run off the bike, 5.7kms @ 5:15/km pace, Ave HR 170, Max 182 :astonished_face: - Sunday - 1hr 40min run up to North Head, got through 17.4kms @ 5:44/km - was hot and hilly (fuck off @jk), Ave HR 153, Max 173
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Another week gone,
- Monday - rest day
- Tuesday - 1hr 30mins on the trainer - sore ass
- Wednesday - nothing, wife away so kids and work
- Thursday - the 10km I mentioned above in Z2
- Friday - short city run, 5kms @ 4:55/km
- Saturday - 100kms on the bike, out to West Head and McCarrs - Ave HR 126, Max 157.
- 5km run off the bike, 5.7kms @ 5:15/km pace, Ave HR 170, Max 182 :astonished_face: - Sunday - 1hr 40min run up to North Head, got through 17.4kms @ 5:44/km - was hot and hilly (fuck off @jk), Ave HR 153, Max 173
@voodoo said in Iron-Voodoo:
Another week gone,
- Monday - rest day
- Tuesday - 1hr 30mins on the trainer - sore ass
- Wednesday - nothing, wife away so kids and work
- Thursday - the 10km I mentioned above in Z2
- Friday - short city run, 5kms @ 4:55/km
- Saturday - 100kms on the bike, out to West Head and McCarrs - Ave HR 126, Max 157.
- 5km run off the bike, 5.7kms @ 5:15/km pace, Ave HR 170, Max 182 :astonished_face: - Sunday - 1hr 40min run up to North Head, got through 17.4kms @ 5:44/km - was hot and hilly (fuck off @jk), Ave HR 153, Max 173
I shall never cast a shadow on any run mate. Those lycra clad gently sloped bike rides on sealed roads though......
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@voodoo said in Iron-Voodoo:
Another week gone,
- Monday - rest day
- Tuesday - 1hr 30mins on the trainer - sore ass
- Wednesday - nothing, wife away so kids and work
- Thursday - the 10km I mentioned above in Z2
- Friday - short city run, 5kms @ 4:55/km
- Saturday - 100kms on the bike, out to West Head and McCarrs - Ave HR 126, Max 157.
- 5km run off the bike, 5.7kms @ 5:15/km pace, Ave HR 170, Max 182 :astonished_face: - Sunday - 1hr 40min run up to North Head, got through 17.4kms @ 5:44/km - was hot and hilly (fuck off @jk), Ave HR 153, Max 173
I shall never cast a shadow on any run mate. Those lycra clad gently sloped bike rides on sealed roads though......
@JK said in Iron-Voodoo:
@voodoo said in Iron-Voodoo:
Another week gone,
- Monday - rest day
- Tuesday - 1hr 30mins on the trainer - sore ass
- Wednesday - nothing, wife away so kids and work
- Thursday - the 10km I mentioned above in Z2
- Friday - short city run, 5kms @ 4:55/km
- Saturday - 100kms on the bike, out to West Head and McCarrs - Ave HR 126, Max 157.
- 5km run off the bike, 5.7kms @ 5:15/km pace, Ave HR 170, Max 182 :astonished_face: - Sunday - 1hr 40min run up to North Head, got through 17.4kms @ 5:44/km - was hot and hilly (fuck off @jk), Ave HR 153, Max 173
I shall never cast a shadow on any run mate. Those lycra clad gently sloped bike rides on sealed roads though......
I do notice the photo's you post on your mountain bike escapades are always only from the neck up...
