Chiefs v Highlanders
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@no-quarter said in Chiefs v Highlanders:
@mariner4life said in Chiefs v Highlanders:
@nepia fair bit of truth there, but then i think BB is an ordinary test match 10 (but a great rugby player if that makes sense). I also think JB is the most overrated player in NZ, probably the most overrated in a while.
My opinion is also influenced by the fact i find Dmac incredibly irritating, I'm just not a fan.
I just don't see a composed test player in there anywhere.
Jordies performances against the Lions for the ABs (MOTM) and Canes got everyone super excited. He appears well suited to test footy. DMac on the other hand has looked out of his depth against far lesser opposition. Those two players are not in the same league right now.
Beauden is an interesting one - his game is not that well suited to test footy, particularly at 10, but he's so fucking good he generally makes up for it with moments of brilliance. He and DC are not in the same league though, DC was IMO the GOAT first five in the world. We're unlikely to see another 10 of his quality in our lifetimes.
I always find this a curious statement (unless you're close to your expiry date). The next "DC quality" first-five may already be playing in a school U15 team somewhere, but just needing some more years to develop and grow. And some players just develop later or more slowly. How can you tell that a Mo'unga, Perofeta or Falcon (or a Plummer, McClutchie etc) can't become a DC quality player in a few years from now? Odd. Players also don't need to be DC clones or have an identical playing style to reach that quality.
I also rate BB higher than some other posters on the Fern, apparently ...
@stargazer said in Chiefs v Highlanders:
@no-quarter said in Chiefs v Highlanders:
@mariner4life said in Chiefs v Highlanders:
@nepia fair bit of truth there, but then i think BB is an ordinary test match 10 (but a great rugby player if that makes sense). I also think JB is the most overrated player in NZ, probably the most overrated in a while.
My opinion is also influenced by the fact i find Dmac incredibly irritating, I'm just not a fan.
I just don't see a composed test player in there anywhere.
Jordies performances against the Lions for the ABs (MOTM) and Canes got everyone super excited. He appears well suited to test footy. DMac on the other hand has looked out of his depth against far lesser opposition. Those two players are not in the same league right now.
Beauden is an interesting one - his game is not that well suited to test footy, particularly at 10, but he's so fucking good he generally makes up for it with moments of brilliance. He and DC are not in the same league though, DC was IMO the GOAT first five in the world. We're unlikely to see another 10 of his quality in our lifetimes.
I always find this a curious statement (unless you're close to your expiry date). The next "DC quality" first-five may already be playing in a school U15 team somewhere, but just needing some more years to develop and grow. And some players just develop later or more slowly. How can you tell that a Mo'unga, Perofeta or Falcon (or a Plummer, McClutchie etc) can't become a DC quality player in a few years from now? Odd. Players also don't need to be DC clones or have an identical playing style to reach that quality.
I also rate BB higher than some other posters on the Fern, apparently ...
Except they sort of do. Dan Carter was a complete player. Generalship, passing, field kicking, goal kicking, speed, defence etc. Any player like Beauden who is great but has glaring weaknesses are always going to be talked about like Mehrtens. "Mehrtens was a great player but....." and we all know what the but is....How good would Barrett have to be as an attacking player to be regarded as better than Carter? How good would Wilkinson's general play had to have been, to be regarded as better than Carter?
The only way to beat Carter is to do everything he did as well as he did and never have a form slump/injuries (as Carter did post 2011). Or else to somehow combine the best of Barrett and Wilkinson. It's possible but I doubt I will ever see it.
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@mariner4life said in Chiefs v Highlanders:
@nepia fair bit of truth there, but then i think BB is an ordinary test match 10 (but a great rugby player if that makes sense). I also think JB is the most overrated player in NZ, probably the most overrated in a while.
My opinion is also influenced by the fact i find Dmac incredibly irritating, I'm just not a fan.
I just don't see a composed test player in there anywhere.
Jordies performances against the Lions for the ABs (MOTM) and Canes got everyone super excited. He appears well suited to test footy. DMac on the other hand has looked out of his depth against far lesser opposition. Those two players are not in the same league right now.
Beauden is an interesting one - his game is not that well suited to test footy, particularly at 10, but he's so fucking good he generally makes up for it with moments of brilliance. He and DC are not in the same league though, DC was IMO the GOAT first five in the world. We're unlikely to see another 10 of his quality in our lifetimes.
@no-quarter said in Chiefs v Highlanders:
@mariner4life said in Chiefs v Highlanders:
@nepia fair bit of truth there, but then i think BB is an ordinary test match 10 (but a great rugby player if that makes sense). I also think JB is the most overrated player in NZ, probably the most overrated in a while.
My opinion is also influenced by the fact i find Dmac incredibly irritating, I'm just not a fan.
I just don't see a composed test player in there anywhere.
Jordies performances against the Lions for the ABs (MOTM) and Canes got everyone super excited. He appears well suited to test footy. DMac on the other hand has looked out of his depth against far lesser opposition. Those two players are not in the same league right now.
Beauden is an interesting one - his game is not that well suited to test footy, particularly at 10, but he's so fucking good he generally makes up for it with moments of brilliance. He and DC are not in the same league though, DC was IMO the GOAT first five in the world. We're unlikely to see another 10 of his quality in our lifetimes.
While I agree with most of this post, I think it's a bit premature to rate Jordie as the second coming on one test against the Lions (where we drew). Lets see how he goes at test level after a year (which we would have seen last year if he didn't get injured) and then judge.
@Stargazer Carter was a breed apart (and you know I wouldn't say that lightly about a Cantab!) - he was the most complete 10 we've ever have and by far the best 10 we've ever had. None of those 10s you mention have shown yet that they are going to reach (let alone surpass) Carter levels. In fact none of them really look like they'll reach Cruden in his prime (although I hope they do for the ABs going forward).
Of course, it would be awesome if someone better than Carter came along (as long as they play for us!)
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@no-quarter said in Chiefs v Highlanders:
@mariner4life said in Chiefs v Highlanders:
@nepia fair bit of truth there, but then i think BB is an ordinary test match 10 (but a great rugby player if that makes sense). I also think JB is the most overrated player in NZ, probably the most overrated in a while.
My opinion is also influenced by the fact i find Dmac incredibly irritating, I'm just not a fan.
I just don't see a composed test player in there anywhere.
Jordies performances against the Lions for the ABs (MOTM) and Canes got everyone super excited. He appears well suited to test footy. DMac on the other hand has looked out of his depth against far lesser opposition. Those two players are not in the same league right now.
Beauden is an interesting one - his game is not that well suited to test footy, particularly at 10, but he's so fucking good he generally makes up for it with moments of brilliance. He and DC are not in the same league though, DC was IMO the GOAT first five in the world. We're unlikely to see another 10 of his quality in our lifetimes.
I always find this a curious statement (unless you're close to your expiry date). The next "DC quality" first-five may already be playing in a school U15 team somewhere, but just needing some more years to develop and grow. And some players just develop later or more slowly. How can you tell that a Mo'unga, Perofeta or Falcon (or a Plummer, McClutchie etc) can't become a DC quality player in a few years from now? Odd. Players also don't need to be DC clones or have an identical playing style to reach that quality.
I also rate BB higher than some other posters on the Fern, apparently ...
@stargazer because Carter was Carter from day 1. Players of that quality aren't made. In my 30-odd years of watching he's the best, most complete I've seen. The Dan and Richie double act was a fucking blessing.
And then he went on to dominate his last test 13 years later. Jesus what a player.
Those guys you name aren't in the same city, let alone ballpark. I miss Dan.
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@Nepia yeah, agree re: Jordie. Was just musing about why he's so highly rated - those performances got us all pretty excited at the time!
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@mariner4life said in Chiefs v Highlanders:
@bones said in Chiefs v Highlanders:
DMac is erratic and prone to disastrous errors.
In an ideal world he would never get close to a regular test gig. And yet he's looking like a certain bench option. Jesus.
I think on balance DMac does more good than bad and TBH, we all forget (well some of us don't) that BB was an erratic 10 for a number of years but was an AB for all the other stuff he brought to the team.
I think DMac's errors get focused on a lot more than some of his contemporaries liek Jordie Barrett. I can't remember whether it was last week or the week before where Jordie had an awesome first half and then a really awful second half yet the DMac style derision wasn't heaped on him.
I guess it is up to the selectors to decide whether his good outweighs the bad and if they're happy to go with a 10 on the bench or a utility like DMac. We might see both DMac and Jordie on the bench together.
Edit: In saying that it would be nice if DMac could bring his eror rate down as the season progresses.
@nepia said in Chiefs v Highlanders:
I think on balance DMac does more good than bad and TBH, we all forget (well some of us don't) that BB was an erratic 10 for a number of years but was an AB for all the other stuff he brought to the team.
True he grew into the role, but what he brought to the ABs was quite different; it wasn't a catalogue of disastrous decisions, rather a well earned nickname of goldenballs. His injections had the Midas touch.
@bovidae said in Chiefs v Highlanders:
I'm glad I am not the only one criticising Weber. Again, his passing was erratic with two passes bouncing to DMac, and others high to their intended man.
An inability to pass well should prevent a scrumhalf from playing at this level.
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@nepia said in Chiefs v Highlanders:
I think on balance DMac does more good than bad and TBH, we all forget (well some of us don't) that BB was an erratic 10 for a number of years but was an AB for all the other stuff he brought to the team.
True he grew into the role, but what he brought to the ABs was quite different; it wasn't a catalogue of disastrous decisions, rather a well earned nickname of goldenballs. His injections had the Midas touch.
@bovidae said in Chiefs v Highlanders:
I'm glad I am not the only one criticising Weber. Again, his passing was erratic with two passes bouncing to DMac, and others high to their intended man.
An inability to pass well should prevent a scrumhalf from playing at this level.
@antipodean said in Chiefs v Highlanders:
An inability to pass well should prevent a scrumhalf from playing at this level.
Have you seen TJP's passing at times?
I can forgive some poor passes if you bring something else to the table. In Weber's case, his strength is his running but we haven't seen much of that yet.
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@nepia fair bit of truth there, but then i think BB is an ordinary test match 10 (but a great rugby player if that makes sense). I also think JB is the most overrated player in NZ, probably the most overrated in a while.
My opinion is also influenced by the fact i find Dmac incredibly irritating, I'm just not a fan.
I just don't see a composed test player in there anywhere.
@mariner4life said in Chiefs v Highlanders:
@nepia fair bit of truth there, but then i think BB is an ordinary test match 10 (but a great rugby player if that makes sense). I also think JB is the most overrated player in NZ, probably the most overrated in a while.
My opinion is also influenced by the fact i find Dmac incredibly irritating, I'm just not a fan.
I just don't see a composed test player in there anywhere.
After watching JB against the Highlanders and the Rebels, I can understand why he is so highly rated.
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The game is ever evolving, so I fully expect to see a first five better than Danny boy, before I shuffle off the mortal coil. Hopefully, he will be a Crusader.
I quite like DMac. I'm not sure he'll ever be a great first five, but he's got some stuff that very few others have in terms of elusiveness with ball in hand and he's brave as hell. That being said, Beaudy starts and Mo'unga sits on the bench if I'm choosing.
You've all been spoiled by Danny. Beauden is already in our top five ever first fives and has plenty of chance to get better. I can't recall anyone with that scintillating pace and most of the rest of his game is perfectly adequate.
We can go forward confidently with Beauden, Mo'unga, Dmac, Goodhue, Reiko, Jordie and Dmac in our backline, and people like Will Jordan coming through.
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The game is ever evolving, so I fully expect to see a first five better than Danny boy, before I shuffle off the mortal coil. Hopefully, he will be a Crusader.
I quite like DMac. I'm not sure he'll ever be a great first five, but he's got some stuff that very few others have in terms of elusiveness with ball in hand and he's brave as hell. That being said, Beaudy starts and Mo'unga sits on the bench if I'm choosing.
You've all been spoiled by Danny. Beauden is already in our top five ever first fives and has plenty of chance to get better. I can't recall anyone with that scintillating pace and most of the rest of his game is perfectly adequate.
We can go forward confidently with Beauden, Mo'unga, Dmac, Goodhue, Reiko, Jordie and Dmac in our backline, and people like Will Jordan coming through.
@chris-b said in Chiefs v Highlanders:
The game is ever evolving, so I fully expect to see a first five better than Danny boy, before I shuffle off the mortal coil. Hopefully, he will be a Crusader.
I quite like DMac. I'm not sure he'll ever be a great first five, but he's got some stuff that very few others have in terms of elusiveness with ball in hand and he's brave as hell. That being said, Beaudy starts and Mo'unga sits on the bench if I'm choosing.
You've all been spoiled by Danny. Beauden is already in our top five ever first fives and has plenty of chance to get better. I can't recall anyone with that scintillating pace and most of the rest of his game is perfectly adequate.
We can go forward confidently with Beauden, Mo'unga, Dmac, Goodhue, Reiko, Jordie and Dmac in our backline, and people like Will Jordan coming through.
It depends how you rate players. If you took prime Colin Meads and put him in the All Blacks now, he would look out of place. I still consider him as one of the greatest of all time though.
The athleticism may continue to evolve to an extent that a prime Carter would struggle more but those future generations would just be lucky they had improved conditioning and coaching.
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@chris-b said in Chiefs v Highlanders:
The game is ever evolving, so I fully expect to see a first five better than Danny boy, before I shuffle off the mortal coil. Hopefully, he will be a Crusader.
I quite like DMac. I'm not sure he'll ever be a great first five, but he's got some stuff that very few others have in terms of elusiveness with ball in hand and he's brave as hell. That being said, Beaudy starts and Mo'unga sits on the bench if I'm choosing.
You've all been spoiled by Danny. Beauden is already in our top five ever first fives and has plenty of chance to get better. I can't recall anyone with that scintillating pace and most of the rest of his game is perfectly adequate.
We can go forward confidently with Beauden, Mo'unga, Dmac, Goodhue, Reiko, Jordie and Dmac in our backline, and people like Will Jordan coming through.
It depends how you rate players. If you took prime Colin Meads and put him in the All Blacks now, he would look out of place. I still consider him as one of the greatest of all time though.
The athleticism may continue to evolve to an extent that a prime Carter would struggle more but those future generations would just be lucky they had improved conditioning and coaching.
@hydro11 Yeah - just everyone is getting better.
If you picked the "best ever" AB team, rather than the greatest, there wouldn't be anyone who didn't play in the past 20 years - simply on size alone.
Almost everyone would have played in the past 10 years.
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The game is ever evolving, so I fully expect to see a first five better than Danny boy, before I shuffle off the mortal coil. Hopefully, he will be a Crusader.
I quite like DMac. I'm not sure he'll ever be a great first five, but he's got some stuff that very few others have in terms of elusiveness with ball in hand and he's brave as hell. That being said, Beaudy starts and Mo'unga sits on the bench if I'm choosing.
You've all been spoiled by Danny. Beauden is already in our top five ever first fives and has plenty of chance to get better. I can't recall anyone with that scintillating pace and most of the rest of his game is perfectly adequate.
We can go forward confidently with Beauden, Mo'unga, Dmac, Goodhue, Reiko, Jordie and Dmac in our backline, and people like Will Jordan coming through.
@chris-b go to bed you're drunk.
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@mariner4life said in Chiefs v Highlanders:
@nepia fair bit of truth there, but then i think BB is an ordinary test match 10 (but a great rugby player if that makes sense). I also think JB is the most overrated player in NZ, probably the most overrated in a while.
My opinion is also influenced by the fact i find Dmac incredibly irritating, I'm just not a fan.
I just don't see a composed test player in there anywhere.
After watching JB against the Highlanders and the Rebels, I can understand why he is so highly rated.
@cgrant said in Chiefs v Highlanders:
@mariner4life said in Chiefs v Highlanders:
@nepia fair bit of truth there, but then i think BB is an ordinary test match 10 (but a great rugby player if that makes sense). I also think JB is the most overrated player in NZ, probably the most overrated in a while.
My opinion is also influenced by the fact i find Dmac incredibly irritating, I'm just not a fan.
I just don't see a composed test player in there anywhere.
After watching JB against the Highlanders and the Rebels, I can understand why he is so highly rated.
Agree. Jodie is class. Unsure what some posters are seeing in his game
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The game is ever evolving, so I fully expect to see a first five better than Danny boy, before I shuffle off the mortal coil. Hopefully, he will be a Crusader.
I quite like DMac. I'm not sure he'll ever be a great first five, but he's got some stuff that very few others have in terms of elusiveness with ball in hand and he's brave as hell. That being said, Beaudy starts and Mo'unga sits on the bench if I'm choosing.
You've all been spoiled by Danny. Beauden is already in our top five ever first fives and has plenty of chance to get better. I can't recall anyone with that scintillating pace and most of the rest of his game is perfectly adequate.
We can go forward confidently with Beauden, Mo'unga, Dmac, Goodhue, Reiko, Jordie and Dmac in our backline, and people like Will Jordan coming through.
@chris-b
I presume you are young. Because Beauden wouldn't be in my top five (yet). Of the players I've seen play
Carter
Fox
Wayne SmithThey're clearly better for me.
Actually I rate a fit Cruden higher, although I can see why others wouldn't. Our best ever run came with him, not Beauden.
BB has to beat a list including Earle Kirton, Mehrtens, Nicky Allen, Mac Herewini and Fred Allen. I don't think he's there yet.
The reason I leave Barrett out is that a great first five controls the game and makes the players outside him look better. Grant Fox was possibly the slowest man to ever play rugby for NZ but was a dream to play outside. Mehrtens couldn't tackle for shit, but he could give the men outside him so much more space.
Barrett can break a game wide open, but our backline when he plays is nowhere near as incisive as it was when Cruden had the reins. Beauden has an unbelievable turn of speed, but the Lions worked out that you don't give him an outside gap and he's ordinary at the rest of the job.
Great skill on the break looks fabulous, but it's a team game (which is why Walter Little isn't on my list either).
Barrett won't make my top list until we stop having games where our centres do nothing.
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BB had an excellent year in 2016. He was easily better than Cruden.
I don't think it's a coincidence that he played most of his tests in 2016 with Crotty in the 12 jersey.
Most tests in 2017, he played alongside SBW, who's quite average most of the time at 12 for the ABs.In June this year, I'd really like to see them bring Crotty back to 12, but I guess it won't happen unless SBW is injured ... (and Crotty obviously needs to be fit as well). And even then, they may opt to play Laumape at 12 instead.
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@chris-b
I presume you are young. Because Beauden wouldn't be in my top five (yet). Of the players I've seen play
Carter
Fox
Wayne SmithThey're clearly better for me.
Actually I rate a fit Cruden higher, although I can see why others wouldn't. Our best ever run came with him, not Beauden.
BB has to beat a list including Earle Kirton, Mehrtens, Nicky Allen, Mac Herewini and Fred Allen. I don't think he's there yet.
The reason I leave Barrett out is that a great first five controls the game and makes the players outside him look better. Grant Fox was possibly the slowest man to ever play rugby for NZ but was a dream to play outside. Mehrtens couldn't tackle for shit, but he could give the men outside him so much more space.
Barrett can break a game wide open, but our backline when he plays is nowhere near as incisive as it was when Cruden had the reins. Beauden has an unbelievable turn of speed, but the Lions worked out that you don't give him an outside gap and he's ordinary at the rest of the job.
Great skill on the break looks fabulous, but it's a team game (which is why Walter Little isn't on my list either).
Barrett won't make my top list until we stop having games where our centres do nothing.
@chester-draws Yes, very young, but just old enough to have seen Earle Kirton play.
Those guys you list might have been better than Beauden if they'd played in the professional era and benefited from modern training and conditioning, but they would not be close to playing as All Blacks today. Most of them would be too small for a start.
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@chester-draws Yes, very young, but just old enough to have seen Earle Kirton play.
Those guys you list might have been better than Beauden if they'd played in the professional era and benefited from modern training and conditioning, but they would not be close to playing as All Blacks today. Most of them would be too small for a start.
@chris-b
By that token Bradman would be a decent club player.
Mark Spitz would not be guaranteed to win the women's final (seriously, they are now half a second off him at his peak). He'd not qualify for the men's.
You simply cannot measure like that. DMac would be an all-time great based on that criteria.
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@chris-b
By that token Bradman would be a decent club player.
Mark Spitz would not be guaranteed to win the women's final (seriously, they are now half a second off him at his peak). He'd not qualify for the men's.
You simply cannot measure like that. DMac would be an all-time great based on that criteria.
@chester-draws They are standing on the shoulders of giants.
It is reality though. We are watching the "best" sportsmen who have ever lived - and in 50 years there will doubtless be a better crop.
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@chris-b
By that token Bradman would be a decent club player.
Mark Spitz would not be guaranteed to win the women's final (seriously, they are now half a second off him at his peak). He'd not qualify for the men's.
You simply cannot measure like that. DMac would be an all-time great based on that criteria.
@chester-draws said in Chiefs v Highlanders:
@chris-b
By that token Bradman would be a decent club player.
Mark Spitz would not be guaranteed to win the women's final (seriously, they are now half a second off him at his peak). He'd not qualify for the men's.
You simply cannot measure like that. DMac would be an all-time great based on that criteria.
Apples and Oranges. Cricket is a non contact sport. Ridiculous comparison. Even boxing is questionable.
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BB had an excellent year in 2016. He was easily better than Cruden.
I don't think it's a coincidence that he played most of his tests in 2016 with Crotty in the 12 jersey.
Most tests in 2017, he played alongside SBW, who's quite average most of the time at 12 for the ABs.In June this year, I'd really like to see them bring Crotty back to 12, but I guess it won't happen unless SBW is injured ... (and Crotty obviously needs to be fit as well). And even then, they may opt to play Laumape at 12 instead.
@stargazer said in Chiefs v Highlanders:
BB had an excellent year in 2016. He was easily better than Cruden.
I don't think it's a coincidence that he played most of his tests in 2016 with Crotty in the 12 jersey.
Most tests in 2017, he played alongside SBW, who's quite average most of the time at 12 for the ABs.In June this year, I'd really like to see them bring Crotty back to 12, but I guess it won't happen unless SBW is injured ... (and Crotty obviously needs to be fit as well). And even then, they may opt to play Laumape at 12 instead.
I don't think anyone has ever disputed that - but in the previous years Cruden was a better 10 than Beaudan - which I think is partly Chester's point.
I don't think a 10s rating should be based on who plays at 12. Last year BB wasn't as good as the year before because he personally wasn't playing as well.
Re: rating players, we don't rate players on how they'd stack up in the modern game, that's a silly way to do it, you have to rate them on how good they were in their era. Meads wouldn't be a lock today but he was the best lock of his era - his greatness doesn't diminish because of that. We're never going to see a head to head of these players so lets not pretend they all have to be judged on the most current modern standards.
