Blues vs Waratahs
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@NTA said in Blues vs Waratahs:
@sparky said in Blues vs Waratahs:
Their young players must be learning so much from playing with perhaps the greatest ever 12 to play the game.
Tim Horan retired years ago
It's a shame we never got to watch Nonu trample all over Horan.
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@No-Quarter said in Blues vs Waratahs:
@NTA said in Blues vs Waratahs:
@sparky said in Blues vs Waratahs:
Their young players must be learning so much from playing with perhaps the greatest ever 12 to play the game.
Tim Horan retired years ago
It's a shame we never got to watch Nonu trample all over Horan.
Or trip over himself as Horan skinned him inside and then outside.
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@SammyC said in Blues vs Waratahs:
Best game I’ve seen Akira play I reckon.. he’s becoming the big bully that the all blacks could use in their loose trio.
Hope the blues waste the chiefs next weekend.
Hmmm. He was better in his last game - TBF that was probably one of his quieter matches (while still being influential).
@Machpants said in Blues vs Waratahs:
@SammyC then right at the end he had to slap some body for no reason after they'd got the penalty and big up to the crowd. He's like itoje. Not sure what the and coaches will think of that cos they notice
They put up with Franks' thuggishness so not sure that would hinder Akira.
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I'm not saying it is a problem for ABs, but it is noticeable. And it wasn't thuggishness - nasty stuff in play aka mongrel that has gone to far like Franks/Moody or even dumb shit like Nonu/SBW tackles can be - but childish pushing after the penalty has been given, then prancing around. Just like Itoje. If he's pushed the guy whilst the ball was in play, I don't care. But after the whistle, when you've won? Just point at the scoreboard, just seemed lame. I had spent the game talking with the boys and saying he had to be in RWC squad as an unknown impact player - then he acts the prat after it was over.
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@Nepia said in Blues vs Waratahs:
@SammyC said in Blues vs Waratahs:
Best game I’ve seen Akira play I reckon.. he’s becoming the big bully that the all blacks could use in their loose trio.
Hope the blues waste the chiefs next weekend.
Hmmm. He was better in his last game - TBF that was probably one of his quieter matches (while still being influential).
@Machpants said in Blues vs Waratahs:
@SammyC then right at the end he had to slap some body for no reason after they'd got the penalty and big up to the crowd. He's like itoje. Not sure what the and coaches will think of that cos they notice
They put up with Franks' thuggishness so not sure that would hinder Akira.
I thought he was considerably better at the breakdown and on defense than last week.
Anyway, regardless he’s easily the best 8 in NZ at the moment.
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@SammyC said in Blues vs Waratahs:
Anyway, regardless he’s easily the best 8 in NZ at the moment.
Watching 2011 again; Read was a monster. Wide, fast ball carrying, hard hitting, getting up for kickoffs - just a dominant player.
Hoepfully he can recover some of that form post-back injury. We didn't see it last year , and it's important that he finds form and leads well.
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Which is partly my point. Tim Horan was probably the most consistent Back in World Rugby in the 1990s, but he was done with international Rugby and Super Rugby by the age 30. He played a couple of seasons after that for Saracens when they were a mid -able side.
The longevity of Ma'a Nonu career as well as his haul of international silverware set him from all other midfielders in the modern game.
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@sparky said in Blues vs Waratahs:
Which is partly my point. Tim Horan was probably the most consistent Back in World Rugby in the 1990s, but he was done with international Rugby and Super Rugby by the age 30. He played a couple of seasons after that for Saracens when they were a mid -able side.
The longevity of Ma'a Nonu career as well as his haul of international silverware set him from all other midfielders in the modern game.
Nonu has had the benefit of modern training his entire career, so it is a difficult comparison to make if you're talking longevity. The amateur era didn't have nearly the level of conditioning and support players get now. It can't be denied that he's been part of - and contributed significantly to - one of the most dominant sides ever.
I'd point out Horan debuted in 1989 (age 19), won 2 RWCs 8 years apart, and suffered a pretty shocking knee injury in 94 which put a big hold on his career. Though he still won a RWC after that point, he was probably never the same as his sprightly youth. I will always remember that semifinal game against the Boks in 99 where he played a MOTM performance from his sickbed.
It is interesting to compare their Test careers because there are a lot of similarities there - barring Nonu being 15kg heavier at about the same height:
Horan - debuted 19, played 80 Tests (140 points), 2 x RWC (1991; Player of the tournament 1999), last test 2000 (12 seasons). Played about half his career in amateur rules.
Nonu - debuted 21, played 104* Tests (160 points), 2 x RWC (2011; 2015), last test to date 2015 (13 seasons).I'd take either of them, in their pomp, at 12 over SBW.
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Ok, lets compare who held the Bledisloe Cup in their international careers.
Australia held the Bledisloe Cup for less than half of Horan's career. Australia won that trophy in 1992, 1994, 1998, 1999 and 2000. But New Zealand held the Bledisloe in 1990, 1991, 1993, 1995, 1996 and 1997.
In Maa Nonu international tenure the All Blacks won or retained the Bledisloe in 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, and 2015. Losing it 0% of the time. Nonu only lost to Australia three times in the 24 tests he played against the Wallabies.
Nonu's record against Australia in World Cups wasn't bad either:
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@sparky said in Blues vs Waratahs:
Ok, lets compare who held the Bledisloe Cup in their international careers.
I'm not sure you can compare team records for individual perforamnces. Horan was amazingballs, no matter how you cut it. So was Ma'a... of the two I'd take Ma'a, but I'm a one eyed kiwi.
Horan really was good though, and deserves the plaudits he gets
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@nzzp said in Blues vs Waratahs:
@sparky said in Blues vs Waratahs:
Ok, lets compare who held the Bledisloe Cup in their international careers.
I'm not sure you can compare team records for individual perforamnces. Horan was amazingballs, no matter how you cut it. So was Ma'a... of the two I'd take Ma'a, but I'm a one eyed kiwi.
Horan really was good though, and deserves the plaudits he gets
Up until Ma'a, I'd have said Horan was the best 12 I'd ever seen.
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@sparky said in Blues vs Waratahs:
Ok, lets compare who held the Bledisloe Cup in their international careers.
Oh OK then, try this: Nonu was behind a dominant forward pack most of his career, which makes Horan the better player because the Australian didn't get an arm chair ride.
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@Nepia said in Blues vs Waratahs:
@SammyC said in Blues vs Waratahs:
Best game I’ve seen Akira play I reckon.. he’s becoming the big bully that the all blacks could use in their loose trio.
Hope the blues waste the chiefs next weekend.
Hmmm. He was better in his last game - TBF that was probably one of his quieter matches (while still being influential).
@Machpants said in Blues vs Waratahs:
@SammyC then right at the end he had to slap some body for no reason after they'd got the penalty and big up to the crowd. He's like itoje. Not sure what the and coaches will think of that cos they notice
They put up with Franks' thuggishness so not sure that would hinder Akira.
He’s a good Christian is Owen
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@sparky said in Blues vs Waratahs:
Ok, lets compare who held the Bledisloe Cup in their international careers.
Australia held the Bledisloe Cup for less than half of Horan's career. Australia won that trophy in 1992, 1994, 1998, 1999 and 2000. But New Zealand held the Bledisloe in 1990, 1991, 1993, 1995, 1996 and 1997.
In Maa Nonu international tenure the All Blacks won or retained the Bledisloe in 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, and 2015. Losing it 0% of the time. Nonu only lost to Australia three times in the 24 tests he played against the Wallabies.
Nonu's record against Australia in World Cups wasn't bad either:
All that research and it means absolutely nothing when comparing two players.
Gotta love the Fern.
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Not buying that 100% either. Australian pack was solid throughout the Dwyer and MacQueen eras. Horan was excellent, but supported by hard work of John Eales, Tim Gavin, Tony Daly, Phil Kearns, Ewan McKenzie, Willie Ofahengaue and co.
Subjective, I know. Nonu's best 12 I've seen. Horan the next best. Daylight after that to any else. Warrick Taylor or Scott Gibbs or Will Greenwood perhaps? Bert Cooke was apparently one heck of a player but I doubt there is anyone alive who can compare him with the modern 12s.
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@sparky and cooke at less than 65kg would struggle in most 1st 15 mid-fields these days...
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@taniwharugby Indeed. Warwick Taylor was 79 kg when he was second-five eights for the 1987 World Cup winning team, lighter than a lot of 1st XV midfielders now.
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@sparky said in Blues vs Waratahs:
Subjective, I know. Nonu's best 12 I've seen. Horan the next best. Daylight after that to any else. Warrick Taylor or Scott Gibbs or Will Greenwood perhaps?
No love for Walter Little?
Tough crowd.
P.S.
@sparky said in Blues vs Waratahs:
Not buying that 100% either
Way to miss the fucking point
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@sparky said in Blues vs Waratahs:
Not buying that 100% either. Australian pack was solid throughout the Dwyer and MacQueen eras. Horan was excellent, but supported by hard work of John Eales, Tim Gavin, Tony Daly, Phil Kearns, Ewan McKenzie, Willie Ofahengaue and co.
Subjective, I know. Nonu's best 12 I've seen. Horan the next best. Daylight after that to any else. Warrick Taylor or Scott Gibbs or Will Greenwood perhaps? Bert Cooke was apparently one heck of a player but I doubt there is anyone alive who can compare him with the modern 12s.
Did you ever watch Charlie Ngatai????
