RWC Final: England v Springboks
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@SidBarret
You can definitely add in Cheslin Kolbe to the call-outs.
Apart from the magic of the try at the end, what stood out for me was his defence - outrageously good. @NTA calls it out higher up in this thread. He took down guys much bigger than him with ease and once or twice was instrumental in nullifying England overlaps.And I thought Duane was a good choice for MOTM. That guy is just a rock for us.
But Pollard could easily have been a contender too... and Faf.@Billy-Webb Yeah, all the guys had good games, and in terms of MOTM accolades PSDT (and to lesser extent Mostert) could have been nominations based on their defensive shifts.
I chose to focus on those three in particular because I they were maligned (even if only by myself in the case of Malherbe) in the build up and did fantastically well to exceed all expectations when it really counted.
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@SidBarret Fantastic post.
For me, it was at the 60 minute mark where I truly believed we had this. The score was only 18-12 but it just felt like England had run out of answers. The Mapimipi try a bit later sealed it. Too much for England to do from there, and the Boks sensed it and grew yet another arm and leg.
It was our day. Bounce of the ball and all that.
Even Willie saved his best for this game
@Billy-Webb @SidBarret good morning World Champions. You guys pretty much summed it up.
I felt comfortable after Pollard took his own early up and under. Then I knew we were there to play.
But I thought we won it with the two penalties either side of half time.
The first came from Am’s neat break. I was sure the boks would realize they could run at England if they needed to, after that.
And then, 4 minutes after half time Rassie made an inspired double prop substitution searching for the penalty. That penalty took as 2 scores clear and the game was, for all intents and purposes, won.
I’m surprised more people haven’t highlighted the tactical significance of that substitution. That was genius.
And going back to Am, he was magnificent. We now take his ironclad defence for granted, but he added an attacking edge on Saturday.
Lastly, strange to think that Steyn beat a father and son in order to collect his two RWC winner’s medals.
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Congratulations Bokke, great tournament. Really enjoyed it despite the ABs failing to turn up last week. Better team won the final, really entertaining game.
This modern trend of super mobile ball running props makes it easy to forget how absolutely important scrums are. You are screwed in a tight game if your scrum gets hammered: any dropped ball = you get ball back or a penalty, any penalty within 50m = chance for points. Same principle for the trend of selecting smaller locks who are brilliant in the loose (Itoje @ 1.95m) and two 7s - you are giving up second row power, and it matters.
This is why I love rugby, so many different ways to win and tactical ways to outmatch the other team. Kolbe is one of the smallest players in the World Cup and one of the best. It's a game for all shapes and sizes.
My favourite moment was Am recovering Mapimipi's kick then throwing a no-look pass back to him, then not even looking at him dot it down. Ice cold.
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Congratulations Bokke, great tournament. Really enjoyed it despite the ABs failing to turn up last week. Better team won the final, really entertaining game.
This modern trend of super mobile ball running props makes it easy to forget how absolutely important scrums are. You are screwed in a tight game if your scrum gets hammered: any dropped ball = you get ball back or a penalty, any penalty within 50m = chance for points. Same principle for the trend of selecting smaller locks who are brilliant in the loose (Itoje @ 1.95m) and two 7s - you are giving up second row power, and it matters.
This is why I love rugby, so many different ways to win and tactical ways to outmatch the other team. Kolbe is one of the smallest players in the World Cup and one of the best. It's a game for all shapes and sizes.
My favourite moment was Am recovering Mapimipi's kick then throwing a no-look pass back to him, then not even looking at him dot it down. Ice cold.
@TeWaio said in RWC Final: England v Springboks:
Congratulations Bokke, great tournament. Really enjoyed it despite the ABs failing to turn up last week. Better team won the final, really entertaining game.
This modern trend of this trend of super mobile ball running props makes it easy to forget how absolutely important scrums are. You are screwed in a tight game if your scrum gets hammered: any dropped ball = youget ball back or a penalty, any penalty within 50m = chance for points. Same principle for the trend of selecting smaller locks who are brilliant in the loose (Itoje @ 1.95m) and two 7s - you are giving up second row power and it matters.
This is why I love rugby, so many different ways to win and tactical ways to outmatch the other team. Kolbe is one of the smallest players in the World Cup and one of the best. It's a game for all shapes and sizes.
My favourite moment was Am recovering Mapimipi's kick then throwing a no-look pass back to him, then not even looking at him dot it down. Ice cold.
And getting denied on the hi-5
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@TeWaio said in RWC Final: England v Springboks:
Congratulations Bokke, great tournament. Really enjoyed it despite the ABs failing to turn up last week. Better team won the final, really entertaining game.
This modern trend of this trend of super mobile ball running props makes it easy to forget how absolutely important scrums are. You are screwed in a tight game if your scrum gets hammered: any dropped ball = youget ball back or a penalty, any penalty within 50m = chance for points. Same principle for the trend of selecting smaller locks who are brilliant in the loose (Itoje @ 1.95m) and two 7s - you are giving up second row power and it matters.
This is why I love rugby, so many different ways to win and tactical ways to outmatch the other team. Kolbe is one of the smallest players in the World Cup and one of the best. It's a game for all shapes and sizes.
My favourite moment was Am recovering Mapimipi's kick then throwing a no-look pass back to him, then not even looking at him dot it down. Ice cold.
And getting denied on the hi-5
@MiketheSnow True, tough crowd. I'd have high-fived the poor bloke.
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Congratulations Bokke, great tournament. Really enjoyed it despite the ABs failing to turn up last week. Better team won the final, really entertaining game.
This modern trend of super mobile ball running props makes it easy to forget how absolutely important scrums are. You are screwed in a tight game if your scrum gets hammered: any dropped ball = you get ball back or a penalty, any penalty within 50m = chance for points. Same principle for the trend of selecting smaller locks who are brilliant in the loose (Itoje @ 1.95m) and two 7s - you are giving up second row power, and it matters.
This is why I love rugby, so many different ways to win and tactical ways to outmatch the other team. Kolbe is one of the smallest players in the World Cup and one of the best. It's a game for all shapes and sizes.
My favourite moment was Am recovering Mapimipi's kick then throwing a no-look pass back to him, then not even looking at him dot it down. Ice cold.
@TeWaio said in RWC Final: England v Springboks:
This modern trend of this trend of super mobile ball running props makes it easy to forget how absolutely important scrums are. You are screwed in a tight game if your scrum gets hammered: any dropped ball = youget ball back or a penalty, any penalty within 50m = chance for points. Same principle for the trend of selecting smaller locks who are brilliant in the loose (Itoje @ 1.95m) and two 7s - you are giving up second row power and it matters.
I get your point and respect it, but you also need to realise how good this tight five (ten, or is that eleven if you count PSDT) of South Africa is.
Beast might lack the subtly of Sinckler or the ball carrying of Vunipolu the fatter, but he is busy around the park clearing out and tackling hard. Marx, Kitshoff and (especially) Snyman are super slick ball in hand. Mostert is a lock sized human being (don't be fooled by how he looks next to his locking partners) with an engine like nobody's business.
Tribute to these guys for working their game to get it where it is. Beast started out as a blindside, yet today he is capable of winning a world cup final off the back of his scrummaging. Kitshoff started out as bit of pot plant prop, but his ball handling and carrying is truly world class.
One of the things in the build up that annoyed me was how often the British scribes pulled out the old cliches - South Africa is big/slow, will tire, lack skills, etc. It just seemed lazy and short sighted to base all the analysis on what was admittedly a poor performance against Wales.
***This post is not meant to deify the springbok team. They did/do have weaknesses - Marx and Mbonambi are prone to yips in the line-out. Beast and Etsebeth, despite the power and speed, are not great ball carriers. Du Toit's running game seems to have disappeared just as his defensive game has become the best in the world, etc etc.
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@TeWaio said in RWC Final: England v Springboks:
This modern trend of this trend of super mobile ball running props makes it easy to forget how absolutely important scrums are. You are screwed in a tight game if your scrum gets hammered: any dropped ball = youget ball back or a penalty, any penalty within 50m = chance for points. Same principle for the trend of selecting smaller locks who are brilliant in the loose (Itoje @ 1.95m) and two 7s - you are giving up second row power and it matters.
I get your point and respect it, but you also need to realise how good this tight five (ten, or is that eleven if you count PSDT) of South Africa is.
Beast might lack the subtly of Sinckler or the ball carrying of Vunipolu the fatter, but he is busy around the park clearing out and tackling hard. Marx, Kitshoff and (especially) Snyman are super slick ball in hand. Mostert is a lock sized human being (don't be fooled by how he looks next to his locking partners) with an engine like nobody's business.
Tribute to these guys for working their game to get it where it is. Beast started out as a blindside, yet today he is capable of winning a world cup final off the back of his scrummaging. Kitshoff started out as bit of pot plant prop, but his ball handling and carrying is truly world class.
One of the things in the build up that annoyed me was how often the British scribes pulled out the old cliches - South Africa is big/slow, will tire, lack skills, etc. It just seemed lazy and short sighted to base all the analysis on what was admittedly a poor performance against Wales.
***This post is not meant to deify the springbok team. They did/do have weaknesses - Marx and Mbonambi are prone to yips in the line-out. Beast and Etsebeth, despite the power and speed, are not great ball carriers. Du Toit's running game seems to have disappeared just as his defensive game has become the best in the world, etc etc.
@SidBarret said in RWC Final: England v Springboks:
@TeWaio said in RWC Final: England v Springboks:
This modern trend of this trend of super mobile ball running props makes it easy to forget how absolutely important scrums are. You are screwed in a tight game if your scrum gets hammered: any dropped ball = youget ball back or a penalty, any penalty within 50m = chance for points. Same principle for the trend of selecting smaller locks who are brilliant in the loose (Itoje @ 1.95m) and two 7s - you are giving up second row power and it matters.
One of the things in the build up that annoyed me was how often the British scribes pulled out the old cliches - South Africa is big/slow, will tire, lack skills, etc. It just seemed lazy and short sighted to base all the analysis on what was admittedly a poor performance against Wales.
Tired cliches and overrating their team/underrating the opponent based on one game is the foundation of a lot of rugby journalism.
If there is a silver lining to our loss it might be giving them a false sense of their superiority that hurt their performance. If you were to read a lot of analysis prior, they were better man for man and only had to turn up.
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@Billy-Webb @SidBarret good morning World Champions. You guys pretty much summed it up.
I felt comfortable after Pollard took his own early up and under. Then I knew we were there to play.
But I thought we won it with the two penalties either side of half time.
The first came from Am’s neat break. I was sure the boks would realize they could run at England if they needed to, after that.
And then, 4 minutes after half time Rassie made an inspired double prop substitution searching for the penalty. That penalty took as 2 scores clear and the game was, for all intents and purposes, won.
I’m surprised more people haven’t highlighted the tactical significance of that substitution. That was genius.
And going back to Am, he was magnificent. We now take his ironclad defence for granted, but he added an attacking edge on Saturday.
Lastly, strange to think that Steyn beat a father and son in order to collect his two RWC winner’s medals.
@Smuts said in RWC Final: England v Springboks:
And then, 4 minutes after half time Rassie made an inspired double prop substitution searching for the penalty. That penalty took as 2 scores clear and the game was, for all intents and purposes, won.
I’m surprised more people haven’t highlighted the tactical significance of that substitution. That was genius.
Thanks mate
I am kinda whispering this - but had we lost I think that substitution would have been questioned a lot more.
Beast and Malherbe were well on top and leaving them another 10 minutes (they just had a fifteen minute sitdown) seemed to be more sensible to leave even fresher legs for the last ten minutes of the game.
That first scrum is also questioned by some on the basis that the english loosehead moved forward (while to my eyes at least their tighthead buckled in under presssure).
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@Smuts said in RWC Final: England v Springboks:
And then, 4 minutes after half time Rassie made an inspired double prop substitution searching for the penalty. That penalty took as 2 scores clear and the game was, for all intents and purposes, won.
I’m surprised more people haven’t highlighted the tactical significance of that substitution. That was genius.
Thanks mate
I am kinda whispering this - but had we lost I think that substitution would have been questioned a lot more.
Beast and Malherbe were well on top and leaving them another 10 minutes (they just had a fifteen minute sitdown) seemed to be more sensible to leave even fresher legs for the last ten minutes of the game.
That first scrum is also questioned by some on the basis that the english loosehead moved forward (while to my eyes at least their tighthead buckled in under presssure).
@SidBarret Yeah somehow after that scrum, we lost dominance. No doubt we'll get a thorough analysis of the scrum battle in due course.
My point is specifically that Rassie made those substitutions to milk that penalty. And without the benefit of hindsight, at that stage, you would have backed Kitshoff and Koch to dial the pressure up rather than how it played out. I liked it at the time and still do, even though the Poms managed to craft an edge at the scrum afterward.
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Brian Moore would have made a difference on Saturday
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And he is saying the right things - both to us South African supporters and the Englishmen at home. Good for him. I get the argument that "that under pressure the true you comes out" etc, but fuck it. As a springbok fan I don't need him to kneel down and kiss the ring.
He might act like a cock, but if it doesn't actually affect the game I am good fine with it. Don't want him to celebrate, don't give him a reason to.
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So I'm finally ready to post some thoughts on this game.
To start, my commiserations to the England guys on TSF. Right now it won't feel fantastic, but you can be proud of your team's performance over the course of this RWC. You played some excellent rugby and were deserved finalists.
But as opposed to SA's semi against Wales where the Boks played not to lose, in the final England ran into a Bok team that actually played to win. In addition to the usual forward grunt, box kicks and swarming defence, the Boks decided to also run at the English. This, together with early good field position, the loss of Sinckler, the Bok scrum dominance and then the first 3 points, I think put the English on the back foot. And they never really recovered.
It was without a doubt the best game the Boks played the whole tournament. Hard, uncompromising, disciplined and smart. I couldn't be more proud of them. This feels at least as good as 1995. Maybe even better because there were no Luyt-like dickhead statements afterwards from SA officials - at least none that I have seen
@Billy-Webb said in RWC Final: England v Springboks:
So I'm finally ready to post some thoughts on this game.
To start, my commiserations to the England guys on TSF. Right now it won't feel fantastic, but you can be proud of your team's performance over the course of this RWC. You played some excellent rugby and were deserved finalists.
But as opposed to SA's semi against Wales where the Boks played not to lose, in the final England ran into a Bok team that actually played to win. In addition to the usual forward grunt, box kicks and swarming defence, the Boks decided to also run at the English. This, together with early good field position, the loss of Sinckler, the Bok scrum dominance and then the first 3 points, I think put the English on the back foot. And they never really recovered.
It was without a doubt the best game the Boks played the whole tournament. Hard, uncompromising, disciplined and smart. I couldn't be more proud of them. This feels at least as good as 1995. Maybe even better because there were no Luyt-like dickhead statements afterwards from SA officials - at least none that I have seen
Not on their watch, so to speak...
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Is Gavin Rich respected or the South African Stephen Jones?
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Is Gavin Rich respected or the South African Stephen Jones?
@jegga said in RWC Final: England v Springboks:
Is Gavin Rich respected
I just read the article and the answer to your question is, no, not by me.
Comments like these:
"The Boks, with that magnificent pack, never looked like being outplayed."and yet they lost a match...(he is referring to the whole tournament there)
but apparently due to this v the ABs:
"it was really only some dubious refereeing"Twat.
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@jegga said in RWC Final: England v Springboks:
Is Gavin Rich respected
I just read the article and the answer to your question is, no, not by me.
Comments like these:
"The Boks, with that magnificent pack, never looked like being outplayed."and yet they lost a match...(he is referring to the whole tournament there)
but apparently due to this v the ABs:
"it was really only some dubious refereeing"Twat.
@Snowy said in RWC Final: England v Springboks:
@jegga said in RWC Final: England v Springboks:
Is Gavin Rich respected
I just read the article and the answer to your question is, no, not by me.
Comments like these:
"The Boks, with that magnificent pack, never looked like being outplayed."and yet they lost a match...(he is referring to the whole tournament there)
but apparently due to this v the ABs:
"it was really only some dubious refereeing"Twat.
Yeah he struck me as being a bit of a cock with some of the thrashwanking about the pool game . Bizarrely he actually admitted the boks weren’t the best team in 2007 and 1995 .
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I don't mind most of that article - the headline is a bit misleading. The bit that seems weird to me is this bit:
"The All Blacks knew that too, and perhaps that set them on the path to their calamitous semifinal no-show against England. Their coach Steve Hansen had said during the week that the All Blacks' main threat was the Boks. It was the line being peddled by the Kiwi media. It was the wrong thing to say and the wrong thing to think."
The only thing I heard Hansen saying was you've got to play well this week and if you play well enough to win you earn the right to play the following week. And if you don't you go home. Looking ahead to the Boks being the biggest threat would have been completely the opposite to anything I heard him saying (and I'm sure would have been widely reported in NZ media). I daresay there were some media people who thought the Boks would be the biggest threat. There were a lot more who thought we'd meet them in the final if we got there. Which would've been true.
