Wales v All Blacks 30th Oct NH Tour
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Would be a big call to jump Christie over TJ.
I can't really see it, because if things are turning to custard under Weber - you'd want to bring on TJ's experience, rather than a rookie who's not as good as your starter.
Even though form today might suggest some logic.
@chris-b said in Wales v All Blacks 30th Oct NH Tour:
Would be a big call to jump Christie over TJ.
it would indeed, but TJ seems to have fallen a long, long way below what is needed at this level, and not sure his experience and 'cool head' you'd normally associate with an experienced bench player is comforting
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@chris-b said in Wales v All Blacks 30th Oct NH Tour:
Would be a big call to jump Christie over TJ.
it would indeed, but TJ seems to have fallen a long, long way below what is needed at this level, and not sure his experience and 'cool head' you'd normally associate with an experienced bench player is comforting
@taniwharugby said in Wales v All Blacks 30th Oct NH Tour:
@chris-b said in Wales v All Blacks 30th Oct NH Tour:
Would be a big call to jump Christie over TJ.
it would indeed, but TJ seems to have fallen a long, long way below what is needed at this level, and not sure his experience and 'cool head' you'd normally associate with an experienced bench player is comforting
I'm not really seeing this experience, his decision-making did not seem that superior to the others as far as I can tell. Still supports well though.
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@chris-b said in Wales v All Blacks 30th Oct NH Tour:
Would be a big call to jump Christie over TJ.
I can't really see it, because if things are turning to custard under Weber - you'd want to bring on TJ's experience, rather than a rookie who's not as good as your starter.
Even though form today might suggest some logic.
Interesting though that Foster said a handful of places were “up for grabs”. Judging by the selection, if they were giving certain players a chance I would guess halfback, first-five, second five and wing. Possibly the loose forward mix but we know Ardie and Akira will start so it’s either Papalii, Blackadder, Jacobsen or Sotutu to join them. Can’t see how this game offered much to sort that out except Jacobsen confirming his class.
@crucial said in Wales v All Blacks 30th Oct NH Tour:
@chris-b said in Wales v All Blacks 30th Oct NH Tour:
Would be a big call to jump Christie over TJ.
I can't really see it, because if things are turning to custard under Weber - you'd want to bring on TJ's experience, rather than a rookie who's not as good as your starter.
Even though form today might suggest some logic.
Interesting though that Foster said a handful of places were “up for grabs”. Judging by the selection, if they were giving certain players a chance I would guess halfback, first-five, second five and wing. Possibly the loose forward mix but we know Ardie and Akira will start so it’s either Papalii, Blackadder, Jacobsen or Sotutu to join them. Can’t see how this game offered much to sort that out except Jacobsen confirming his class.
13? I'm still not sure how they rank 13. Possibly because it depends on where they rank ALB at 12.
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@crucial said in Wales v All Blacks 30th Oct NH Tour:
@chris-b said in Wales v All Blacks 30th Oct NH Tour:
Would be a big call to jump Christie over TJ.
I can't really see it, because if things are turning to custard under Weber - you'd want to bring on TJ's experience, rather than a rookie who's not as good as your starter.
Even though form today might suggest some logic.
Interesting though that Foster said a handful of places were “up for grabs”. Judging by the selection, if they were giving certain players a chance I would guess halfback, first-five, second five and wing. Possibly the loose forward mix but we know Ardie and Akira will start so it’s either Papalii, Blackadder, Jacobsen or Sotutu to join them. Can’t see how this game offered much to sort that out except Jacobsen confirming his class.
Or Sam Cane among the loosies. Which wouldn't surprise me, but I don't really like him and Ardie in the same trio. To be honest, we've got lots of big 7s/small 6/8s in our loose forward mix - so I'd like to see Akira and Jacobsen continue to make strides.
Starting tighthead is another question-mark. I think it will still be Laulala for Wales.
I think we'll see lots of things changed up vs Wales. Then a team not dissimilar to this morning's play Italy.
Then probably the first choice selections vs France and Ireland (which will mainly be the Wales team, but not all). Might still be a bit of rotation where things are up for grabs.
@chris-b said in Wales v All Blacks 30th Oct NH Tour:
Or Sam Cane among the loosies. Which wouldn't surprise me, but I don't really like him and Ardie in the same trio. To be honest, we've got lots of big 7s/small 6/8s in our loose forward mix - so I'd like to see Akira and Jacobsen continue to make strides.
I don't follow given (in whatever order):
6 Blackadder Frizzo Ioane Jacobson
7 Cane Savea Paps Blackadder
8 Jacobson Sotututhe only one who is smallish would be Ardie Savea playing at 6 or 8 I would have thought?
It's a really interesting battle for me as I am not sure if any of the loose forwards have a clear frontrunner, maybe Cane at 7 but he has been out for so long...
If Jacobson and Akira Ioane were both starting I wonder if 6 and 8 suit them better than 8 and 6... -
@chris-b said in Wales v All Blacks 30th Oct NH Tour:
Or Sam Cane among the loosies. Which wouldn't surprise me, but I don't really like him and Ardie in the same trio. To be honest, we've got lots of big 7s/small 6/8s in our loose forward mix - so I'd like to see Akira and Jacobsen continue to make strides.
I don't follow given (in whatever order):
6 Blackadder Frizzo Ioane Jacobson
7 Cane Savea Paps Blackadder
8 Jacobson Sotututhe only one who is smallish would be Ardie Savea playing at 6 or 8 I would have thought?
It's a really interesting battle for me as I am not sure if any of the loose forwards have a clear frontrunner, maybe Cane at 7 but he has been out for so long...
If Jacobson and Akira Ioane were both starting I wonder if 6 and 8 suit them better than 8 and 6...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pieter-Steph_du_Toit
The Jaapies already outmuscled us - and they've got Big Pieter-Steph still to come.
We don't have a hulking big bugger like that - except maybe Stupid Shannon.
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Would be a big call to jump Christie over TJ.
I can't really see it, because if things are turning to custard under Weber - you'd want to bring on TJ's experience, rather than a rookie who's not as good as your starter.
Even though form today might suggest some logic.
@chris-b said in Wales v All Blacks 30th Oct NH Tour:
Would be a big call to jump Christie over TJ.
I can't really see it, because if things are turning to custard under Weber - you'd want to bring on TJ's experience, rather than a rookie who's not as good as your starter.
Even though form today might suggest some logic.
Can't see how it would be a big call at all. Bring on an absolute liability just because he was good 3 years ago and therefore has experience? Versing bringing on a guy who's probably as good as Weber in black - and is much much better than TJP.
It's pretty typical, especially in blow outs, for the reserve halfback to come on and make the starter look like a xhunp. We got the complete opposite yesterday, and yet you say the starter isn't even very good...
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@chris-b said in Wales v All Blacks 30th Oct NH Tour:
Would be a big call to jump Christie over TJ.
I can't really see it, because if things are turning to custard under Weber - you'd want to bring on TJ's experience, rather than a rookie who's not as good as your starter.
Even though form today might suggest some logic.
Can't see how it would be a big call at all. Bring on an absolute liability just because he was good 3 years ago and therefore has experience? Versing bringing on a guy who's probably as good as Weber in black - and is much much better than TJP.
It's pretty typical, especially in blow outs, for the reserve halfback to come on and make the starter look like a xhunp. We got the complete opposite yesterday, and yet you say the starter isn't even very good...
@bones You reckon TJ is done then? Jimmy Cowan in 2011?
My memory is that people weren't too thrilled with Finlay's game off the bench vs Argentina (I think?). Whichever Rugby Championship game he played - and even though he is one of my Mako boys - I thought he looked like a placeholder and most people seemed to be agreeing.
For us, speculating on the interweb, we can drop people at will and if we fuck it up, expect the droppee will come back unaffected by our lack of confidence. I'm not sure that works in the real world.
I reckon they'll give TJ the bench for Wales.
Christie can have another chance to impress vs Italy.
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@bones You reckon TJ is done then? Jimmy Cowan in 2011?
My memory is that people weren't too thrilled with Finlay's game off the bench vs Argentina (I think?). Whichever Rugby Championship game he played - and even though he is one of my Mako boys - I thought he looked like a placeholder and most people seemed to be agreeing.
For us, speculating on the interweb, we can drop people at will and if we fuck it up, expect the droppee will come back unaffected by our lack of confidence. I'm not sure that works in the real world.
I reckon they'll give TJ the bench for Wales.
Christie can have another chance to impress vs Italy.
@chris-b oh I'm far from thrilled that FC is next best, but TJP is so far off the mark it's not funny. To come on in an annihilation and be that much worse than FC really says something for me.
Still, wouldn't be at all surprised if he's on the beach.
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@act-crusader said in Wales v All Blacks 30th Oct NH Tour:
J. Barrett, Reece, R. Ioane
Havili, ALB
Weber, Mo’ungaBench: Perenara, B. Barrett, W. Jordan
Am not sure I believe you ... none of the bolded have Canterbury or Crusaders links I'maware of ...
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Some seriously good players are not going to start. The good times are back.
@berniescorner said in Wales v All Blacks 30th Oct NH Tour:
Some seriously good players are not going to
startmake the XXIII. The good times are back.FIFY
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@crucial said in Wales v All Blacks 30th Oct NH Tour:
@chris-b said in Wales v All Blacks 30th Oct NH Tour:
Would be a big call to jump Christie over TJ.
I can't really see it, because if things are turning to custard under Weber - you'd want to bring on TJ's experience, rather than a rookie who's not as good as your starter.
Even though form today might suggest some logic.
Interesting though that Foster said a handful of places were “up for grabs”. Judging by the selection, if they were giving certain players a chance I would guess halfback, first-five, second five and wing. Possibly the loose forward mix but we know Ardie and Akira will start so it’s either Papalii, Blackadder, Jacobsen or Sotutu to join them. Can’t see how this game offered much to sort that out except Jacobsen confirming his class.
Or Sam Cane among the loosies. Which wouldn't surprise me, but I don't really like him and Ardie in the same trio. To be honest, we've got lots of big 7s/small 6/8s in our loose forward mix - so I'd like to see Akira and Jacobsen continue to make strides.
Starting tighthead is another question-mark. I think it will still be Laulala for Wales.
I think we'll see lots of things changed up vs Wales. Then a team not dissimilar to this morning's play Italy.
Then probably the first choice selections vs France and Ireland (which will mainly be the Wales team, but not all). Might still be a bit of rotation where things are up for grabs.
@chris-b said in Wales v All Blacks 30th Oct NH Tour:
Starting tighthead is another question-mark. I think it will still be Laulala for Wales.
I can't see how Ofa starts on current form. Laulala at least offers you a solid scrum.
I also wouldn't be rushing Cane back so he might be better to not be involved in this test, but start against Italy, with a view of being in the 23 for Ireland and France.
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@chris-b oh I'm far from thrilled that FC is next best, but TJP is so far off the mark it's not funny. To come on in an annihilation and be that much worse than FC really says something for me.
Still, wouldn't be at all surprised if he's on the beach.
@bones He was pretty poor this morning - but, even that might be a reaction to his demotion behind Weber. Trying too hard. I think he was better in some of the RC games.
However, if you drop him behind Christie - and with Smith and Fakatava waiting in the wings - you're telling him 5th best and falling - so you've got to be sure you're not going to need him again.
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@chris-b said in Wales v All Blacks 30th Oct NH Tour:
Starting tighthead is another question-mark. I think it will still be Laulala for Wales.
I can't see how Ofa starts on current form. Laulala at least offers you a solid scrum.
I also wouldn't be rushing Cane back so he might be better to not be involved in this test, but start against Italy, with a view of being in the 23 for Ireland and France.
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@bones He was pretty poor this morning - but, even that might be a reaction to his demotion behind Weber. Trying too hard. I think he was better in some of the RC games.
However, if you drop him behind Christie - and with Smith and Fakatava waiting in the wings - you're telling him 5th best and falling - so you've got to be sure you're not going to need him again.
@chris-b I would've thought that's the benefit of experience. Knowing that if you're good enough, your time will come, so just do your job. Not come on and lay logs all over the park then throw them at the selectors when you're rewarded in kind.
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@bovidae said in Wales v All Blacks 30th Oct NH Tour:
Laulala at least offers you a solid scrum.
Does he though? I feel like his scrum prowess grows, the less he offers about the park. Very similar to Franks.
@bones said in Wales v All Blacks 30th Oct NH Tour:
@bovidae said in Wales v All Blacks 30th Oct NH Tour:
Laulala at least offers you a solid scrum.
Does he though? I feel like his scrum prowess grows, the less he offers about the park. Very similar to Franks.
I do think the scrum is better with Laulala at TH. I've been critical of him around the field though (e.g. lazy offsides, very little metres as a ball carrier). The problem is that Tu'ungafasi has also looked like Franks with the ball in hand since his return. Describing him as passive would be too kind.
And speaking of props, Moody needs to step up too.
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@chris-b I would've thought that's the benefit of experience. Knowing that if you're good enough, your time will come, so just do your job. Not come on and lay logs all over the park then throw them at the selectors when you're rewarded in kind.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pieter-Steph_du_Toit
The Jaapies already outmuscled us - and they've got Big Pieter-Steph still to come.
We don't have a hulking big bugger like that - except maybe Stupid Shannon.
@chris-b said in Wales v All Blacks 30th Oct NH Tour:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pieter-Steph_du_Toit
The Jaapies already outmuscled us - and they've got Big Pieter-Steph still to come.
We don't have a hulking big bugger like that - except maybe Stupid Shannon.
Shannon appears to be 1cm taller than Akira and 5 kg lighter (108kg to Akira's 113). Shannon doesn't stand out as a monster, lighter than Blackadder (111kg) too.
Hmm maybe I should list them
from https://www.allblacks.com/teams/all-blacks/ (ABs site)
but where I think the data is old I have replaced with Wikipedia, and ordered by weight (heft) rather than by height.
Name Weight Height Age
At 6
Akira Ioane 113, 1.94*, 26
Ethan Blackadder 111,1.90, 26
Luke Jacobson 107, 1.91, 24
Shannon Frizell 108, 1.95, 27
At 7
Dalton Papalli 113, 1.93, 24
Sam Cane 103, 1.89, 29
Ardie Savea 102 (Canes site, 99 on ABs site), 1.88 (AB:1.9), 28*
At 8
Luke Jacobson 107, 1.91, 24
Hoskins Sotutu 106, 1.93, 23
Ardie Savea 102 (not 99?), 1.88 (Canes sites but 1.9 on ABs site), 28*Looks to me like Wikipedia is more accurate for Akira (agrees with https://blues.rugby/players/akira-ioane/.
**ABs site looks too tall and light for Ardie, he definitely isn't the same height (1.9?!) as Akira (more likely 1.88 compared to 1.94)!Ok the Boks loose forwards will almost always be heavier if Duane or Jasper are playing, but they really aren't hugely more massive/taller unless PST is playing, and, well, I don't think anyone is calling for SB to go back to 6?
Jerome Kaino may have been 1.96m tall or so but if at 109-110kg would have been slightly lighter than Akira, Ethan, and Dalton P.
Boks (please help me if I get this wrong):
https://www.springboks.rugby/sa-teams-players/springboks/
Flankers (SA 6 and 7s)
Piter Steph-du Toit 120kg, 2m, 29 (plays at 7, but SA 7) but not in the current squad and really, he is a lock, isn't he?
Marco van Staden, 110, 1.84, 24
Siya Kolis 107, 1.86, 30
Kwagga Smith, 95, 1.8, 27
8
Duane Vermeulen 117kg 1.93m, 35
Jasper Wiese 118, 1.9, 26 (or flanker) -
@chris-b said in Wales v All Blacks 30th Oct NH Tour:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pieter-Steph_du_Toit
The Jaapies already outmuscled us - and they've got Big Pieter-Steph still to come.
We don't have a hulking big bugger like that - except maybe Stupid Shannon.
Shannon appears to be 1cm taller than Akira and 5 kg lighter (108kg to Akira's 113). Shannon doesn't stand out as a monster, lighter than Blackadder (111kg) too.
Hmm maybe I should list them
from https://www.allblacks.com/teams/all-blacks/ (ABs site)
but where I think the data is old I have replaced with Wikipedia, and ordered by weight (heft) rather than by height.
Name Weight Height Age
At 6
Akira Ioane 113, 1.94*, 26
Ethan Blackadder 111,1.90, 26
Luke Jacobson 107, 1.91, 24
Shannon Frizell 108, 1.95, 27
At 7
Dalton Papalli 113, 1.93, 24
Sam Cane 103, 1.89, 29
Ardie Savea 102 (Canes site, 99 on ABs site), 1.88 (AB:1.9), 28*
At 8
Luke Jacobson 107, 1.91, 24
Hoskins Sotutu 106, 1.93, 23
Ardie Savea 102 (not 99?), 1.88 (Canes sites but 1.9 on ABs site), 28*Looks to me like Wikipedia is more accurate for Akira (agrees with https://blues.rugby/players/akira-ioane/.
**ABs site looks too tall and light for Ardie, he definitely isn't the same height (1.9?!) as Akira (more likely 1.88 compared to 1.94)!Ok the Boks loose forwards will almost always be heavier if Duane or Jasper are playing, but they really aren't hugely more massive/taller unless PST is playing, and, well, I don't think anyone is calling for SB to go back to 6?
Jerome Kaino may have been 1.96m tall or so but if at 109-110kg would have been slightly lighter than Akira, Ethan, and Dalton P.
Boks (please help me if I get this wrong):
https://www.springboks.rugby/sa-teams-players/springboks/
Flankers (SA 6 and 7s)
Piter Steph-du Toit 120kg, 2m, 29 (plays at 7, but SA 7) but not in the current squad and really, he is a lock, isn't he?
Marco van Staden, 110, 1.84, 24
Siya Kolis 107, 1.86, 30
Kwagga Smith, 95, 1.8, 27
8
Duane Vermeulen 117kg 1.93m, 35
Jasper Wiese 118, 1.9, 26 (or flanker) -
@act-crusader said in Wales v All Blacks 30th Oct NH Tour:
J. Barrett, Reece, R. Ioane
Havili, ALB
Weber, Mo’ungaBench: Perenara, B. Barrett, W. Jordan
Am not sure I believe you ... none of the bolded have Canterbury or Crusaders links I'maware of ...
@booboo said in Wales v All Blacks 30th Oct NH Tour:
@act-crusader said in Wales v All Blacks 30th Oct NH Tour:
J. Barrett, Reece, R. Ioane
Havili, ALB
Weber, Mo’ungaBench: Perenara, B. Barrett, W. Jordan
Am not sure I believe you ... none of the bolded have Canterbury or Crusaders links unaware of ...
A few tokens out there, although I could’ve named Ennor and Bridge just to fire up a few on here….
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@nostrildamus Wieser is surprising there. Definitely doesn't look like a big loosie to me.
@bones said in Wales v All Blacks 30th Oct NH Tour:
@nostrildamus Wieser is surprising there. Definitely doesn't look like a big loosie to me.
Yes, from Boks website https://www.springboks.rugby/sa-teams-players/springboks/
but elsewhere I see him listed as 110kg.
