England vs Springbokke
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England team announced. Cato shakes head. Along with several million rugby fans world-wide.
England: Steward; Marchant, Slade, Tuilagi, May; Smith, Youngs; Rodd, Blamire, Sinckler, Itoje, Hill, Lawes (capt), Underhill, Curry.
Replacements: Dolly, Marler, Stuart, Ewels, Simmonds, Dombrandt, Quirke, *Malins.
@catogrande can you elaborate for us few hundred that don't know much about English rugby.
I guess the issue with is the two eights on the bench is still there, but what's the story with Marchant?
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@catogrande can you elaborate for us few hundred that don't know much about English rugby.
I guess the issue with is the two eights on the bench is still there, but what's the story with Marchant?
@sidbarret I’m not even sure I understand what’s wrong with that backrow/bench selection?
The starting backrow is bloody good. And, in its own way, nicely balanced.
Even if you could convince me that a standard loose trio was a better bet for England’s current style of play (and I’m not sure you could), I like the selection:
- Given the frontrow issues, I wouldn’t throw Dombrandt in as a starter against SA;
- Simmons and Dombrandt running lines off Smith in the last quarter against tired legs worries me.
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@catogrande can you elaborate for us few hundred that don't know much about English rugby.
I guess the issue with is the two eights on the bench is still there, but what's the story with Marchant?
@sidbarret said in England vs Springbokke:
@catogrande can you elaborate for us few hundred that don't know much about English rugby.
I guess the issue with is the two eights on the bench is still there, but what's the story with Marchant?
I can understand @Smuts points above but... but. Dombrandt is a bigger more powerful unit than Curry. He is a specialist 8 who can carry and distribute very well and cuts some great lines in attack. He is no slouch defensively either. Not a noted jackal but when you have either of Curry or Underhill there as well as Itoje and Lawes, I don't think that is an area where we are lacking. Curry has been tried at 8 a few times now and whilst he hasn't let us down, I don't think anyone would suggest that experiment has worked. Eddie obviously sees Simmonds as a 6 or 7 replacement, which I can understand but that's a fairly big call for a guy that hasn't really played either for God knows how long.
Marchant is a very good player but primarily a centre. His selection reeks of defensive solidity over any form of attacking objective. Radwan (who I think is fit again) or Malins offer more of a threat, though in different ways. Malins has been playing some wonderful stuff for Bristol last season and Saracens this season, mainly from FB but lately on the wing. His solidity under the high ball and his nose for attack are both bloody good. From the 23, I'd have Malins start and Marchant on the bench to cover mainly centre and at a pinch wing. Slade and Malins offer cover at 10/12/15 and either wing.
Marchant is an understandable choice on the wing if your game plan is to have Youngs kick the ball to SA all bloody day and invite them to run at you. And how did that go for the Lions?
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@sidbarret said in England vs Springbokke:
@catogrande can you elaborate for us few hundred that don't know much about English rugby.
I guess the issue with is the two eights on the bench is still there, but what's the story with Marchant?
I can understand @Smuts points above but... but. Dombrandt is a bigger more powerful unit than Curry. He is a specialist 8 who can carry and distribute very well and cuts some great lines in attack. He is no slouch defensively either. Not a noted jackal but when you have either of Curry or Underhill there as well as Itoje and Lawes, I don't think that is an area where we are lacking. Curry has been tried at 8 a few times now and whilst he hasn't let us down, I don't think anyone would suggest that experiment has worked. Eddie obviously sees Simmonds as a 6 or 7 replacement, which I can understand but that's a fairly big call for a guy that hasn't really played either for God knows how long.
Marchant is a very good player but primarily a centre. His selection reeks of defensive solidity over any form of attacking objective. Radwan (who I think is fit again) or Malins offer more of a threat, though in different ways. Malins has been playing some wonderful stuff for Bristol last season and Saracens this season, mainly from FB but lately on the wing. His solidity under the high ball and his nose for attack are both bloody good. From the 23, I'd have Malins start and Marchant on the bench to cover mainly centre and at a pinch wing. Slade and Malins offer cover at 10/12/15 and either wing.
Marchant is an understandable choice on the wing if your game plan is to have Youngs kick the ball to SA all bloody day and invite them to run at you. And how did that go for the Lions?
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@catogrande thanks, how quick is Marchant? He'll be marking Mapimpi so there might be an opportunity there
@sidbarret said in England vs Springbokke:
@catogrande thanks, how quick is Marchant? He'll be marking Mapimpi so there might be an opportunity there
That's one of the main points. He's no slouch for a centre but a bit lacking on the wing. Plus I'm not that sure of his positional play defensively.
it might work out but to me it is high risk/low reward stuff.
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Not wanting to lose, rather than wanting to win
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@oompb said in England vs Springbokke:
@smuts I am not a Jesse fan but he played well against Scotland. The same with Elton Junkies. Then this Bok team is not a XV but rather a 23 team. We got the best two frontrows in world rugby, add the three locks and all add up that's where rugby matches will be won mostly.
Two best front rows? Ireland would like a word
. And the French.@stodders said in England vs Springbokke:
@oompb said in England vs Springbokke:
@smuts I am not a Jesse fan but he played well against Scotland. The same with Elton Junkies. Then this Bok team is not a XV but rather a 23 team. We got the best two frontrows in world rugby, add the three locks and all add up that's where rugby matches will be won mostly.
Two best front rows? Ireland would like a word
. And the French.I hear you, but without being overly pedantic about who is "the best" @OomPB 's point holds water in that the Boks have 2 world class front-rows comparable to the best in world rugby right now.
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@stodders said in England vs Springbokke:
@oompb said in England vs Springbokke:
@smuts I am not a Jesse fan but he played well against Scotland. The same with Elton Junkies. Then this Bok team is not a XV but rather a 23 team. We got the best two frontrows in world rugby, add the three locks and all add up that's where rugby matches will be won mostly.
Two best front rows? Ireland would like a word
. And the French.I hear you, but without being overly pedantic about who is "the best" @OomPB 's point holds water in that the Boks have 2 world class front-rows comparable to the best in world rugby right now.
@billy-webb said in England vs Springbokke:
@stodders said in England vs Springbokke:
@oompb said in England vs Springbokke:
@smuts I am not a Jesse fan but he played well against Scotland. The same with Elton Junkies. Then this Bok team is not a XV but rather a 23 team. We got the best two frontrows in world rugby, add the three locks and all add up that's where rugby matches will be won mostly.
Two best front rows? Ireland would like a word
. And the French.I hear you, but without being overly pedantic about who is "the best" @OomPB 's point holds water in that the Boks have 2 world class front-rows comparable to the best in world rugby right now.
"We got the best two front rows in world rugby"
vs
"We got the best front row depth in world rugby with two sets of world class front rows"
Those are v different statements, no?
It is like when NZ used to have a squad with 2 international class XVs. They didn't have the best 2 XVs in world rugby (even if some did argue this was the case), but they did have the strongest depth by far that would be more than competitive when compared to other teams.
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@stodders said in England vs Springbokke:
@oompb said in England vs Springbokke:
@smuts I am not a Jesse fan but he played well against Scotland. The same with Elton Junkies. Then this Bok team is not a XV but rather a 23 team. We got the best two frontrows in world rugby, add the three locks and all add up that's where rugby matches will be won mostly.
Two best front rows? Ireland would like a word
. And the French.I hear you, but without being overly pedantic about who is "the best" @OomPB 's point holds water in that the Boks have 2 world class front-rows comparable to the best in world rugby right now.
@billy-webb said in England vs Springbokke:
@stodders said in England vs Springbokke:
@oompb said in England vs Springbokke:
@smuts I am not a Jesse fan but he played well against Scotland. The same with Elton Junkies. Then this Bok team is not a XV but rather a 23 team. We got the best two frontrows in world rugby, add the three locks and all add up that's where rugby matches will be won mostly.
Two best front rows? Ireland would like a word
. And the French.I hear you, but without being overly pedantic about who is "the best" @OomPB 's point holds water in that the Boks have 2 world class front-rows comparable to the best in world rugby right now.
But yes, the Boks are certainly v strong, if not the strongest, in the tight five with world class depth at LH, TH, hooker and lock. The drop off in quality is negligible at best, so they really can select horses for courses.
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@stodders said in England vs Springbokke:
@oompb said in England vs Springbokke:
@smuts I am not a Jesse fan but he played well against Scotland. The same with Elton Junkies. Then this Bok team is not a XV but rather a 23 team. We got the best two frontrows in world rugby, add the three locks and all add up that's where rugby matches will be won mostly.
Two best front rows? Ireland would like a word
. And the French.I hear you, but without being overly pedantic about who is "the best" @OomPB 's point holds water in that the Boks have 2 world class front-rows comparable to the best in world rugby right now.
@billy-webb said in England vs Springbokke:
@stodders said in England vs Springbokke:
@oompb said in England vs Springbokke:
@smuts I am not a Jesse fan but he played well against Scotland. The same with Elton Junkies. Then this Bok team is not a XV but rather a 23 team. We got the best two frontrows in world rugby, add the three locks and all add up that's where rugby matches will be won mostly.
Two best front rows? Ireland would like a word
. And the French.I hear you, but without being overly pedantic about who is "the best" @OomPB 's point holds water in that the Boks have 2 world class front-rows comparable to the best in world rugby right now.
I would be intrigued to see how the Irish front row would fare against SA right now. I think the all round SA tight five would edge it, as Etzebeth and De Jaager are probably the pre-eminent locking duo in world rugby right now. Scarily, I think SA could get even better in this area if RG Snyman can get past his recent injury troubles. He is a ball playing monster.
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@stodders said in England vs Springbokke:
@oompb said in England vs Springbokke:
@smuts I am not a Jesse fan but he played well against Scotland. The same with Elton Junkies. Then this Bok team is not a XV but rather a 23 team. We got the best two frontrows in world rugby, add the three locks and all add up that's where rugby matches will be won mostly.
Two best front rows? Ireland would like a word
. And the French.I hear you, but without being overly pedantic about who is "the best" @OomPB 's point holds water in that the Boks have 2 world class front-rows comparable to the best in world rugby right now.
@billy-webb said in England vs Springbokke:
@stodders said in England vs Springbokke:
@oompb said in England vs Springbokke:
@smuts I am not a Jesse fan but he played well against Scotland. The same with Elton Junkies. Then this Bok team is not a XV but rather a 23 team. We got the best two frontrows in world rugby, add the three locks and all add up that's where rugby matches will be won mostly.
Two best front rows? Ireland would like a word
. And the French.I hear you, but without being overly pedantic about who is "the best" @OomPB 's point holds water in that the Boks have 2 world class front-rows comparable to the best in world rugby right now.
If the 3 fat guys that had to be substituted in the second game vs us at 35 minutes are world class, then the game is even in worse shape than I thought.
No question that tight 5 depth in SA is the envy of the world, but lets not go nuts.
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@billy-webb said in England vs Springbokke:
@stodders said in England vs Springbokke:
@oompb said in England vs Springbokke:
@smuts I am not a Jesse fan but he played well against Scotland. The same with Elton Junkies. Then this Bok team is not a XV but rather a 23 team. We got the best two frontrows in world rugby, add the three locks and all add up that's where rugby matches will be won mostly.
Two best front rows? Ireland would like a word
. And the French.I hear you, but without being overly pedantic about who is "the best" @OomPB 's point holds water in that the Boks have 2 world class front-rows comparable to the best in world rugby right now.
If the 3 fat guys that had to be substituted in the second game vs us at 35 minutes are world class, then the game is even in worse shape than I thought.
No question that tight 5 depth in SA is the envy of the world, but lets not go nuts.
@majorrage said in England vs Springbokke:
@billy-webb said in England vs Springbokke:
@stodders said in England vs Springbokke:
@oompb said in England vs Springbokke:
@smuts I am not a Jesse fan but he played well against Scotland. The same with Elton Junkies. Then this Bok team is not a XV but rather a 23 team. We got the best two frontrows in world rugby, add the three locks and all add up that's where rugby matches will be won mostly.
Two best front rows? Ireland would like a word
. And the French.I hear you, but without being overly pedantic about who is "the best" @OomPB 's point holds water in that the Boks have 2 world class front-rows comparable to the best in world rugby right now.
If the 3 fat guys that had to be substituted in the second game vs us at 35 minutes are world class, then the game is even in worse shape than I thought.
No question that tight 5 depth in SA is the envy of the world, but lets not go nuts.
In fairness, if you had to move those guys around for 35 mins you'd be pretty knackered as an opposition player. Pretty ingenious tactic from SA
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@billy-webb said in England vs Springbokke:
@stodders said in England vs Springbokke:
@oompb said in England vs Springbokke:
@smuts I am not a Jesse fan but he played well against Scotland. The same with Elton Junkies. Then this Bok team is not a XV but rather a 23 team. We got the best two frontrows in world rugby, add the three locks and all add up that's where rugby matches will be won mostly.
Two best front rows? Ireland would like a word
. And the French.I hear you, but without being overly pedantic about who is "the best" @OomPB 's point holds water in that the Boks have 2 world class front-rows comparable to the best in world rugby right now.
I would be intrigued to see how the Irish front row would fare against SA right now. I think the all round SA tight five would edge it, as Etzebeth and De Jaager are probably the pre-eminent locking duo in world rugby right now. Scarily, I think SA could get even better in this area if RG Snyman can get past his recent injury troubles. He is a ball playing monster.
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@smuts said in England vs Springbokke:
@stodders Me too. I’ve got November 5th next year heavily circled in my calendar…
Boks have several prominent players plying their trade in Ireland these days (DDA, Snyman and soon to be Vermeulen). Add this to SA based players playing the remainder of the this season's URC and both the Irish and Bok players will have a fair amount of knowledge of playing one another by the time next year rolls around.
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@smuts said in England vs Springbokke:
@stodders Me too. I’ve got November 5th next year heavily circled in my calendar…
Boks have several prominent players plying their trade in Ireland these days (DDA, Snyman and soon to be Vermeulen). Add this to SA based players playing the remainder of the this season's URC and both the Irish and Bok players will have a fair amount of knowledge of playing one another by the time next year rolls around.
@stodders to say nothing of the SA coaches in Ireland now and Nienaber and Rassie’s time at Munster.
And they’re in the same pool in 2023…
On RG, it is going to be very interesting whether he’ll be able to come back at anything like his previous best. There are very, very few examples of completely successful double rupture rehabs.
Granted, I’m not a 2m revivified Viking bezerker, but we crawled out of the same primordial gene pool and had very similar timing on our second go round. From rebuilding muscle mass and strength, to regaining flexibility, coordination and proprioception it’s all so much more challenging and timeconsuming.
But the biggest factor is trusting the damn joint to do it’s job.
Having said all that, I’m led to understand by people what know that the Irish rehab pros are at the leading edge. And RG is a mutant. Would be inspiring to see him back at anything near his previous form.
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@stodders to say nothing of the SA coaches in Ireland now and Nienaber and Rassie’s time at Munster.
And they’re in the same pool in 2023…
On RG, it is going to be very interesting whether he’ll be able to come back at anything like his previous best. There are very, very few examples of completely successful double rupture rehabs.
Granted, I’m not a 2m revivified Viking bezerker, but we crawled out of the same primordial gene pool and had very similar timing on our second go round. From rebuilding muscle mass and strength, to regaining flexibility, coordination and proprioception it’s all so much more challenging and timeconsuming.
But the biggest factor is trusting the damn joint to do it’s job.
Having said all that, I’m led to understand by people what know that the Irish rehab pros are at the leading edge. And RG is a mutant. Would be inspiring to see him back at anything near his previous form.
@smuts said in England vs Springbokke:
@stodders to say nothing of the SA coaches in Ireland now and Nienaber and Rassie’s time at Munster.
And they’re in the same pool in 2023…
On RG, it is going to be very interesting whether he’ll be able to come back at anything like his previous best. There are very, very few examples of completely successful double rupture rehabs.
Granted, I’m not a 2m revivified Viking bezerker, but we crawled out of the same primordial gene pool and had very similar timing on our second go round. From rebuilding muscle mass and strength, to regaining flexibility, coordination and proprioception it’s all so much more challenging and timeconsuming.
But the biggest factor is trusting the damn joint to do it’s job.
Having said all that, I’m led to understand by people what know that the Irish rehab pros are at the leading edge. And RG is a mutant. Would be inspiring to see him back at anything near his previous form.
If he does come back fully-firing, he's a game changer for the Boks. Etzebeth is a brute, but he's not really a ball player. Snyman can be for the Boks what Retallick is (was) for the ABs. a real point of difference.
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Springbok team to face England in London:
15 – Willie le Roux (Toyota Verblitz) – 71 caps, 60 pts (12t)
14 – Jesse Kriel (Canon Eagles) – 50 caps, 60 pts (12t)
13 – Lukhanyo Am (Cell C Sharks) – 25 caps, 25 pts (5t)
12 – Damian de Allende (Munster) – 57 caps, 35 pts (7t)
11 – Makazole Mapimpi (Cell C Sharks) – 24 caps, 95 pts (19t)
10 – Handré Pollard (Montpellier) – 59 caps, 586 pts (6t, 83c, 126p, 4d)
9 – Cobus Reinach (Montpellier) – 20 caps, 40pts (8t)
8 – Duane Vermeulen (Ulster) – 60 caps, 15 pts (3t)
7 – Kwagga Smith (Yamaha Júbilo) – 18 caps, 5 pts (1t)
6 – Siya Kolisi (captain, Cell C Sharks) – 62 caps, 30 pts (6t)
5 – Lood de Jager (Sale Sharks) – 55 caps, 25 pts (5t)
4 – Eben Etzebeth (Toulon) – 96 caps, 15 pts (3t)
3 – Trevor Nyakane (Vodacom Bulls) – 53 caps, 5pts (1t)
2 – Bongi Mbonambi (Cell C Sharks) – 47 caps, 45 pts (9t)
1 – Ox Nché (Cell C Sharks) – 8 caps, 0ptsReplacements:
16 – Malcolm Marx (Kubota Spears) – 45 caps, 50 pts (10t)
17 – Steven Kitshoff (DHL Stormers) – 58 caps, 5pts (1t)
18 – Vincent Koch (Saracens) – 30 caps, 0 pts
19 – Franco Mostert (Honda Heat) – 50 caps, 5pts (1t)
20 – Jasper Wiese (Leicester Tigers) – 10 caps, 0 pts
21 – Herschel Jantjies (DHL Stormers) – 20 caps, 25 pts (5t)
22 – Elton Jantjies (NTT Docomo Red Hurricanes) – 43 caps, 323 pts (2t, 65c, 60p, 1d)
23 – Frans Steyn (Toyota Cheetahs) – 73 caps, 147pts (11t, 7c, 23p, 3d)Springbok record against England:
Played 43; Won 26; Lost 15; Drawn 2; Points for 919; Points against 729; Tries scored 85; Tries conceded 54; Highest score 58; Biggest win 48; Win % 60.5%
Match stats:
Handré Pollard needs 14 more points to reach 600 career points for the Springboks.
Frans Steyn needs three more points to reach 150 career points for the Springboks.
Makazole Mapimpi is one try short of 20 Test tries and 100 Test points.
Bongi Mbonambi needs one try to reach 10 tries and 50 career points.
Miscellaneous:The total Test caps for the Springbok starting line-up is 705.
There are 306 caps in the backline with 399 caps amongst the forwards. On the bench there are a further 329 caps.
The average caps per player in the backline are 43, the forwards 49, while the players on the bench average 41There's always some very cool names in the Saffa team. Not quite up there with Wales as they have Basham and Samson Lee, but close.
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Ireland making the All Blacks their bitch last week. England thumping the Boks this week. Welcome to the era of Northern Hemisphere Rugby dominance.
@sparky said in England vs Springbokke:
Ireland making the All Blacks their bitch last week. England thumping the Boks this week. Welcome to the era of Northern Hemisphere Rugby dominance.
But Sth Africa aren't making dumb mistakes and giving up stupid penalties when under pressure. And their senior players are stepping up. Unlike us last week.
Good game to watch.
