Wales v Australia
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OK, I don't know how to make animated GIFs, but here's a couple of screen grabs which I think show the ball went backwards fairly clearly (as much as a couple of still images can).
Tompkins is standing with his back to the sideline - Wales are attacking to the left of the picture. He reaches out and hits the ball with his left hand, it travels back and lands right by his left foot. (He doesn't move his foot between the two pictures.
This angle is shown at 1:47:00 on the Stan replay
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OK, I don't know how to make animated GIFs, but here's a couple of screen grabs which I think show the ball went backwards fairly clearly (as much as a couple of still images can).
Tompkins is standing with his back to the sideline - Wales are attacking to the left of the picture. He reaches out and hits the ball with his left hand, it travels back and lands right by his left foot. (He doesn't move his foot between the two pictures.
This angle is shown at 1:47:00 on the Stan replay
@gibbon-rib I don't think the argument should be about whether it went backwards by an inch or not.
In basically EVERY instance this happens, the referee penalises the intent, which here quite clearly was to disrupt the pass through a negative play, that is not in the spirit of the game.
The ball was not clearly knocked back (it was knocked back by an inch or two), but the intent of the player was to disrupt and he took the chance of an extremely negative play which he might have been carded for. Seeing as assumed intent is already a part that is refereed, 99 out of a 100 refs would penalise the Welsh player here.Basically, nobody wants to see a try like this, nobody wants to see plays decided by measuring whether a ball fell downwards at an angle or not. The intent was bad and he got lucky. Yes, play to the whistle and all (fucking idiot Kurtley), but the Welsh player knew himself he fucked up. If that try was chalked off, there would be almost no complaints, as it wouldn't feel wrong. We all know that is not how we play this game.
You would hope 100 out 100 would not penalise.
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@gibbon-rib I don't think the argument should be about whether it went backwards by an inch or not.
In basically EVERY instance this happens, the referee penalises the intent, which here quite clearly was to disrupt the pass through a negative play, that is not in the spirit of the game.
The ball was not clearly knocked back (it was knocked back by an inch or two), but the intent of the player was to disrupt and he took the chance of an extremely negative play which he might have been carded for. Seeing as assumed intent is already a part that is refereed, 99 out of a 100 refs would penalise the Welsh player here.Basically, nobody wants to see a try like this, nobody wants to see plays decided by measuring whether a ball fell downwards at an angle or not. The intent was bad and he got lucky. Yes, play to the whistle and all (fucking idiot Kurtley), but the Welsh player knew himself he fucked up. If that try was chalked off, there would be almost no complaints, as it wouldn't feel wrong. We all know that is not how we play this game.
You would hope 100 out 100 would not penalise.
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So we've got no explanation as to why a swinging arm to the head is a YC when compared to Valetini's fuck up? At least Valetini was attempting a tackle. What was the Welsh player doing?
@bones said in Wales v Australia:
So we've got no explanation as to why a swinging arm to the head is a YC when compared to Valetini's fuck up? At least Valetini was attempting a tackle. What was the Welsh player doing?
That is the one big decision that I think the ref didwrong. Thomas was lucky to get away with a yellow.
At least Valetini was attempting a valid tackle, he just got it badly wrong. Thomas' clean out was just reckless and ridiculously stupid
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So we've got no explanation as to why a swinging arm to the head is a YC when compared to Valetini's fuck up? At least Valetini was attempting a tackle. What was the Welsh player doing?
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@tordah should players be penalised for negative, disruptive play like tackling opponents too?
@gibbon-rib said in Wales v Australia:
@tordah should players be penalised for negative, disruptive play like tackling opponents too?
You know what I mean. Negative as in "against the spirit of the game"
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@gibbon-rib I don't think the argument should be about whether it went backwards by an inch or not.
In basically EVERY instance this happens, the referee penalises the intent, which here quite clearly was to disrupt the pass through a negative play, that is not in the spirit of the game.
The ball was not clearly knocked back (it was knocked back by an inch or two), but the intent of the player was to disrupt and he took the chance of an extremely negative play which he might have been carded for. Seeing as assumed intent is already a part that is refereed, 99 out of a 100 refs would penalise the Welsh player here.Basically, nobody wants to see a try like this, nobody wants to see plays decided by measuring whether a ball fell downwards at an angle or not. The intent was bad and he got lucky. Yes, play to the whistle and all (fucking idiot Kurtley), but the Welsh player knew himself he fucked up. If that try was chalked off, there would be almost no complaints, as it wouldn't feel wrong. We all know that is not how we play this game.
You would hope 100 out 100 would not penalise.
@tordah said in Wales v Australia:
@gibbon-rib I don't think the argument should be about whether it went backwards by an inch or not.
In basically EVERY instance this happens, the referee penalises the intent, which here quite clearly was to disrupt the pass through a negative play, that is not in the spirit of the game.
The ball was not clearly knocked back (it was knocked back by an inch or two), but the intent of the player was to disrupt and he took the chance of an extremely negative play which he might have been carded for. Seeing as assumed intent is already a part that is refereed, 99 out of a 100 refs would penalise the Welsh player here.Basically, nobody wants to see a try like this, nobody wants to see plays decided by measuring whether a ball fell downwards at an angle or not. The intent was bad and he got lucky. Yes, play to the whistle and all (fucking idiot Kurtley), but the Welsh player knew himself he fucked up. If that try was chalked off, there would be almost no complaints, as it wouldn't feel wrong. We all know that is not how we play this game.
Why on earth not?
Why shouldn't a defensive player knock the ball down and backwards to prevent a try???
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@gibbon-rib said in Wales v Australia:
@tordah should players be penalised for negative, disruptive play like tackling opponents too?
You know what I mean. Negative as in "against the spirit of the game"
@tordah said in Wales v Australia:
@gibbon-rib said in Wales v Australia:
@tordah should players be penalised for negative, disruptive play like tackling opponents too?
You know what I mean. Negative as in "against the spirit of the game"
No, i genuinely don't. Why is knocking a ball down & backwards any more against the spirit of the game than, say, stealing a lineout?
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@tordah said in Wales v Australia:
@gibbon-rib I don't think the argument should be about whether it went backwards by an inch or not.
In basically EVERY instance this happens, the referee penalises the intent, which here quite clearly was to disrupt the pass through a negative play, that is not in the spirit of the game.
The ball was not clearly knocked back (it was knocked back by an inch or two), but the intent of the player was to disrupt and he took the chance of an extremely negative play which he might have been carded for. Seeing as assumed intent is already a part that is refereed, 99 out of a 100 refs would penalise the Welsh player here.Basically, nobody wants to see a try like this, nobody wants to see plays decided by measuring whether a ball fell downwards at an angle or not. The intent was bad and he got lucky. Yes, play to the whistle and all (fucking idiot Kurtley), but the Welsh player knew himself he fucked up. If that try was chalked off, there would be almost no complaints, as it wouldn't feel wrong. We all know that is not how we play this game.
Why on earth not?
Why shouldn't a defensive player knock the ball down and backwards to prevent a try???
@voodoo said in Wales v Australia:
@tordah said in Wales v Australia:
@gibbon-rib I don't think the argument should be about whether it went backwards by an inch or not.
In basically EVERY instance this happens, the referee penalises the intent, which here quite clearly was to disrupt the pass through a negative play, that is not in the spirit of the game.
The ball was not clearly knocked back (it was knocked back by an inch or two), but the intent of the player was to disrupt and he took the chance of an extremely negative play which he might have been carded for. Seeing as assumed intent is already a part that is refereed, 99 out of a 100 refs would penalise the Welsh player here.Basically, nobody wants to see a try like this, nobody wants to see plays decided by measuring whether a ball fell downwards at an angle or not. The intent was bad and he got lucky. Yes, play to the whistle and all (fucking idiot Kurtley), but the Welsh player knew himself he fucked up. If that try was chalked off, there would be almost no complaints, as it wouldn't feel wrong. We all know that is not how we play this game.
Why on earth not?
Why shouldn't a defensive player knock the ball down and backwards to prevent a try???
You can do it, but when you do you do it obviously backwards. Doing it in a very ambiguous way, where you need the TMO to see whether it went backwards or straight or forwards, usually results in a penalty as a deliberate knock-on. Same as in if a player drops the ball and it falls straight down or the tiniest bit backwards, it is usually given as a knock on because you punish the inability to handle the ball.
@gibbon rib: sorry, can't be bothered if you pretend you don't understand the difference between contesting a lineout and knocking the ball down (he clearly wasn't trying to knock it backwards, it just happened to fall backwards by an inch, otherwise he wouldn't have stopped playing - he knew what he did was wrong, everyone on the pitch knew it, why else was it such a farcical situation with the ref having to tell them to play on?).
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@tordah said in Wales v Australia:
@gibbon-rib I don't think the argument should be about whether it went backwards by an inch or not.
In basically EVERY instance this happens, the referee penalises the intent, which here quite clearly was to disrupt the pass through a negative play, that is not in the spirit of the game.
The ball was not clearly knocked back (it was knocked back by an inch or two), but the intent of the player was to disrupt and he took the chance of an extremely negative play which he might have been carded for. Seeing as assumed intent is already a part that is refereed, 99 out of a 100 refs would penalise the Welsh player here.Basically, nobody wants to see a try like this, nobody wants to see plays decided by measuring whether a ball fell downwards at an angle or not. The intent was bad and he got lucky. Yes, play to the whistle and all (fucking idiot Kurtley), but the Welsh player knew himself he fucked up. If that try was chalked off, there would be almost no complaints, as it wouldn't feel wrong. We all know that is not how we play this game.
Why on earth not?
Why shouldn't a defensive player knock the ball down and backwards to prevent a try???
@voodoo said in Wales v Australia:
@tordah said in Wales v Australia:
@gibbon-rib I don't think the argument should be about whether it went backwards by an inch or not.
In basically EVERY instance this happens, the referee penalises the intent, which here quite clearly was to disrupt the pass through a negative play, that is not in the spirit of the game.
The ball was not clearly knocked back (it was knocked back by an inch or two), but the intent of the player was to disrupt and he took the chance of an extremely negative play which he might have been carded for. Seeing as assumed intent is already a part that is refereed, 99 out of a 100 refs would penalise the Welsh player here.Basically, nobody wants to see a try like this, nobody wants to see plays decided by measuring whether a ball fell downwards at an angle or not. The intent was bad and he got lucky. Yes, play to the whistle and all (fucking idiot Kurtley), but the Welsh player knew himself he fucked up. If that try was chalked off, there would be almost no complaints, as it wouldn't feel wrong. We all know that is not how we play this game.
Why on earth not?
Why shouldn't a defensive player knock the ball down and backwards to prevent a try???
There are two sides to this as I agree with you, but then I wonder, as you can knock the ball on as part of a charge down then score off it, and that makes sense.
So, I can see a reasoning here that you shouldn't be able to deliberating knock down a pass from the opposition but could knock it back in general play or off a kickoff.
It's like Mabo.
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@voodoo said in Wales v Australia:
@tordah said in Wales v Australia:
@gibbon-rib I don't think the argument should be about whether it went backwards by an inch or not.
In basically EVERY instance this happens, the referee penalises the intent, which here quite clearly was to disrupt the pass through a negative play, that is not in the spirit of the game.
The ball was not clearly knocked back (it was knocked back by an inch or two), but the intent of the player was to disrupt and he took the chance of an extremely negative play which he might have been carded for. Seeing as assumed intent is already a part that is refereed, 99 out of a 100 refs would penalise the Welsh player here.Basically, nobody wants to see a try like this, nobody wants to see plays decided by measuring whether a ball fell downwards at an angle or not. The intent was bad and he got lucky. Yes, play to the whistle and all (fucking idiot Kurtley), but the Welsh player knew himself he fucked up. If that try was chalked off, there would be almost no complaints, as it wouldn't feel wrong. We all know that is not how we play this game.
Why on earth not?
Why shouldn't a defensive player knock the ball down and backwards to prevent a try???
You can do it, but when you do you do it obviously backwards. Doing it in a very ambiguous way, where you need the TMO to see whether it went backwards or straight or forwards, usually results in a penalty as a deliberate knock-on. Same as in if a player drops the ball and it falls straight down or the tiniest bit backwards, it is usually given as a knock on because you punish the inability to handle the ball.
@gibbon rib: sorry, can't be bothered if you pretend you don't understand the difference between contesting a lineout and knocking the ball down (he clearly wasn't trying to knock it backwards, it just happened to fall backwards by an inch, otherwise he wouldn't have stopped playing - he knew what he did was wrong, everyone on the pitch knew it, why else was it such a farcical situation with the ref having to tell them to play on?).
@tordah this is one of the more bizarre claims I've ever seen on a rugby site. That the ref should overrule the laws of the game and treat a legal knock-back as an illegal knock-on because if infringes some unwritten ethereal "spirit of the game".
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@tordah this is one of the more bizarre claims I've ever seen on a rugby site. That the ref should overrule the laws of the game and treat a legal knock-back as an illegal knock-on because if infringes some unwritten ethereal "spirit of the game".
@gibbon-rib said in Wales v Australia:
@tordah this is one of the more bizarre claims I've ever seen on a rugby site. That the ref should overrule the laws of the game and treat a legal knock-back as an illegal knock-on because if infringes some unwritten ethereal "spirit of the game".
Ask yourself how many tryline tackles are with contact against the head, because the attacking player is as low as possible, diving towards the tryline and then think about how many of these get penalised. There are laws and there are law interpretations and if you want to have a playable game, you need interpreters of the laws as they're written.
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In real time it's pretty bonkers he let it play on like he did. I wonder if he saw it as a line-ball decision he could check with the TMO when the try was scored?
https://www.instagram.com/p/CWgi0W_J3Ie/?utm_medium=copy_link
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@bones said in Wales v Australia:
So we've got no explanation as to why a swinging arm to the head is a YC when compared to Valetini's fuck up? At least Valetini was attempting a tackle. What was the Welsh player doing?
That is the one big decision that I think the ref didwrong. Thomas was lucky to get away with a yellow.
At least Valetini was attempting a valid tackle, he just got it badly wrong. Thomas' clean out was just reckless and ridiculously stupid
@gibbon-rib said in Wales v Australia:
@bones said in Wales v Australia:
So we've got no explanation as to why a swinging arm to the head is a YC when compared to Valetini's fuck up? At least Valetini was attempting a tackle. What was the Welsh player doing?
That is the one big decision that I think the ref didwrong. Thomas was lucky to get away with a yellow.
At least Valetini was attempting a valid tackle, he just got it badly wrong. Thomas' clean out was just reckless and ridiculously stupid
Yeah exactly and it's pretty much reaching to call it a clear out even - the player wasn't even part of the breakdown, so he was just attacking someone really.
When the ref says no mitigation for Valetini and then throws up a yellow for that (was the wrapping mitigation he discussed for this or the Aussie high shot just before it) it's hard not to think he's being blatantly biased.
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In real time it's pretty bonkers he let it play on like he did. I wonder if he saw it as a line-ball decision he could check with the TMO when the try was scored?
https://www.instagram.com/p/CWgi0W_J3Ie/?utm_medium=copy_link
@barbarian Might have been in his mind. It was a surprise he played on, 9 times out of 10 (OK, maybe 99 out of 100) it would have been a whistle straight away.
But when he's talking to the TMO he's clear that he saw it go backwards and he just wants them to check. You wouldn't do that unless you had a reasonable level of confidence. -
@gibbon-rib said in Wales v Australia:
@bones said in Wales v Australia:
So we've got no explanation as to why a swinging arm to the head is a YC when compared to Valetini's fuck up? At least Valetini was attempting a tackle. What was the Welsh player doing?
That is the one big decision that I think the ref didwrong. Thomas was lucky to get away with a yellow.
At least Valetini was attempting a valid tackle, he just got it badly wrong. Thomas' clean out was just reckless and ridiculously stupid
Yeah exactly and it's pretty much reaching to call it a clear out even - the player wasn't even part of the breakdown, so he was just attacking someone really.
When the ref says no mitigation for Valetini and then throws up a yellow for that (was the wrapping mitigation he discussed for this or the Aussie high shot just before it) it's hard not to think he's being blatantly biased.
@bones Yeah, the wrapping was supposedly the mitigation for this. But that's nonsense, makes no sense. The only way this is not as bad is that the impact to the head wasn't as hard as the Valentini one, but it was still bad enough that it wasn't mitigation.
Edit: it's also worth comparing this one with the Fijian red last week - that was a similar case of a guy throwing himself at someone on the ground and smacking his head with his arm. Very inconsistent, Thomas should have seen red
Edit2 : the mitigation for the Aussie one in the same phase (I think it was Alaalatoa on Basham) was that the Welsh player was falling into him
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@bones Yeah, the wrapping was supposedly the mitigation for this. But that's nonsense, makes no sense. The only way this is not as bad is that the impact to the head wasn't as hard as the Valentini one, but it was still bad enough that it wasn't mitigation.
Edit: it's also worth comparing this one with the Fijian red last week - that was a similar case of a guy throwing himself at someone on the ground and smacking his head with his arm. Very inconsistent, Thomas should have seen red
Edit2 : the mitigation for the Aussie one in the same phase (I think it was Alaalatoa on Basham) was that the Welsh player was falling into him
@gibbon-rib said in Wales v Australia:
Edit: it's also worth comparing this one with the Fijian red last week - that was a similar case of a guy throwing himself at someone on the ground and smacking his head with his arm. Very inconsistent, Thomas should have seen red
From memory the Fiji player completed a tackle then had a second swing.
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@tordah this is one of the more bizarre claims I've ever seen on a rugby site. That the ref should overrule the laws of the game and treat a legal knock-back as an illegal knock-on because if infringes some unwritten ethereal "spirit of the game".
@gibbon-rib said in Wales v Australia:
@tordah this is one of the more bizarre claims I've ever seen on a rugby site. That the ref should overrule the laws of the game and treat a legal knock-back as an illegal knock-on because if infringes some unwritten ethereal "spirit of the game".
Yep, I find the fuss being made over this decision baffling. It went backwards, hence it was legal. It's that simple. You can't wish something into the law book that's not there when a decision doesn't go your way.
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@gibbon-rib I don't think the argument should be about whether it went backwards by an inch or not.
In basically EVERY instance this happens, the referee penalises the intent, which here quite clearly was to disrupt the pass through a negative play, that is not in the spirit of the game.
The ball was not clearly knocked back (it was knocked back by an inch or two), but the intent of the player was to disrupt and he took the chance of an extremely negative play which he might have been carded for. Seeing as assumed intent is already a part that is refereed, 99 out of a 100 refs would penalise the Welsh player here.Basically, nobody wants to see a try like this, nobody wants to see plays decided by measuring whether a ball fell downwards at an angle or not. The intent was bad and he got lucky. Yes, play to the whistle and all (fucking idiot Kurtley), but the Welsh player knew himself he fucked up. If that try was chalked off, there would be almost no complaints, as it wouldn't feel wrong. We all know that is not how we play this game.
You would hope 100 out 100 would not penalise.
@tordah said in Wales v Australia:
@gibbon-rib I don't think the argument should be about whether it went backwards by an inch or not.
In basically EVERY instance this happens, the referee penalises the intent, which here quite clearly was to disrupt the pass through a negative play, that is not in the spirit of the game.
The ball was not clearly knocked back (it was knocked back by an inch or two), but the intent of the player was to disrupt and he took the chance of an extremely negative play which he might have been carded for. Seeing as assumed intent is already a part that is refereed, 99 out of a 100 refs would penalise the Welsh player here.Basically, nobody wants to see a try like this, nobody wants to see plays decided by measuring whether a ball fell downwards at an angle or not. The intent was bad and he got lucky. Yes, play to the whistle and all (fucking idiot Kurtley), but the Welsh player knew himself he fucked up. If that try was chalked off, there would be almost no complaints, as it wouldn't feel wrong. We all know that is not how we play this game.
You would hope 100 out 100 would not penalise.
There is no "negative intent". Stopping a pass legally is a very positive result for Wales.
If you take that attitude then defence generally is "negative intent".
And Beauden "got lucky" for that regathered intercept v Wales and should have been penalised.
Don't throw dumb passes so close to the opposition and remove the chance of them being blocked.
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