Chiefs vs Crusaders
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@shark said in Chiefs vs Crusaders:
@kiwi_expat said in Chiefs vs Crusaders:
@crucial said in Chiefs vs Crusaders:
Too many mistakes tonight.
I said before the game it would be a battle of the coaches. Razor did well with tactics and we got Gatland to get his losing record going again.
The Crusaders cleaning up the penalties was the biggest difference from last week.
A coach who actually identifies problems and solves them... imagine that Fozzie?
Born from a much improved approach at the breakdown. A couple of their tries were born from lightning quick ball, which you just don't get against the Chiefs very often. They were first to the ruck on defence and on attack, even on the kick chase, they were able to get over the ball and then attack. They made a muck. The Chiefs defended hard and attacked with intent yet they couldn't hold onto the ball for more then five rucks. Razor implemented his gameplan to perfection tonight.
Crusaders missing Whitelock, Matera, Goodhue, McAllister, Ennor, Moody & others executed a very comprehensive win.
Well done Razor. Overtook Blackadder's wins as coach today after just 6 seasons. 87% win record - 23 higher than Blackadder & 14 higher than Robbie Deans (of whom had considerably stronger Crusader squads at their disposal including multiple GOAT's and all time franchise legends).
Very debatable point about which coaches had the strongest squads. Deans certainly had the deepest squads, most frontline AB talent, a good dose of razzle dazzle and a couple of the best ever guys in their positions. Blackadder inherited much of that but after 2011 had very little outside back talent most seasons and on top of that he was a terrible backline selector so we saw some shocking combinations.
2009:
Wyatt Crockett (Canterbury), Ben Franks ( Ta$man), Owen Franks (Canterbury), Bronson Murray (Canterbury), Corey Flynn (Canterbury), Jason Macdonald (Otago) (D), Brad Thorn ( Ta$man), Ross Filipo (Canterbury), Isaac Ross (Canterbury), Michael Paterson (Canterbury), Kieran Read (Canterbury), Richie McCaw (Canterbury), George Whitelock (Canterbury), Thomas Waldrom (Canterbury), Nasi Manu (Canterbury), Jonathan Poff ( Ta$man), Andy Ellis (Canterbury), Kahn Fotuali’I ( Ta$man), Colin Slade (Canterbury), Stephen Brett (Canterbury), Tim Bateman (Canterbury), Ryan Crotty (Canterbury), Casey Laulala (Canterbury), Adam Whitelock (Canterbury), Kade Poki ( Ta$man), Sean Maitland (Canterbury), Jared Payne (Canterbury)*, Leon MacDonald (Canterbury).
2010:
Wyatt Crockett, Owen Franks, Ben Franks, Peter Borlase**, Corey Flynn, Ti'i Paulo***, Brad Thorn, Isaac Ross, Chris Jack***, Sam Whitelock**, Kieran Read, Richie McCaw, George Whitelock, Jonathan Poff, Thomas Waldrom, Andy Ellis, Kahn Fotuali'i, Daniel Carter***, Daniel Bowden (D), Ryan Crotty, Tim Bateman, Robert Fruean**, Adam Whitelock, Sean Maitland, Kade Poki, Zac Guildford, Colin Slade, Jared Payne.
2011:
Matt Berquist,
Tyler Bleyendaal,
Dan Carter,
Wyatt Crockett,
Ryan Crotty,
Israel Dagg,
Andy Ellis,
Corey Flynn,
Kahn Fotuali’I,
Ben Franks,
Owen Franks,
Robbie Fruean,
Zac Guildford,
David Hall,
Willi Heinz,
Chris Jack,
Quentin MacDonald,
Sean Maitland,
Tom Marshall,
Richie McCaw,
Andrew Olorenshaw,
Jonathan Poff,
Kieran Read,
Luke Romano,
Brad Thorn,
Matt Todd,
Joe Wheeler,
Adam Whitelock,
George Whitelock,
Sam Whitelock,
Sonny Bill Williams.2012:
Richie McCaw
Nick Barrett
Tyler Bleyendaal
Dan Carter
Wyatt Crockett
Ryan Crotty
Israel Dagg
Tom Donnelly
Andrew Ellis
Corey Flynn
Ben Franks
Owen Franks
Robbie Fruean
Ben Funnell
Zac Guildford
Willi Heinz
Ross Kennedy
Quentin MacDonald
Sean Maitland
Tom Marshall
Patrick Osborne
Kieran Read
Luke Romano
Tom Taylor
Matt Todd
Joe Wheeler
Adam Whitelock
George Whitelock
Luke Whitelock
Sam Whitelock2013:
Dominic Bird ,
Tyler Bleyendaal ,
Dan Carter ,
Shane Christie ,
Wyatt Crockett ,
Ryan Crotty ,
Israel Dagg ,
Tom Donnelly ,
Andy Ellis ,
Corey Flynn ,
Owen Franks ,
Robbie Fruean ,
Ben Funnell ,
Zac Guildford ,
Willi Heinz ,
Nepo Laulala ,
Tom Marshall ,
Richie McCaw ,
Johnny McNicholl ,
Joe Moody ,
Kieran Read,
Luke Romano,
Jeremy Su’a,
Jordan Taufua,
Codie Taylor,
Tom Taylor,
Matt Todd ,
Jimmy Tupou ,
Adam Whitelock ,
George Whitelock ,
Luke Whitelock ,
Sam Whitelock.2014:
Dominic Bird ,
Tyler Bleyendaal ,
Daniel Carter ,
Wyatt Crockett ,
Ryan Crotty ,
Israel Dagg ,
Mitchell Drummond ,
Andy Ellis ,
Corey Flynn ,
Owen Franks ,
Ben Funnell ,
Zac Guildford ,
Willi Heinz ,
Nepo Laulala ,
Rey Lee-Lo ,
Richie McCaw ,
Johnny McNicholl ,
Joe Moody ,
Nemani Nadolo ,
Tim Perry ,
Kieran Read ,
Luke Romano ,
Colin Slade ,
Jordan Taufua ,
Codie Taylor,
Tom Taylor,
Matt Todd ,
Jimmy Tupou,
Adam Whitelock ,
George Whitelock ,
Luke Whitelock ,
Sam Whitelock2015:
Forwards:
Ben Funnell
Codie Taylor
Ged Robinson
Wyatt Crockett
Owen Franks
Nepo Laulala
Joe Moody
Tim Perry
Luke Romano
Sam Whitelock
Domninic Bird
Jimmy Tupou
Scott Barrett
Richie McCaw
Kieran Read
Jordan Taufua
Matt Todd
Luke Whitelock.Backs:
Andy Ellis
Willi Heinz
Mitchell Drummond
Daniel Carter
Tom Taylor
Colin Slade
Ryan Crotty
Robbie Fruean
Kieran Fonotia
Johnny McNicholl
Joni Macilai
Nafi Tuitavake
Nemani Nadolo
Israel DaggBlackadder certainly had the stronger and more depth-laden forward packs, with essentially all of his All Black forwards and backs at the absolute peak of their playing careers (think Laulala, Dagg, Crotty, Read, Thorn, Jack, McCaw, Flynn, Ellis, Carter, Slade, Whitelock, Taylor, Romano, Bird, O.Franks, B.Franks, Crockett, Moody, Todd, etc.. and other internationals in their prime like a 137kg winger Nandolo, Kahn Fotuali'i, Sean Maitland, etc.. Robbie Fruean, Zac Gilford, SBW, Jared Payne.
Blackadder had far heavier backlines & forward packs than Razor, they should've absolutely smothered opposition sides, especially defensively. The weight difference compared to the current side is enormous.
The players left over that Razor did inherit in 2017 were getting past their best (Romano, Whitelock, Franks, Read, Crockett, Taylor, Funnell, Moody, Todd, Dagg, etc..) and by 2019 were well into their early or mid-30's. And that 2017 backline was the green AF, Mo'unga, Havili, Goodhue, Bridge, Hunt etc.. all babies and no X-factor & power in that backline except for Tamanivalu, while Dagg was 100 years old by then, and Hall & Havili were known as pretty average players at that point of time. He certainly extracted a lot more from his cattle than he's given credit for.
@kiwi_expat in that 2009 side there's fellas such as Thomas waldrom , Ross filipo, Bronson Murray & Jared Payne with Canterbury next to their names?
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@shark said in Chiefs vs Crusaders:
@kiwi_expat said in Chiefs vs Crusaders:
@crucial said in Chiefs vs Crusaders:
Too many mistakes tonight.
I said before the game it would be a battle of the coaches. Razor did well with tactics and we got Gatland to get his losing record going again.
The Crusaders cleaning up the penalties was the biggest difference from last week.
A coach who actually identifies problems and solves them... imagine that Fozzie?
Born from a much improved approach at the breakdown. A couple of their tries were born from lightning quick ball, which you just don't get against the Chiefs very often. They were first to the ruck on defence and on attack, even on the kick chase, they were able to get over the ball and then attack. They made a muck. The Chiefs defended hard and attacked with intent yet they couldn't hold onto the ball for more then five rucks. Razor implemented his gameplan to perfection tonight.
Crusaders missing Whitelock, Matera, Goodhue, McAllister, Ennor, Moody & others executed a very comprehensive win.
Well done Razor. Overtook Blackadder's wins as coach today after just 6 seasons. 87% win record - 23 higher than Blackadder & 14 higher than Robbie Deans (of whom had considerably stronger Crusader squads at their disposal including multiple GOAT's and all time franchise legends).
Very debatable point about which coaches had the strongest squads. Deans certainly had the deepest squads, most frontline AB talent, a good dose of razzle dazzle and a couple of the best ever guys in their positions. Blackadder inherited much of that but after 2011 had very little outside back talent most seasons and on top of that he was a terrible backline selector so we saw some shocking combinations.
2009:
Wyatt Crockett (Canterbury), Ben Franks ( Ta$man), Owen Franks (Canterbury), Bronson Murray (Canterbury), Corey Flynn (Canterbury), Jason Macdonald (Otago) (D), Brad Thorn ( Ta$man), Ross Filipo (Canterbury), Isaac Ross (Canterbury), Michael Paterson (Canterbury), Kieran Read (Canterbury), Richie McCaw (Canterbury), George Whitelock (Canterbury), Thomas Waldrom (Canterbury), Nasi Manu (Canterbury), Jonathan Poff ( Ta$man), Andy Ellis (Canterbury), Kahn Fotuali’I ( Ta$man), Colin Slade (Canterbury), Stephen Brett (Canterbury), Tim Bateman (Canterbury), Ryan Crotty (Canterbury), Casey Laulala (Canterbury), Adam Whitelock (Canterbury), Kade Poki ( Ta$man), Sean Maitland (Canterbury), Jared Payne (Canterbury)*, Leon MacDonald (Canterbury).
2010:
Wyatt Crockett, Owen Franks, Ben Franks, Peter Borlase**, Corey Flynn, Ti'i Paulo***, Brad Thorn, Isaac Ross, Chris Jack***, Sam Whitelock**, Kieran Read, Richie McCaw, George Whitelock, Jonathan Poff, Thomas Waldrom, Andy Ellis, Kahn Fotuali'i, Daniel Carter***, Daniel Bowden (D), Ryan Crotty, Tim Bateman, Robert Fruean**, Adam Whitelock, Sean Maitland, Kade Poki, Zac Guildford, Colin Slade, Jared Payne.
2011:
Matt Berquist,
Tyler Bleyendaal,
Dan Carter,
Wyatt Crockett,
Ryan Crotty,
Israel Dagg,
Andy Ellis,
Corey Flynn,
Kahn Fotuali’I,
Ben Franks,
Owen Franks,
Robbie Fruean,
Zac Guildford,
David Hall,
Willi Heinz,
Chris Jack,
Quentin MacDonald,
Sean Maitland,
Tom Marshall,
Richie McCaw,
Andrew Olorenshaw,
Jonathan Poff,
Kieran Read,
Luke Romano,
Brad Thorn,
Matt Todd,
Joe Wheeler,
Adam Whitelock,
George Whitelock,
Sam Whitelock,
Sonny Bill Williams.2012:
Richie McCaw
Nick Barrett
Tyler Bleyendaal
Dan Carter
Wyatt Crockett
Ryan Crotty
Israel Dagg
Tom Donnelly
Andrew Ellis
Corey Flynn
Ben Franks
Owen Franks
Robbie Fruean
Ben Funnell
Zac Guildford
Willi Heinz
Ross Kennedy
Quentin MacDonald
Sean Maitland
Tom Marshall
Patrick Osborne
Kieran Read
Luke Romano
Tom Taylor
Matt Todd
Joe Wheeler
Adam Whitelock
George Whitelock
Luke Whitelock
Sam Whitelock2013:
Dominic Bird ,
Tyler Bleyendaal ,
Dan Carter ,
Shane Christie ,
Wyatt Crockett ,
Ryan Crotty ,
Israel Dagg ,
Tom Donnelly ,
Andy Ellis ,
Corey Flynn ,
Owen Franks ,
Robbie Fruean ,
Ben Funnell ,
Zac Guildford ,
Willi Heinz ,
Nepo Laulala ,
Tom Marshall ,
Richie McCaw ,
Johnny McNicholl ,
Joe Moody ,
Kieran Read,
Luke Romano,
Jeremy Su’a,
Jordan Taufua,
Codie Taylor,
Tom Taylor,
Matt Todd ,
Jimmy Tupou ,
Adam Whitelock ,
George Whitelock ,
Luke Whitelock ,
Sam Whitelock.2014:
Dominic Bird ,
Tyler Bleyendaal ,
Daniel Carter ,
Wyatt Crockett ,
Ryan Crotty ,
Israel Dagg ,
Mitchell Drummond ,
Andy Ellis ,
Corey Flynn ,
Owen Franks ,
Ben Funnell ,
Zac Guildford ,
Willi Heinz ,
Nepo Laulala ,
Rey Lee-Lo ,
Richie McCaw ,
Johnny McNicholl ,
Joe Moody ,
Nemani Nadolo ,
Tim Perry ,
Kieran Read ,
Luke Romano ,
Colin Slade ,
Jordan Taufua ,
Codie Taylor,
Tom Taylor,
Matt Todd ,
Jimmy Tupou,
Adam Whitelock ,
George Whitelock ,
Luke Whitelock ,
Sam Whitelock2015:
Forwards:
Ben Funnell
Codie Taylor
Ged Robinson
Wyatt Crockett
Owen Franks
Nepo Laulala
Joe Moody
Tim Perry
Luke Romano
Sam Whitelock
Domninic Bird
Jimmy Tupou
Scott Barrett
Richie McCaw
Kieran Read
Jordan Taufua
Matt Todd
Luke Whitelock.Backs:
Andy Ellis
Willi Heinz
Mitchell Drummond
Daniel Carter
Tom Taylor
Colin Slade
Ryan Crotty
Robbie Fruean
Kieran Fonotia
Johnny McNicholl
Joni Macilai
Nafi Tuitavake
Nemani Nadolo
Israel DaggBlackadder certainly had the stronger and more depth-laden forward packs, with essentially all of his All Black forwards and backs at the absolute peak of their playing careers (think Laulala, Dagg, Crotty, Read, Thorn, Jack, McCaw, Flynn, Ellis, Carter, Slade, Whitelock, Taylor, Romano, Bird, O.Franks, B.Franks, Crockett, Moody, Todd, etc.. and other internationals in their prime like a 137kg winger Nandolo, Kahn Fotuali'i, Sean Maitland, etc.. Robbie Fruean, Zac Gilford, SBW, Jared Payne.
Blackadder had far heavier backlines & forward packs than Razor, they should've absolutely smothered opposition sides, especially defensively. The weight difference compared to the current side is enormous.
The players left over that Razor did inherit in 2017 were getting past their best (Romano, Whitelock, Franks, Read, Crockett, Taylor, Funnell, Moody, Todd, Dagg, etc..) and by 2019 were well into their early or mid-30's. And that 2017 backline was the green AF, Mo'unga, Havili, Goodhue, Bridge, Hunt etc.. all babies and no X-factor & power in that backline except for Tamanivalu, while Dagg was 100 years old by then, and Hall & Havili were known as pretty average players at that point of time. He certainly extracted a lot more from his cattle than he's given credit for.
@kiwi_expat said in Chiefs vs Crusaders:
@shark said in Chiefs vs Crusaders:
@kiwi_expat said in Chiefs vs Crusaders:
@crucial said in Chiefs vs Crusaders:
Too many mistakes tonight.
I said before the game it would be a battle of the coaches. Razor did well with tactics and we got Gatland to get his losing record going again.
The Crusaders cleaning up the penalties was the biggest difference from last week.
A coach who actually identifies problems and solves them... imagine that Fozzie?
Born from a much improved approach at the breakdown. A couple of their tries were born from lightning quick ball, which you just don't get against the Chiefs very often. They were first to the ruck on defence and on attack, even on the kick chase, they were able to get over the ball and then attack. They made a muck. The Chiefs defended hard and attacked with intent yet they couldn't hold onto the ball for more then five rucks. Razor implemented his gameplan to perfection tonight.
Crusaders missing Whitelock, Matera, Goodhue, McAllister, Ennor, Moody & others executed a very comprehensive win.
Well done Razor. Overtook Blackadder's wins as coach today after just 6 seasons. 87% win record - 23 higher than Blackadder & 14 higher than Robbie Deans (of whom had considerably stronger Crusader squads at their disposal including multiple GOAT's and all time franchise legends).
Very debatable point about which coaches had the strongest squads. Deans certainly had the deepest squads, most frontline AB talent, a good dose of razzle dazzle and a couple of the best ever guys in their positions. Blackadder inherited much of that but after 2011 had very little outside back talent most seasons and on top of that he was a terrible backline selector so we saw some shocking combinations.
2009:
Wyatt Crockett (Canterbury), Ben Franks ( Ta$man), Owen Franks (Canterbury), Bronson Murray (Canterbury), Corey Flynn (Canterbury), Jason Macdonald (Otago) (D), Brad Thorn ( Ta$man), Ross Filipo (Canterbury), Isaac Ross (Canterbury), Michael Paterson (Canterbury), Kieran Read (Canterbury), Richie McCaw (Canterbury), George Whitelock (Canterbury), Thomas Waldrom (Canterbury), Nasi Manu (Canterbury), Jonathan Poff ( Ta$man), Andy Ellis (Canterbury), Kahn Fotuali’I ( Ta$man), Colin Slade (Canterbury), Stephen Brett (Canterbury), Tim Bateman (Canterbury), Ryan Crotty (Canterbury), Casey Laulala (Canterbury), Adam Whitelock (Canterbury), Kade Poki ( Ta$man), Sean Maitland (Canterbury), Jared Payne (Canterbury)*, Leon MacDonald (Canterbury).
2010:
Wyatt Crockett, Owen Franks, Ben Franks, Peter Borlase**, Corey Flynn, Ti'i Paulo***, Brad Thorn, Isaac Ross, Chris Jack***, Sam Whitelock**, Kieran Read, Richie McCaw, George Whitelock, Jonathan Poff, Thomas Waldrom, Andy Ellis, Kahn Fotuali'i, Daniel Carter***, Daniel Bowden (D), Ryan Crotty, Tim Bateman, Robert Fruean**, Adam Whitelock, Sean Maitland, Kade Poki, Zac Guildford, Colin Slade, Jared Payne.
2011:
Matt Berquist,
Tyler Bleyendaal,
Dan Carter,
Wyatt Crockett,
Ryan Crotty,
Israel Dagg,
Andy Ellis,
Corey Flynn,
Kahn Fotuali’I,
Ben Franks,
Owen Franks,
Robbie Fruean,
Zac Guildford,
David Hall,
Willi Heinz,
Chris Jack,
Quentin MacDonald,
Sean Maitland,
Tom Marshall,
Richie McCaw,
Andrew Olorenshaw,
Jonathan Poff,
Kieran Read,
Luke Romano,
Brad Thorn,
Matt Todd,
Joe Wheeler,
Adam Whitelock,
George Whitelock,
Sam Whitelock,
Sonny Bill Williams.2012:
Richie McCaw
Nick Barrett
Tyler Bleyendaal
Dan Carter
Wyatt Crockett
Ryan Crotty
Israel Dagg
Tom Donnelly
Andrew Ellis
Corey Flynn
Ben Franks
Owen Franks
Robbie Fruean
Ben Funnell
Zac Guildford
Willi Heinz
Ross Kennedy
Quentin MacDonald
Sean Maitland
Tom Marshall
Patrick Osborne
Kieran Read
Luke Romano
Tom Taylor
Matt Todd
Joe Wheeler
Adam Whitelock
George Whitelock
Luke Whitelock
Sam Whitelock2013:
Dominic Bird ,
Tyler Bleyendaal ,
Dan Carter ,
Shane Christie ,
Wyatt Crockett ,
Ryan Crotty ,
Israel Dagg ,
Tom Donnelly ,
Andy Ellis ,
Corey Flynn ,
Owen Franks ,
Robbie Fruean ,
Ben Funnell ,
Zac Guildford ,
Willi Heinz ,
Nepo Laulala ,
Tom Marshall ,
Richie McCaw ,
Johnny McNicholl ,
Joe Moody ,
Kieran Read,
Luke Romano,
Jeremy Su’a,
Jordan Taufua,
Codie Taylor,
Tom Taylor,
Matt Todd ,
Jimmy Tupou ,
Adam Whitelock ,
George Whitelock ,
Luke Whitelock ,
Sam Whitelock.2014:
Dominic Bird ,
Tyler Bleyendaal ,
Daniel Carter ,
Wyatt Crockett ,
Ryan Crotty ,
Israel Dagg ,
Mitchell Drummond ,
Andy Ellis ,
Corey Flynn ,
Owen Franks ,
Ben Funnell ,
Zac Guildford ,
Willi Heinz ,
Nepo Laulala ,
Rey Lee-Lo ,
Richie McCaw ,
Johnny McNicholl ,
Joe Moody ,
Nemani Nadolo ,
Tim Perry ,
Kieran Read ,
Luke Romano ,
Colin Slade ,
Jordan Taufua ,
Codie Taylor,
Tom Taylor,
Matt Todd ,
Jimmy Tupou,
Adam Whitelock ,
George Whitelock ,
Luke Whitelock ,
Sam Whitelock2015:
Forwards:
Ben Funnell
Codie Taylor
Ged Robinson
Wyatt Crockett
Owen Franks
Nepo Laulala
Joe Moody
Tim Perry
Luke Romano
Sam Whitelock
Domninic Bird
Jimmy Tupou
Scott Barrett
Richie McCaw
Kieran Read
Jordan Taufua
Matt Todd
Luke Whitelock.Backs:
Andy Ellis
Willi Heinz
Mitchell Drummond
Daniel Carter
Tom Taylor
Colin Slade
Ryan Crotty
Robbie Fruean
Kieran Fonotia
Johnny McNicholl
Joni Macilai
Nafi Tuitavake
Nemani Nadolo
Israel DaggBlackadder certainly had the stronger and more depth-laden forward packs, with essentially all of his All Black forwards and backs at the absolute peak of their playing careers (think Laulala, Dagg, Crotty, Read, Thorn, McCaw, Flynn, Ellis, Carter, Slade, Whitelock, Taylor, Romano, Bird, O.Franks, B.Franks, Crockett, Moody, Todd and other internationals in their prime like a 137kg winger Nandolo, Kahn Fotuali'i, Sean Maitland, etc.. Robbie Fruean, Zac Gilford, SBW, Jared Payne.
Blackadder had far heavier backlines & forward packs than Razor, they should've absolutely smothered opposition sides, especially defensively. The weight difference compared to the current side is enormous.
The players left over that Razor did inherit in 2017 were getting past their best (Romano, Whitelock, Franks, Read, Crockett, Taylor, Funnell, Moody, Todd, Dagg, etc..) and by 2019 were well into their early or mid-30's. And that 2017 backline was the green AF, Mo'unga, Havili, Goodhue, Bridge, Hunt etc.. all babies and no X-factor & power in that backline except for Tamanivalu, while Dagg was 100 years old by then, and Hall & Havili were known as pretty average players at that point of time. He certainly extracted a lot more from his cattle than he's given credit for.
All I see is a bunch of journeymen, suitcases/backpacks, SWB’s, one game ABs mixed with the odd legend or two. Surprised we won as many games as we did let alone ‘ruin super rugby’
-
@kiwi_expat said in Chiefs vs Crusaders:
@shark said in Chiefs vs Crusaders:
@kiwi_expat said in Chiefs vs Crusaders:
@crucial said in Chiefs vs Crusaders:
Too many mistakes tonight.
I said before the game it would be a battle of the coaches. Razor did well with tactics and we got Gatland to get his losing record going again.
The Crusaders cleaning up the penalties was the biggest difference from last week.
A coach who actually identifies problems and solves them... imagine that Fozzie?
Born from a much improved approach at the breakdown. A couple of their tries were born from lightning quick ball, which you just don't get against the Chiefs very often. They were first to the ruck on defence and on attack, even on the kick chase, they were able to get over the ball and then attack. They made a muck. The Chiefs defended hard and attacked with intent yet they couldn't hold onto the ball for more then five rucks. Razor implemented his gameplan to perfection tonight.
Crusaders missing Whitelock, Matera, Goodhue, McAllister, Ennor, Moody & others executed a very comprehensive win.
Well done Razor. Overtook Blackadder's wins as coach today after just 6 seasons. 87% win record - 23 higher than Blackadder & 14 higher than Robbie Deans (of whom had considerably stronger Crusader squads at their disposal including multiple GOAT's and all time franchise legends).
Very debatable point about which coaches had the strongest squads. Deans certainly had the deepest squads, most frontline AB talent, a good dose of razzle dazzle and a couple of the best ever guys in their positions. Blackadder inherited much of that but after 2011 had very little outside back talent most seasons and on top of that he was a terrible backline selector so we saw some shocking combinations.
2009:
Wyatt Crockett (Canterbury), Ben Franks ( Ta$man), Owen Franks (Canterbury), Bronson Murray (Canterbury), Corey Flynn (Canterbury), Jason Macdonald (Otago) (D), Brad Thorn ( Ta$man), Ross Filipo (Canterbury), Isaac Ross (Canterbury), Michael Paterson (Canterbury), Kieran Read (Canterbury), Richie McCaw (Canterbury), George Whitelock (Canterbury), Thomas Waldrom (Canterbury), Nasi Manu (Canterbury), Jonathan Poff ( Ta$man), Andy Ellis (Canterbury), Kahn Fotuali’I ( Ta$man), Colin Slade (Canterbury), Stephen Brett (Canterbury), Tim Bateman (Canterbury), Ryan Crotty (Canterbury), Casey Laulala (Canterbury), Adam Whitelock (Canterbury), Kade Poki ( Ta$man), Sean Maitland (Canterbury), Jared Payne (Canterbury)*, Leon MacDonald (Canterbury).
2010:
Wyatt Crockett, Owen Franks, Ben Franks, Peter Borlase**, Corey Flynn, Ti'i Paulo***, Brad Thorn, Isaac Ross, Chris Jack***, Sam Whitelock**, Kieran Read, Richie McCaw, George Whitelock, Jonathan Poff, Thomas Waldrom, Andy Ellis, Kahn Fotuali'i, Daniel Carter***, Daniel Bowden (D), Ryan Crotty, Tim Bateman, Robert Fruean**, Adam Whitelock, Sean Maitland, Kade Poki, Zac Guildford, Colin Slade, Jared Payne.
2011:
Matt Berquist,
Tyler Bleyendaal,
Dan Carter,
Wyatt Crockett,
Ryan Crotty,
Israel Dagg,
Andy Ellis,
Corey Flynn,
Kahn Fotuali’I,
Ben Franks,
Owen Franks,
Robbie Fruean,
Zac Guildford,
David Hall,
Willi Heinz,
Chris Jack,
Quentin MacDonald,
Sean Maitland,
Tom Marshall,
Richie McCaw,
Andrew Olorenshaw,
Jonathan Poff,
Kieran Read,
Luke Romano,
Brad Thorn,
Matt Todd,
Joe Wheeler,
Adam Whitelock,
George Whitelock,
Sam Whitelock,
Sonny Bill Williams.2012:
Richie McCaw
Nick Barrett
Tyler Bleyendaal
Dan Carter
Wyatt Crockett
Ryan Crotty
Israel Dagg
Tom Donnelly
Andrew Ellis
Corey Flynn
Ben Franks
Owen Franks
Robbie Fruean
Ben Funnell
Zac Guildford
Willi Heinz
Ross Kennedy
Quentin MacDonald
Sean Maitland
Tom Marshall
Patrick Osborne
Kieran Read
Luke Romano
Tom Taylor
Matt Todd
Joe Wheeler
Adam Whitelock
George Whitelock
Luke Whitelock
Sam Whitelock2013:
Dominic Bird ,
Tyler Bleyendaal ,
Dan Carter ,
Shane Christie ,
Wyatt Crockett ,
Ryan Crotty ,
Israel Dagg ,
Tom Donnelly ,
Andy Ellis ,
Corey Flynn ,
Owen Franks ,
Robbie Fruean ,
Ben Funnell ,
Zac Guildford ,
Willi Heinz ,
Nepo Laulala ,
Tom Marshall ,
Richie McCaw ,
Johnny McNicholl ,
Joe Moody ,
Kieran Read,
Luke Romano,
Jeremy Su’a,
Jordan Taufua,
Codie Taylor,
Tom Taylor,
Matt Todd ,
Jimmy Tupou ,
Adam Whitelock ,
George Whitelock ,
Luke Whitelock ,
Sam Whitelock.2014:
Dominic Bird ,
Tyler Bleyendaal ,
Daniel Carter ,
Wyatt Crockett ,
Ryan Crotty ,
Israel Dagg ,
Mitchell Drummond ,
Andy Ellis ,
Corey Flynn ,
Owen Franks ,
Ben Funnell ,
Zac Guildford ,
Willi Heinz ,
Nepo Laulala ,
Rey Lee-Lo ,
Richie McCaw ,
Johnny McNicholl ,
Joe Moody ,
Nemani Nadolo ,
Tim Perry ,
Kieran Read ,
Luke Romano ,
Colin Slade ,
Jordan Taufua ,
Codie Taylor,
Tom Taylor,
Matt Todd ,
Jimmy Tupou,
Adam Whitelock ,
George Whitelock ,
Luke Whitelock ,
Sam Whitelock2015:
Forwards:
Ben Funnell
Codie Taylor
Ged Robinson
Wyatt Crockett
Owen Franks
Nepo Laulala
Joe Moody
Tim Perry
Luke Romano
Sam Whitelock
Domninic Bird
Jimmy Tupou
Scott Barrett
Richie McCaw
Kieran Read
Jordan Taufua
Matt Todd
Luke Whitelock.Backs:
Andy Ellis
Willi Heinz
Mitchell Drummond
Daniel Carter
Tom Taylor
Colin Slade
Ryan Crotty
Robbie Fruean
Kieran Fonotia
Johnny McNicholl
Joni Macilai
Nafi Tuitavake
Nemani Nadolo
Israel DaggBlackadder certainly had the stronger and more depth-laden forward packs, with essentially all of his All Black forwards and backs at the absolute peak of their playing careers (think Laulala, Dagg, Crotty, Read, Thorn, McCaw, Flynn, Ellis, Carter, Slade, Whitelock, Taylor, Romano, Bird, O.Franks, B.Franks, Crockett, Moody, Todd and other internationals in their prime like a 137kg winger Nandolo, Kahn Fotuali'i, Sean Maitland, etc.. Robbie Fruean, Zac Gilford, SBW, Jared Payne.
Blackadder had far heavier backlines & forward packs than Razor, they should've absolutely smothered opposition sides, especially defensively. The weight difference compared to the current side is enormous.
The players left over that Razor did inherit in 2017 were getting past their best (Romano, Whitelock, Franks, Read, Crockett, Taylor, Funnell, Moody, Todd, Dagg, etc..) and by 2019 were well into their early or mid-30's. And that 2017 backline was the green AF, Mo'unga, Havili, Goodhue, Bridge, Hunt etc.. all babies and no X-factor & power in that backline except for Tamanivalu, while Dagg was 100 years old by then, and Hall & Havili were known as pretty average players at that point of time. He certainly extracted a lot more from his cattle than he's given credit for.
All I see is a bunch of journeymen, suitcases/backpacks, SWB’s, one game ABs mixed with the odd legend or two. Surprised we won as many games as we did let alone ‘ruin super rugby’
@act-crusader said in Chiefs vs Crusaders:
@kiwi_expat said in Chiefs vs Crusaders:
@shark said in Chiefs vs Crusaders:
@kiwi_expat said in Chiefs vs Crusaders:
@crucial said in Chiefs vs Crusaders:
Too many mistakes tonight.
I said before the game it would be a battle of the coaches. Razor did well with tactics and we got Gatland to get his losing record going again.
The Crusaders cleaning up the penalties was the biggest difference from last week.
A coach who actually identifies problems and solves them... imagine that Fozzie?
Born from a much improved approach at the breakdown. A couple of their tries were born from lightning quick ball, which you just don't get against the Chiefs very often. They were first to the ruck on defence and on attack, even on the kick chase, they were able to get over the ball and then attack. They made a muck. The Chiefs defended hard and attacked with intent yet they couldn't hold onto the ball for more then five rucks. Razor implemented his gameplan to perfection tonight.
Crusaders missing Whitelock, Matera, Goodhue, McAllister, Ennor, Moody & others executed a very comprehensive win.
Well done Razor. Overtook Blackadder's wins as coach today after just 6 seasons. 87% win record - 23 higher than Blackadder & 14 higher than Robbie Deans (of whom had considerably stronger Crusader squads at their disposal including multiple GOAT's and all time franchise legends).
Very debatable point about which coaches had the strongest squads. Deans certainly had the deepest squads, most frontline AB talent, a good dose of razzle dazzle and a couple of the best ever guys in their positions. Blackadder inherited much of that but after 2011 had very little outside back talent most seasons and on top of that he was a terrible backline selector so we saw some shocking combinations.
2009:
Wyatt Crockett (Canterbury), Ben Franks ( Ta$man), Owen Franks (Canterbury), Bronson Murray (Canterbury), Corey Flynn (Canterbury), Jason Macdonald (Otago) (D), Brad Thorn ( Ta$man), Ross Filipo (Canterbury), Isaac Ross (Canterbury), Michael Paterson (Canterbury), Kieran Read (Canterbury), Richie McCaw (Canterbury), George Whitelock (Canterbury), Thomas Waldrom (Canterbury), Nasi Manu (Canterbury), Jonathan Poff ( Ta$man), Andy Ellis (Canterbury), Kahn Fotuali’I ( Ta$man), Colin Slade (Canterbury), Stephen Brett (Canterbury), Tim Bateman (Canterbury), Ryan Crotty (Canterbury), Casey Laulala (Canterbury), Adam Whitelock (Canterbury), Kade Poki ( Ta$man), Sean Maitland (Canterbury), Jared Payne (Canterbury)*, Leon MacDonald (Canterbury).
2010:
Wyatt Crockett, Owen Franks, Ben Franks, Peter Borlase**, Corey Flynn, Ti'i Paulo***, Brad Thorn, Isaac Ross, Chris Jack***, Sam Whitelock**, Kieran Read, Richie McCaw, George Whitelock, Jonathan Poff, Thomas Waldrom, Andy Ellis, Kahn Fotuali'i, Daniel Carter***, Daniel Bowden (D), Ryan Crotty, Tim Bateman, Robert Fruean**, Adam Whitelock, Sean Maitland, Kade Poki, Zac Guildford, Colin Slade, Jared Payne.
2011:
Matt Berquist,
Tyler Bleyendaal,
Dan Carter,
Wyatt Crockett,
Ryan Crotty,
Israel Dagg,
Andy Ellis,
Corey Flynn,
Kahn Fotuali’I,
Ben Franks,
Owen Franks,
Robbie Fruean,
Zac Guildford,
David Hall,
Willi Heinz,
Chris Jack,
Quentin MacDonald,
Sean Maitland,
Tom Marshall,
Richie McCaw,
Andrew Olorenshaw,
Jonathan Poff,
Kieran Read,
Luke Romano,
Brad Thorn,
Matt Todd,
Joe Wheeler,
Adam Whitelock,
George Whitelock,
Sam Whitelock,
Sonny Bill Williams.2012:
Richie McCaw
Nick Barrett
Tyler Bleyendaal
Dan Carter
Wyatt Crockett
Ryan Crotty
Israel Dagg
Tom Donnelly
Andrew Ellis
Corey Flynn
Ben Franks
Owen Franks
Robbie Fruean
Ben Funnell
Zac Guildford
Willi Heinz
Ross Kennedy
Quentin MacDonald
Sean Maitland
Tom Marshall
Patrick Osborne
Kieran Read
Luke Romano
Tom Taylor
Matt Todd
Joe Wheeler
Adam Whitelock
George Whitelock
Luke Whitelock
Sam Whitelock2013:
Dominic Bird ,
Tyler Bleyendaal ,
Dan Carter ,
Shane Christie ,
Wyatt Crockett ,
Ryan Crotty ,
Israel Dagg ,
Tom Donnelly ,
Andy Ellis ,
Corey Flynn ,
Owen Franks ,
Robbie Fruean ,
Ben Funnell ,
Zac Guildford ,
Willi Heinz ,
Nepo Laulala ,
Tom Marshall ,
Richie McCaw ,
Johnny McNicholl ,
Joe Moody ,
Kieran Read,
Luke Romano,
Jeremy Su’a,
Jordan Taufua,
Codie Taylor,
Tom Taylor,
Matt Todd ,
Jimmy Tupou ,
Adam Whitelock ,
George Whitelock ,
Luke Whitelock ,
Sam Whitelock.2014:
Dominic Bird ,
Tyler Bleyendaal ,
Daniel Carter ,
Wyatt Crockett ,
Ryan Crotty ,
Israel Dagg ,
Mitchell Drummond ,
Andy Ellis ,
Corey Flynn ,
Owen Franks ,
Ben Funnell ,
Zac Guildford ,
Willi Heinz ,
Nepo Laulala ,
Rey Lee-Lo ,
Richie McCaw ,
Johnny McNicholl ,
Joe Moody ,
Nemani Nadolo ,
Tim Perry ,
Kieran Read ,
Luke Romano ,
Colin Slade ,
Jordan Taufua ,
Codie Taylor,
Tom Taylor,
Matt Todd ,
Jimmy Tupou,
Adam Whitelock ,
George Whitelock ,
Luke Whitelock ,
Sam Whitelock2015:
Forwards:
Ben Funnell
Codie Taylor
Ged Robinson
Wyatt Crockett
Owen Franks
Nepo Laulala
Joe Moody
Tim Perry
Luke Romano
Sam Whitelock
Domninic Bird
Jimmy Tupou
Scott Barrett
Richie McCaw
Kieran Read
Jordan Taufua
Matt Todd
Luke Whitelock.Backs:
Andy Ellis
Willi Heinz
Mitchell Drummond
Daniel Carter
Tom Taylor
Colin Slade
Ryan Crotty
Robbie Fruean
Kieran Fonotia
Johnny McNicholl
Joni Macilai
Nafi Tuitavake
Nemani Nadolo
Israel DaggBlackadder certainly had the stronger and more depth-laden forward packs, with essentially all of his All Black forwards and backs at the absolute peak of their playing careers (think Laulala, Dagg, Crotty, Read, Thorn, McCaw, Flynn, Ellis, Carter, Slade, Whitelock, Taylor, Romano, Bird, O.Franks, B.Franks, Crockett, Moody, Todd and other internationals in their prime like a 137kg winger Nandolo, Kahn Fotuali'i, Sean Maitland, etc.. Robbie Fruean, Zac Gilford, SBW, Jared Payne.
Blackadder had far heavier backlines & forward packs than Razor, they should've absolutely smothered opposition sides, especially defensively. The weight difference compared to the current side is enormous.
The players left over that Razor did inherit in 2017 were getting past their best (Romano, Whitelock, Franks, Read, Crockett, Taylor, Funnell, Moody, Todd, Dagg, etc..) and by 2019 were well into their early or mid-30's. And that 2017 backline was the green AF, Mo'unga, Havili, Goodhue, Bridge, Hunt etc.. all babies and no X-factor & power in that backline except for Tamanivalu, while Dagg was 100 years old by then, and Hall & Havili were known as pretty average players at that point of time. He certainly extracted a lot more from his cattle than he's given credit for.
All I see is a bunch of journeymen, suitcases/backpacks, SWB’s, one game ABs mixed with the odd legend or two. Surprised we won as many games as we did let alone ‘ruin super rugby’
Not to mention one of the most incredible responses to an earthquake in the local area, or getting robbed in the final in Sydney.
Just fucking journeymen.
-
For the life of me I cannot recall Jonathan Poff
@nevorian said in Chiefs vs Crusaders:
For the life of me I cannot recall Jonathan Poff
Openside flanker, originally from Canterbury then played for Ta$man.
-
@shark said in Chiefs vs Crusaders:
@kiwi_expat said in Chiefs vs Crusaders:
@crucial said in Chiefs vs Crusaders:
Too many mistakes tonight.
I said before the game it would be a battle of the coaches. Razor did well with tactics and we got Gatland to get his losing record going again.
The Crusaders cleaning up the penalties was the biggest difference from last week.
A coach who actually identifies problems and solves them... imagine that Fozzie?
Born from a much improved approach at the breakdown. A couple of their tries were born from lightning quick ball, which you just don't get against the Chiefs very often. They were first to the ruck on defence and on attack, even on the kick chase, they were able to get over the ball and then attack. They made a muck. The Chiefs defended hard and attacked with intent yet they couldn't hold onto the ball for more then five rucks. Razor implemented his gameplan to perfection tonight.
Crusaders missing Whitelock, Matera, Goodhue, McAllister, Ennor, Moody & others executed a very comprehensive win.
Well done Razor. Overtook Blackadder's wins as coach today after just 6 seasons. 87% win record - 23 higher than Blackadder & 14 higher than Robbie Deans (of whom had considerably stronger Crusader squads at their disposal including multiple GOAT's and all time franchise legends).
Very debatable point about which coaches had the strongest squads. Deans certainly had the deepest squads, most frontline AB talent, a good dose of razzle dazzle and a couple of the best ever guys in their positions. Blackadder inherited much of that but after 2011 had very little outside back talent most seasons and on top of that he was a terrible backline selector so we saw some shocking combinations.
2009:
Wyatt Crockett (Canterbury), Ben Franks ( Ta$man), Owen Franks (Canterbury), Bronson Murray (Canterbury), Corey Flynn (Canterbury), Jason Macdonald (Otago) (D), Brad Thorn ( Ta$man), Ross Filipo (Canterbury), Isaac Ross (Canterbury), Michael Paterson (Canterbury), Kieran Read (Canterbury), Richie McCaw (Canterbury), George Whitelock (Canterbury), Thomas Waldrom (Canterbury), Nasi Manu (Canterbury), Jonathan Poff ( Ta$man), Andy Ellis (Canterbury), Kahn Fotuali’I ( Ta$man), Colin Slade (Canterbury), Stephen Brett (Canterbury), Tim Bateman (Canterbury), Ryan Crotty (Canterbury), Casey Laulala (Canterbury), Adam Whitelock (Canterbury), Kade Poki ( Ta$man), Sean Maitland (Canterbury), Jared Payne (Canterbury)*, Leon MacDonald (Canterbury).
2010:
Wyatt Crockett, Owen Franks, Ben Franks, Peter Borlase**, Corey Flynn, Ti'i Paulo***, Brad Thorn, Isaac Ross, Chris Jack***, Sam Whitelock**, Kieran Read, Richie McCaw, George Whitelock, Jonathan Poff, Thomas Waldrom, Andy Ellis, Kahn Fotuali'i, Daniel Carter***, Daniel Bowden (D), Ryan Crotty, Tim Bateman, Robert Fruean**, Adam Whitelock, Sean Maitland, Kade Poki, Zac Guildford, Colin Slade, Jared Payne.
2011:
Matt Berquist,
Tyler Bleyendaal,
Dan Carter,
Wyatt Crockett,
Ryan Crotty,
Israel Dagg,
Andy Ellis,
Corey Flynn,
Kahn Fotuali’I,
Ben Franks,
Owen Franks,
Robbie Fruean,
Zac Guildford,
David Hall,
Willi Heinz,
Chris Jack,
Quentin MacDonald,
Sean Maitland,
Tom Marshall,
Richie McCaw,
Andrew Olorenshaw,
Jonathan Poff,
Kieran Read,
Luke Romano,
Brad Thorn,
Matt Todd,
Joe Wheeler,
Adam Whitelock,
George Whitelock,
Sam Whitelock,
Sonny Bill Williams.2012:
Richie McCaw
Nick Barrett
Tyler Bleyendaal
Dan Carter
Wyatt Crockett
Ryan Crotty
Israel Dagg
Tom Donnelly
Andrew Ellis
Corey Flynn
Ben Franks
Owen Franks
Robbie Fruean
Ben Funnell
Zac Guildford
Willi Heinz
Ross Kennedy
Quentin MacDonald
Sean Maitland
Tom Marshall
Patrick Osborne
Kieran Read
Luke Romano
Tom Taylor
Matt Todd
Joe Wheeler
Adam Whitelock
George Whitelock
Luke Whitelock
Sam Whitelock2013:
Dominic Bird ,
Tyler Bleyendaal ,
Dan Carter ,
Shane Christie ,
Wyatt Crockett ,
Ryan Crotty ,
Israel Dagg ,
Tom Donnelly ,
Andy Ellis ,
Corey Flynn ,
Owen Franks ,
Robbie Fruean ,
Ben Funnell ,
Zac Guildford ,
Willi Heinz ,
Nepo Laulala ,
Tom Marshall ,
Richie McCaw ,
Johnny McNicholl ,
Joe Moody ,
Kieran Read,
Luke Romano,
Jeremy Su’a,
Jordan Taufua,
Codie Taylor,
Tom Taylor,
Matt Todd ,
Jimmy Tupou ,
Adam Whitelock ,
George Whitelock ,
Luke Whitelock ,
Sam Whitelock.2014:
Dominic Bird ,
Tyler Bleyendaal ,
Daniel Carter ,
Wyatt Crockett ,
Ryan Crotty ,
Israel Dagg ,
Mitchell Drummond ,
Andy Ellis ,
Corey Flynn ,
Owen Franks ,
Ben Funnell ,
Zac Guildford ,
Willi Heinz ,
Nepo Laulala ,
Rey Lee-Lo ,
Richie McCaw ,
Johnny McNicholl ,
Joe Moody ,
Nemani Nadolo ,
Tim Perry ,
Kieran Read ,
Luke Romano ,
Colin Slade ,
Jordan Taufua ,
Codie Taylor,
Tom Taylor,
Matt Todd ,
Jimmy Tupou,
Adam Whitelock ,
George Whitelock ,
Luke Whitelock ,
Sam Whitelock2015:
Forwards:
Ben Funnell
Codie Taylor
Ged Robinson
Wyatt Crockett
Owen Franks
Nepo Laulala
Joe Moody
Tim Perry
Luke Romano
Sam Whitelock
Domninic Bird
Jimmy Tupou
Scott Barrett
Richie McCaw
Kieran Read
Jordan Taufua
Matt Todd
Luke Whitelock.Backs:
Andy Ellis
Willi Heinz
Mitchell Drummond
Daniel Carter
Tom Taylor
Colin Slade
Ryan Crotty
Robbie Fruean
Kieran Fonotia
Johnny McNicholl
Joni Macilai
Nafi Tuitavake
Nemani Nadolo
Israel DaggBlackadder certainly had the stronger and more depth-laden forward packs, with essentially all of his All Black forwards and backs at the absolute peak of their playing careers (think Laulala, Dagg, Crotty, Read, Thorn, Jack, McCaw, Flynn, Ellis, Carter, Slade, Whitelock, Taylor, Romano, Bird, O.Franks, B.Franks, Crockett, Moody, Todd, etc.. and other internationals in their prime like a 137kg winger Nandolo, Kahn Fotuali'i, Sean Maitland, etc.. Robbie Fruean, Zac Gilford, SBW, Jared Payne.
Blackadder had far heavier backlines & forward packs than Razor, they should've absolutely smothered opposition sides, especially defensively. The weight difference compared to the current side is enormous.
The players left over that Razor did inherit in 2017 were getting past their best (Romano, Whitelock, Franks, Read, Crockett, Taylor, Funnell, Moody, Todd, Dagg, etc..) and by 2019 were well into their early or mid-30's. And that 2017 backline was the green AF, Mo'unga, Havili, Goodhue, Bridge, Hunt etc.. all babies and no X-factor & power in that backline except for Tamanivalu, while Dagg was 100 years old by then, and Hall & Havili were known as pretty average players at that point of time. He certainly extracted a lot more from his cattle than he's given credit for.
@kiwi_expat hard to know what point you're trying to make there?
I think when you look through those Smallbladder squads and start putting together outside back combinations and cover from 13 out, you definitely see a lack of threats and depth.
In 2017 Robertson's top backline would have been Drummond/Hall, Mo'unga, Crotty, Goodhue, Tamanivalu, Dagg and Havili'i. Super safe and efficient at 9, breakthrough years for Mo'unga and Havili'i, Crotty at his peak bossing the whole show, dangerous wings and an emerging Goodhue. It's a pretty handy unit and I'm pretty sure I'd take those three-quarters and fullback over any combination Blackadder could muster after 2011.
-
@kiwi_expat hard to know what point you're trying to make there?
I think when you look through those Smallbladder squads and start putting together outside back combinations and cover from 13 out, you definitely see a lack of threats and depth.
In 2017 Robertson's top backline would have been Drummond/Hall, Mo'unga, Crotty, Goodhue, Tamanivalu, Dagg and Havili'i. Super safe and efficient at 9, breakthrough years for Mo'unga and Havili'i, Crotty at his peak bossing the whole show, dangerous wings and an emerging Goodhue. It's a pretty handy unit and I'm pretty sure I'd take those three-quarters and fullback over any combination Blackadder could muster after 2011.
@shark said in Chiefs vs Crusaders:
@kiwi_expat hard to know what point you're trying to make there?
I think when you look through those Smallbladder squads and start putting together outside back combinations and cover from 13 out, you definitely see a lack of threats and depth.
Your problem is that you are not starting from the appropriate conclusion, from which you can work backwards to justify your point.
-
@nevorian said in Chiefs vs Crusaders:
For the life of me I cannot recall Jonathan Poff
Maori bogan looking dude from Ta$man.
Re: The differences between squads.
I don't think you can compare current with past squads as we have no idea where a player is in their life cycle. We can't really know until all the teams are in the past.
@nepia said in Chiefs vs Crusaders:
@nevorian said in Chiefs vs Crusaders:
For the life of me I cannot recall Jonathan Poff
Maori bogan looking dude from Ta$man.
Re: The differences between squads.
I don't think you can compare current with past squads as we have no idea where a player is in their life cycle. We can't really know until all the teams are in the past.
And that last paragraph is also a good point. Add to that the overall depth of the comp at various stages.
-
Think I get what Crowley is talking about now.
Two things were very predictable here
- Crusaders to show their class and bounce back
- Few of their fans to act like the whole world said they were the worst rugby team ever and act like complete dickheads.
Boring.
-
@act-crusader said in Chiefs vs Crusaders:
@kiwi_expat said in Chiefs vs Crusaders:
@shark said in Chiefs vs Crusaders:
@kiwi_expat said in Chiefs vs Crusaders:
@crucial said in Chiefs vs Crusaders:
Too many mistakes tonight.
I said before the game it would be a battle of the coaches. Razor did well with tactics and we got Gatland to get his losing record going again.
The Crusaders cleaning up the penalties was the biggest difference from last week.
A coach who actually identifies problems and solves them... imagine that Fozzie?
Born from a much improved approach at the breakdown. A couple of their tries were born from lightning quick ball, which you just don't get against the Chiefs very often. They were first to the ruck on defence and on attack, even on the kick chase, they were able to get over the ball and then attack. They made a muck. The Chiefs defended hard and attacked with intent yet they couldn't hold onto the ball for more then five rucks. Razor implemented his gameplan to perfection tonight.
Crusaders missing Whitelock, Matera, Goodhue, McAllister, Ennor, Moody & others executed a very comprehensive win.
Well done Razor. Overtook Blackadder's wins as coach today after just 6 seasons. 87% win record - 23 higher than Blackadder & 14 higher than Robbie Deans (of whom had considerably stronger Crusader squads at their disposal including multiple GOAT's and all time franchise legends).
Very debatable point about which coaches had the strongest squads. Deans certainly had the deepest squads, most frontline AB talent, a good dose of razzle dazzle and a couple of the best ever guys in their positions. Blackadder inherited much of that but after 2011 had very little outside back talent most seasons and on top of that he was a terrible backline selector so we saw some shocking combinations.
2009:
Wyatt Crockett (Canterbury), Ben Franks ( Ta$man), Owen Franks (Canterbury), Bronson Murray (Canterbury), Corey Flynn (Canterbury), Jason Macdonald (Otago) (D), Brad Thorn ( Ta$man), Ross Filipo (Canterbury), Isaac Ross (Canterbury), Michael Paterson (Canterbury), Kieran Read (Canterbury), Richie McCaw (Canterbury), George Whitelock (Canterbury), Thomas Waldrom (Canterbury), Nasi Manu (Canterbury), Jonathan Poff ( Ta$man), Andy Ellis (Canterbury), Kahn Fotuali’I ( Ta$man), Colin Slade (Canterbury), Stephen Brett (Canterbury), Tim Bateman (Canterbury), Ryan Crotty (Canterbury), Casey Laulala (Canterbury), Adam Whitelock (Canterbury), Kade Poki ( Ta$man), Sean Maitland (Canterbury), Jared Payne (Canterbury)*, Leon MacDonald (Canterbury).
2010:
Wyatt Crockett, Owen Franks, Ben Franks, Peter Borlase**, Corey Flynn, Ti'i Paulo***, Brad Thorn, Isaac Ross, Chris Jack***, Sam Whitelock**, Kieran Read, Richie McCaw, George Whitelock, Jonathan Poff, Thomas Waldrom, Andy Ellis, Kahn Fotuali'i, Daniel Carter***, Daniel Bowden (D), Ryan Crotty, Tim Bateman, Robert Fruean**, Adam Whitelock, Sean Maitland, Kade Poki, Zac Guildford, Colin Slade, Jared Payne.
2011:
Matt Berquist,
Tyler Bleyendaal,
Dan Carter,
Wyatt Crockett,
Ryan Crotty,
Israel Dagg,
Andy Ellis,
Corey Flynn,
Kahn Fotuali’I,
Ben Franks,
Owen Franks,
Robbie Fruean,
Zac Guildford,
David Hall,
Willi Heinz,
Chris Jack,
Quentin MacDonald,
Sean Maitland,
Tom Marshall,
Richie McCaw,
Andrew Olorenshaw,
Jonathan Poff,
Kieran Read,
Luke Romano,
Brad Thorn,
Matt Todd,
Joe Wheeler,
Adam Whitelock,
George Whitelock,
Sam Whitelock,
Sonny Bill Williams.2012:
Richie McCaw
Nick Barrett
Tyler Bleyendaal
Dan Carter
Wyatt Crockett
Ryan Crotty
Israel Dagg
Tom Donnelly
Andrew Ellis
Corey Flynn
Ben Franks
Owen Franks
Robbie Fruean
Ben Funnell
Zac Guildford
Willi Heinz
Ross Kennedy
Quentin MacDonald
Sean Maitland
Tom Marshall
Patrick Osborne
Kieran Read
Luke Romano
Tom Taylor
Matt Todd
Joe Wheeler
Adam Whitelock
George Whitelock
Luke Whitelock
Sam Whitelock2013:
Dominic Bird ,
Tyler Bleyendaal ,
Dan Carter ,
Shane Christie ,
Wyatt Crockett ,
Ryan Crotty ,
Israel Dagg ,
Tom Donnelly ,
Andy Ellis ,
Corey Flynn ,
Owen Franks ,
Robbie Fruean ,
Ben Funnell ,
Zac Guildford ,
Willi Heinz ,
Nepo Laulala ,
Tom Marshall ,
Richie McCaw ,
Johnny McNicholl ,
Joe Moody ,
Kieran Read,
Luke Romano,
Jeremy Su’a,
Jordan Taufua,
Codie Taylor,
Tom Taylor,
Matt Todd ,
Jimmy Tupou ,
Adam Whitelock ,
George Whitelock ,
Luke Whitelock ,
Sam Whitelock.2014:
Dominic Bird ,
Tyler Bleyendaal ,
Daniel Carter ,
Wyatt Crockett ,
Ryan Crotty ,
Israel Dagg ,
Mitchell Drummond ,
Andy Ellis ,
Corey Flynn ,
Owen Franks ,
Ben Funnell ,
Zac Guildford ,
Willi Heinz ,
Nepo Laulala ,
Rey Lee-Lo ,
Richie McCaw ,
Johnny McNicholl ,
Joe Moody ,
Nemani Nadolo ,
Tim Perry ,
Kieran Read ,
Luke Romano ,
Colin Slade ,
Jordan Taufua ,
Codie Taylor,
Tom Taylor,
Matt Todd ,
Jimmy Tupou,
Adam Whitelock ,
George Whitelock ,
Luke Whitelock ,
Sam Whitelock2015:
Forwards:
Ben Funnell
Codie Taylor
Ged Robinson
Wyatt Crockett
Owen Franks
Nepo Laulala
Joe Moody
Tim Perry
Luke Romano
Sam Whitelock
Domninic Bird
Jimmy Tupou
Scott Barrett
Richie McCaw
Kieran Read
Jordan Taufua
Matt Todd
Luke Whitelock.Backs:
Andy Ellis
Willi Heinz
Mitchell Drummond
Daniel Carter
Tom Taylor
Colin Slade
Ryan Crotty
Robbie Fruean
Kieran Fonotia
Johnny McNicholl
Joni Macilai
Nafi Tuitavake
Nemani Nadolo
Israel DaggBlackadder certainly had the stronger and more depth-laden forward packs, with essentially all of his All Black forwards and backs at the absolute peak of their playing careers (think Laulala, Dagg, Crotty, Read, Thorn, McCaw, Flynn, Ellis, Carter, Slade, Whitelock, Taylor, Romano, Bird, O.Franks, B.Franks, Crockett, Moody, Todd and other internationals in their prime like a 137kg winger Nandolo, Kahn Fotuali'i, Sean Maitland, etc.. Robbie Fruean, Zac Gilford, SBW, Jared Payne.
Blackadder had far heavier backlines & forward packs than Razor, they should've absolutely smothered opposition sides, especially defensively. The weight difference compared to the current side is enormous.
The players left over that Razor did inherit in 2017 were getting past their best (Romano, Whitelock, Franks, Read, Crockett, Taylor, Funnell, Moody, Todd, Dagg, etc..) and by 2019 were well into their early or mid-30's. And that 2017 backline was the green AF, Mo'unga, Havili, Goodhue, Bridge, Hunt etc.. all babies and no X-factor & power in that backline except for Tamanivalu, while Dagg was 100 years old by then, and Hall & Havili were known as pretty average players at that point of time. He certainly extracted a lot more from his cattle than he's given credit for.
All I see is a bunch of journeymen, suitcases/backpacks, SWB’s, one game ABs mixed with the odd legend or two. Surprised we won as many games as we did let alone ‘ruin super rugby’
Not to mention one of the most incredible responses to an earthquake in the local area, or getting robbed in the final in Sydney.
Just fucking journeymen.
@gt12 said in Chiefs vs Crusaders:
Not to mention one of the most incredible responses to an earthquake in the local area, or getting robbed in the final in Sydney.
Who really gives a damn? They had plenty of opportunities to win those finals in 2011/2014 and chocked it away, mentality and tactically were shocking on both occasions, the facts are Blackadder failed to win any of the contests that mattered after 9 long seasons with the best squad in Super Rugby by a significant margin, they were tactically embarrassing resembling Foster's All Blacks in 2021, Slackbladder boasts a lowly win-rate of 63% compared to Razor's 87%, and Razor hasn't lost a single knockout match during his 6 year tenure, he specializes in getting his side up for winning the big matches, the only ones that actually matter in the end...
-
@crazy-horse said in Chiefs vs Crusaders:
While I am not conceding the Saders get the rub of the green with refs
, @Crucial is right. Champion teams and Champion individuals do benefit. For example, LeBron James is often referenced on here for getting calls going his way because of who he is.I might cop some flack for this from the Village of the Damned but after a partial rewatch (I have reports I need to write for an Academic Board so I'm procrastinating) I do think the calls went the Crusaders way last night and I do think Razor made an astute tactical decision that capitalised on it.
Firstly, in the second half there were 3 rucks in about 2 minutes where first Nankivell, then Ah Koi, and then Nankivell again went for the ball, the Crusaders held it and it was play on. These were no different than what Christie was getting rewarded for. (Not sure how often it was happening in the rest of the game as I just remembered noticing it last night so went back to it). I think this is the champion team benefitting as you and @Crucial say.
To the coaching. In the first 20 minutes at lots of rucks a Crusaders player went for the ball, and dived forward for it, so that even if they didn't get the ball they spilling over past the ruck and were getting in the way of the Chiefs clearance. I think this was a masterstroke by Razor as it tested the ref, the ref did nothing about it, so therefore the rucks became a free for all. The Crusaders adjusted to this and the Chiefs didn't and regularly didn't get enough numbers over the ball. As a Chiefs fan obviously this pisses me off, but I think it's great coaching by Razor.
@nepia said in Chiefs vs Crusaders:
@crazy-horse said in Chiefs vs Crusaders:
While I am not conceding the Saders get the rub of the green with refs
, @Crucial is right. Champion teams and Champion individuals do benefit. For example, LeBron James is often referenced on here for getting calls going his way because of who he is.I might cop some flack for this from the Village of the Damned but after a partial rewatch (I have reports I need to write for an Academic Board so I'm procrastinating) I do think the calls went the Crusaders way last night and I do think Razor made an astute tactical decision that capitalised on it.
Firstly, in the second half there were 3 rucks in about 2 minutes where first Nankivell, then Ah Koi, and then Nankivell again went for the ball, the Crusaders held it and it was play on. These were no different than what Christie was getting rewarded for. (Not sure how often it was happening in the rest of the game as I just remembered noticing it last night so went back to it). I think this is the champion team benefitting as you and @Crucial say.
To the coaching. In the first 20 minutes at lots of rucks a Crusaders player went for the ball, and dived forward for it, so that even if they didn't get the ball they spilling over past the ruck and were getting in the way of the Chiefs clearance. I think this was a masterstroke by Razor as it tested the ref, the ref did nothing about it, so therefore the rucks became a free for all. The Crusaders adjusted to this and the Chiefs didn't and regularly didn't get enough numbers over the ball. As a Chiefs fan obviously this pisses me off, but I think it's great coaching by Razor.
The Crusaders played smart, intelligent and at times, brutal and physically implemented rugby in those first 40 minutes. They kept on song with their game plan, to turn the Chiefs around and attack every ruck and kick, that they chased. It was a masterpiece of playing basic, front-foot rugby.
Their approach to mix their kicking game, to mix their runners with the ball, to attack every ruck, to ensure parity in the lineout and scrum, to go forward with ball in hand both close-in and out-wide, in my eyes, just made the Chiefs look somewhat pedestrian, in that first 40 minutes.
It's time for Wales or England to poach Razor. His coaching made a quality side like the Chiefs look very average. Not to mention outcoaching an erroneously stacked with talent Blues outfit to recent 43-23 & 29-6 bonus point defeats during the 2021 season. He's wasting his time waiting for NZR given they're likely to extend Foster past 2023 or appoint Plumtree. Razor owes NZ Rugby nothing.
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@gt12 said in Chiefs vs Crusaders:
Not to mention one of the most incredible responses to an earthquake in the local area, or getting robbed in the final in Sydney.
Who really gives a damn? They had plenty of opportunities to win those finals in 2011/2014 and chocked it away, mentality and tactically were shocking on both occasions, the facts are Blackadder failed to win any of the contests that mattered after 9 long seasons with the best squad in Super Rugby by a significant margin, they were tactically embarrassing resembling Foster's All Blacks in 2021, Slackbladder boasts a lowly win-rate of 63% compared to Razor's 87%, and Razor hasn't lost a single knockout match during his 6 year tenure, he specializes in getting his side up for winning the big matches, the only ones that actually matter in the end...
@kiwi_expat said in Chiefs vs Crusaders:
@gt12 said in Chiefs vs Crusaders:
Not to mention one of the most incredible responses to an earthquake in the local area, or getting robbed in the final in Sydney.
Who really gives a damn? They had plenty of opportunities to win those finals in 2011/2014 and chocked it away, mentality and tactically were shocking on both occasions, the facts are Blackadder failed to win any of the contests that mattered after 9 long seasons with the best squad in Super Rugby by a significant margin, they were tactically embarrassing resembling Foster's All Blacks in 2021, Slackbladder boasts a lowly win-rate of 63% compared to Razor's 87%, and Razor hasn't lost a single knockout match during his 6 year tenure, he specializes in getting his side up for winning the big matches, the only ones that matter at the end.
Should have won in 2014. Lost due to an incorrectly awarded penalty goal at the death. How the fuck we got there though I will never really know. Outplayed / ran out of legs in 2011 and can be forgiven for that considering the circumstances.
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Think I get what Crowley is talking about now.
Two things were very predictable here
- Crusaders to show their class and bounce back
- Few of their fans to act like the whole world said they were the worst rugby team ever and act like complete dickheads.
Boring.
@majorrage said in Chiefs vs Crusaders:
Think I get what Crowley is talking about now.
Two things were very predictable here
- Crusaders to show their class and bounce back
- Few of their fans to act like the whole world said they were the worst rugby team ever and act like complete dickheads.
Boring.
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@kiwi_expat said in Chiefs vs Crusaders:
@gt12 said in Chiefs vs Crusaders:
Not to mention one of the most incredible responses to an earthquake in the local area, or getting robbed in the final in Sydney.
Who really gives a damn? They had plenty of opportunities to win those finals in 2011/2014 and chocked it away, mentality and tactically were shocking on both occasions, the facts are Blackadder failed to win any of the contests that mattered after 9 long seasons with the best squad in Super Rugby by a significant margin, they were tactically embarrassing resembling Foster's All Blacks in 2021, Slackbladder boasts a lowly win-rate of 63% compared to Razor's 87%, and Razor hasn't lost a single knockout match during his 6 year tenure, he specializes in getting his side up for winning the big matches, the only ones that matter at the end.
Should have won in 2014. Lost due to an incorrectly awarded penalty goal at the death. How the fuck we got there though I will never really know. Outplayed / ran out of legs in 2011 and can be forgiven for that considering the circumstances.
@shark said in Chiefs vs Crusaders:
@kiwi_expat said in Chiefs vs Crusaders:
@gt12 said in Chiefs vs Crusaders:
Not to mention one of the most incredible responses to an earthquake in the local area, or getting robbed in the final in Sydney.
Who really gives a damn? They had plenty of opportunities to win those finals in 2011/2014 and chocked it away, mentality and tactically were shocking on both occasions, the facts are Blackadder failed to win any of the contests that mattered after 9 long seasons with the best squad in Super Rugby by a significant margin, they were tactically embarrassing resembling Foster's All Blacks in 2021, Slackbladder boasts a lowly win-rate of 63% compared to Razor's 87%, and Razor hasn't lost a single knockout match during his 6 year tenure, he specializes in getting his side up for winning the big matches, the only ones that matter at the end.
Should have won in 2014. Lost due to an incorrectly awarded penalty goal at the death.
Blackadder lost 5 games during the 2014 season, which is more than Razor lost across his first 3 seasons.
And Nemani Nadolo's foot was in touch, so Waratahs probably deserved to win by four points anyway.
Ultimately his Crusaders failed to front when it mattered & were consigned to their 6th defeat of 2014.
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can we start a thread for the fucking Crusaders fans (or assorted sycophants) to have their little circle jerks in?
Thread after thread of the same shit. Get your own room guys
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can we start a thread for the fucking Crusaders fans (or assorted sycophants) to have their little circle jerks in?
Thread after thread of the same shit. Get your own room guys
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@mariner4life I think there's only one spouting shit ... (the negative one).
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@shark said in Chiefs vs Crusaders:
@kiwi_expat said in Chiefs vs Crusaders:
@gt12 said in Chiefs vs Crusaders:
Not to mention one of the most incredible responses to an earthquake in the local area, or getting robbed in the final in Sydney.
Who really gives a damn? They had plenty of opportunities to win those finals in 2011/2014 and chocked it away, mentality and tactically were shocking on both occasions, the facts are Blackadder failed to win any of the contests that mattered after 9 long seasons with the best squad in Super Rugby by a significant margin, they were tactically embarrassing resembling Foster's All Blacks in 2021, Slackbladder boasts a lowly win-rate of 63% compared to Razor's 87%, and Razor hasn't lost a single knockout match during his 6 year tenure, he specializes in getting his side up for winning the big matches, the only ones that matter at the end.
Should have won in 2014. Lost due to an incorrectly awarded penalty goal at the death.
Blackadder lost 5 games during the 2014 season, which is more than Razor lost across his first 3 seasons.
And Nemani Nadolo's foot was in touch, so Waratahs probably deserved to win by four points anyway.
Ultimately his Crusaders failed to front when it mattered & were consigned to their 6th defeat of 2014.
@kiwi_expat said in Chiefs vs Crusaders:
@shark said in Chiefs vs Crusaders:
@kiwi_expat said in Chiefs vs Crusaders:
@gt12 said in Chiefs vs Crusaders:
Not to mention one of the most incredible responses to an earthquake in the local area, or getting robbed in the final in Sydney.
Who really gives a damn? They had plenty of opportunities to win those finals in 2011/2014 and chocked it away, mentality and tactically were shocking on both occasions, the facts are Blackadder failed to win any of the contests that mattered after 9 long seasons with the best squad in Super Rugby by a significant margin, they were tactically embarrassing resembling Foster's All Blacks in 2021, Slackbladder boasts a lowly win-rate of 63% compared to Razor's 87%, and Razor hasn't lost a single knockout match during his 6 year tenure, he specializes in getting his side up for winning the big matches, the only ones that matter at the end.
Should have won in 2014. Lost due to an incorrectly awarded penalty goal at the death.
Blackadder lost 5 games during the 2014 season, which is more than Razor lost across his first 3 seasons.
And Nemani Nadolo's foot was in touch, so Waratahs probably deserved to win by four points anyway.
Ultimately his Crusaders failed to front when it mattered & were consigned to their 6th defeat of 2014.
Like I said, don't know how we got there. But still could have / should have won it at the death. Still don't know who or what you're arguing for, or against. Seemed you were looking to defend Blackadder for a bit, and then you attack him.
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I'm not going to bother reading through the thread, and judging by @mariner4life's comments, it's best I don't.
A couple of points from my viewpoint at the game, which I am sure have been mentioned often, and have been stated by Cane today. The Chiefs definitely lost the aerial kicking battle, and this is one reason I am not a fan of Trask at fullback. I still think Stevenson is the best option at 15. 1.90 m vs 1.80 m - a no-brainer.
The box kicking was also really poor, particularly from Weber, but also from Ratima at the end. They resulted in stupid penalties, field position, and eventually tries. These are easy to fix.
The turning point in the game was obviously Nankivell not passing early to an unmarked ENS early in the 2nd half. And then Reece scores not long after.
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I'm not going to bother reading through the thread, and judging by @mariner4life's comments, it's best I don't.
A couple of points from my viewpoint at the game, which I am sure have been mentioned often, and have been stated by Cane today. The Chiefs definitely lost the aerial kicking battle, and this is one reason I am not a fan of Trask at fullback. I still think Stevenson is the best option at 15. 1.90 m vs 1.80 m - a no-brainer.
The box kicking was also really poor, particularly from Weber, but also from Ratima at the end. They resulted in stupid penalties, field position, and eventually tries. These are easy to fix.
The turning point in the game was obviously Nankivell not passing early to an unmarked ENS early in the 2nd half. And then Reece scores not long after.
