The Silver Fern

@Landers92 said in England Vs All Blacks:

ALB is on the bench because he can cover 12 and 13 with wing at a pinch. He had that over Ioane. Should consider himself lucky.

LF going to the wing and Proctor coming in to 13 also tells you a lot about how they now feel about Sevu Reece.

Anybody could cover wing as well as Lienert-Brown and if there's (for the third time this year) an early injury to one of the wings, Jordan will probably make the shift with McKenzie at fullback. It's covering second-five and no other reason Lienert-Brown is on the bench. If the game's close and there aren't any injuries, he'll get Cortez Ratima game time. I doubt we'll see him again after this year unless there are numerous injuries. He, Ioane and Reece will be having their farewell match against Wales.

@brodean said in Scotland v All Blacks:

@Mr-Fish said in Scotland v All Blacks:

Not exactly a hot take here, but I don't think any of the current 10s running about in NZ rugby will be the next long-term All Blacks playmaker - not Jacomb, not Reihana, not Love.

Historically, NZ's 10s have looked born to the manor from a young age and have been elevated fairly quickly, even if they haven't taken to Test rugby like a duck to water.

Barrett was 21, Cruden was 21, Carter was 21, Evans was 24, Spencer was 20, Mehrtens was 22.

Has Test rugby become more competitive in the last five years? Undoubtedly. But we've still seen most top flyhalves around the world make their international debut at a young age: Farrell was 20, Russell was 21, Ford was 20.

More recently, Marcus Smith was 22, Fin Smith was 21, Prendergast was 21. Sacha Feinberg-Mngomezulu, who is the closest thing the world's seen to Dan Carter since Dan Carter, was 22.

I think there's a very real chance that the next cab off the ranks isn't even a full-time member of a Super Rugby squad for next year.

Considering the current conservative, fear based selection mindset of NZ coaches, including All Black coaches, I think the chances of a young first five under 24 getting a gig with the AB's any time in the next 5 years are virtually zero - no matter how good they are.

From what I've seen of Reihana and Love this year, and Plummer last year, they'd all likely do a better job than what BB is doing. None of these guys need to be the next Dan Carter. They just need to be better than the current guy which is BB who has mostly been bumbling and circumspect.

Sacha Feinberg-Mngomezulu would have never been selected at 20 for the ABs. He probably wouldn't even get a shot now at age 23 as a starter or even on the bench for the 10 role. He would probably be put on the wing for 10 minutes off the bench if he got selected for the ABs match day 23.

Dylan Pledger is 20 and was arguably the best back in NPC this year and he couldn't even get a wider squad place in the AB's XV who lets face it play second rate opposition.

I agree and for me, the question isn't who's the best first five for this weekend's game, it's who would be better at the 2027 World Cup - an even older, slower, less confident Beauden Barrett or whoever the most promising emerging talent is if that player is given significant experience between now (ideally it would have been since a year or so ago) and 2017?

@Dan54 said in Scotland v All Blacks:

I tend to think that BB isn't what he was, but in my opinion not as bad as some say. Also probably like it or not best 10 in NZ for test rugby at this stage. Hopefully we get a couple come through in super next year.

I don’t like this bit. Even if he is the best option at this stage (I don’t think he is) how do they find out if someone else is better when no time is being put into anyone else? Come 2027, there might very well be a better option if the time is put into them now. Barrett is getting worse and worse but gets all the game time. It’s very short sighted. Unfortunately what they seem to be doing is waiting for the return of Mo’unfa, who might be okay or much worse than he was when he went overseas.

@DurryMexted said in Scotland v All Blacks:

@sparky said in Scotland v All Blacks:

How many bad games can Ardie Savea and Beauden Barrett keep having in Black?

I can't remember any of our players in the past escaping scrutiny for such consistently disappointing performances.

Thats the issue - there is a cognitive dissonance across the whole of NZ (& world) rugby media and consumers - people genuinely watch these guys play and their branding just over rides any actual critical thought about how these guys should be playing

Fans remember ageing rugby players the way they remember their favourite things from their childhood: not as they are now, but frozen at their peak, before time made them ordinary and through a haze of nostalgia that edits out the bad. It doesn't matter how bad Barrett gets, he scored that try off the bench in the 2015 World Cup final and it was a fantastic moment that stuck with people.

I doubt we'll see many changes. Other than a couple of players out with and back from injury, the only points of interest will be whether or not Carter is punished for his foot trip (I doubt he will be) and if they go back to a bigger blindside and confirm they were only prepared to play the weekend's loose forward combo against that particular opposition.

Yet another outing that swung between the ordinary and the fairly decent, with flashes of both brilliance and stupidity. The statement performance Robertson needs just never comes.

@Richie8-7 said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:

@No-Quarter yes, it was horrific. And pretty shocking how badly they threw in the towel. I don't think we're as bad as that result though. At 7-0, we were a decent pass away from 14-0 and it's a different match.

Anyway, not saying we're playing well. Just saying some "supporters" have lost the plot.

This bit annoys me and it's something you see on social media comments a lot: the idea that you can't criticise a team and also support them. Criticism means you care enough to expect more. Support is not blind approval.

@Nepia said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:

@nostrildamus said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:

Then again, Roigard was being a right fluffybunny to JGP.

Yeah, just give him the fucking ball when it's their scrum rather than being a dickhead.

Roigard has been getting on my nerves a bit in the last few games. There's this kind of stuff along with the over the top celebrations after scoring tries and even acting up before putting the ball down. Just as well he's so useful.

@Tim said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:

@Bovidae said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:

@Landers92 said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:

I’d like to see them be bold. Start that young guy. Take that risk. Now is the time. If we start taking risks and making bold calls in 2027 then it’s already too late.

Wayne Smith's advice based on previous experience with a GS, is that you need to use the whole squad. I reckon by the Welsh test, there will be players who either haven't played or been given only a few token minutes.

The three games in a row theory?

The quote is, "Ted (Graham Henry) used to say three big performances in a row are impossible. We're always trying to prove that wrong. But he’s been pretty much on the button. It’s been tough through history to replicate great performances.”

That isn’t exactly saying players shouldn’t play three games in a row.

This team is struggling to put one big performance together at the moment anyway so I’m not sure the concept applies.

@MN5 said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:

@ShaquilleOatmeal said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:

The team naming has become very dull. The 23 almost picks itself, the same underperforming players get picked again and again and almost nothing ever surprises.

That's not true, I'm genuinely ( and pleasantly ) surprised Tupaea got picked over Proctor

Really? Proctor has struggled to stamp his mark all year. The only thing that put a question mark of that selection was Robertson saying Proctor was only being tested for the Perth test but that turned out to be another example of Robertson just saying whatever he thinks sounds good at the time.

The team naming has become very dull. The 23 almost picks itself, the same underperforming players get picked again and again and almost nothing ever surprises.

Wow. Proctor must really have needed a decent rest.

It'll be interesting who they go with at centre. Tupaea should be starting given how well he played in Perth and the fact that Proctor hasn't been as good as we'd all like but Robertson did say Proctor was only being rested for that match.

@Smuts said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:

Their squad is thin and they’ve suffered a fair few injuries. Their incumbent flyhalf is a revolving door who struggles when put under pressure. Their props are weak as piss.

And their coach seems to favour one province over the others to the detriment of the team.

That’s all a sideshow though. Trouble is it’s too far away from RWC pool play for the plastic micks to wank themselves frothy over a good but flawed team.

So the All Blacks to allow another game that should be a comfortable win to go right down to the wire?

@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:

That's not really what I'm arguing about though - I'm arguing that prior international experience isn't the be-all and end-all and pointing out a host of guys with loads of prior international experience who haven't been able arrest slides or are doing no better than Razor.

Your original post was drawing on what other coaches with international experience have or haven’t managed as a way of defending Robertson. Mine points out that line of argument relies on speculation about how others would be doing in his place. How well they're doing coaching ather teams doesn't factor in for me and I don't really care. Robertson is the All Blacks coach through to the World Cup. He needs to do better.

@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:

@Mauss said in All Blacks 2025:

And yes, with hindsight there was, once again, too little attention given to international experience. I’m guessing it will return as a deciding factor in the next coaching selection post-2027, which is good news for guys like Jamie Joseph and Vern Cotter (and perhaps even Schmidt and Rennie, should they be interested).

Well, for a little bit of Devil's advocacy....

For all of the "Woe is us" and "All would be well if only we'd got Joe", the scoreline reads Razor 4 - Schmidt 0. Which is better than Sir Graham managed vs Robbie in his first four tests. And while it can be argued that it's "only Australia", it's an Australia that took a test off the Lions and beat SA in SA.

Record vs Rassie isn't great 1-3, but Rassie's coaching a generational SA team and has had umpteen years to get them where they are - and didn't have the same post-2023 exodus that we did.

3-0 vs Borthwick.

3-1 vs Galthie (you can only beat what's in front of you - but, could've been 4-0).

2-2 vs Contepomi, which is the most annoying.

And we've won the rest vs Fiji, Japan, Ireland and Italy.

Looking at a couple of other coaching options - well you couldn't get more international experience than Gatland, but he came back to Super rugby and totally shat the bed. How could this happen?

This time last year, there were strong calls for Cotter to join the squad - but then he took the reigning Champion Blues to a 7-9 record this year. You've got to ask why his significant international experience didn't help him arrest this debacle?

The ultra-internationally experienced Jamie Joseph led his Highlanders to the bottom of the table.

How did these things happen with all this international experience?

And, the maligned Hansen actually has quite a bit of international experience. As has Ryan - he nearly won a RWC.

And now Razor has too. He's coached 23 tests - and only lost 6 compared to all of the guys above.

The genius Rassie is 36/49 = 73.5%
Razor is 17/23 = 73.9%

It's not a fucking disaster!

Im not into the idea of defending the current coach by way of speculation about how other coaches would be worse.

Robertson is the coach now and while it might not be a ‘fucking disaster’, comparing him to what Schmidt, Cotter, or anyone else might have done is pure guesswork. While his win–loss record is solid-ish, that doesn’t automatically mean everything’s tracking well. The concern isn’t about numbers, it’s about whether the team looks cohesive, improving and confident under his leadership.

It’s easy to say ‘well, the other guys have struggled too,” but that doesn’t change what’s happening with this All Blacks side. Results matter, but so does the direction of travel and people are seeing a team that looks lost. It’s more than fair to expect more than just okay from the head coach of New Zealand.

And when people talk about Robertson’s lack of overseas experience, it’s really his lack of experience anywhere other than Canterbury and the Crusaders. He’s used to coaching the top team, a lot of the time against much weaker opposition, in competitions where the style of play and the formula for winning didn’t need to change much for him.

@cgrant said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:

Carter on the bench would allow a 6/2 split.

Might as well if the other options are Ratima and Christie but I can’t see them trying it. Carter will probably start on the wing.

Does Hansen speak to the players and other coaches the same way he does when interviewed? That would rub a lot of people the wrong way.

@Crazy-Horse said in Final: Canterbury v Otago:

@ShaquilleOatmeal Hotham's not ordinary, he just needs a decent injury free run. If he gets that NZ will have three decent 9s by '27, fingers crossed.

Hotham isn’t in the All Blacks right now…

@Steven-Harris said in Final: Canterbury v Otago:

@george33 what an odd comment , i dont think anyone’s suggesting either Casey or Pledger are at All Black level atm
Kids like this is what makes the Npc exciting both of them have lit up this comp imo and the Npc is better for it
Super Rugby will no doubt be step up for both i have no doubt both of them will handle it
Theres a few players in the current All Black team that hardly look world class atm

Pledger looks like he’ll almost certainly play for the All Blacks and if he didn’t need to spend a bit of time putting a few extra kilos on, I’d have him in there now. The All Blacks have one good half back right now. The others are ordinary.