The Silver Fern

It’s quite easy to see how marketability would influence a player’s contract. That definitely happens around the world in various sports and competitions. When it comes to actual team selection, however, marketability should become almost a non-factor - winning becomes everything at some point.

Once a player is in the team or under contract, it does become easier to select them though. As mentioned earlier, if they’re being paid a lot, that investment needs to be justified in certain people's eyes and if it comes down to a close call with no other player clearly better (and I’m not suggesting that with Barrett and Savea), it’s easy to see how the player on the bigger contract, or who is seen as more marketable, can get the nod.

@Dan54 said in All Blacks 2026:

Perhaps ask A1 on winning number of games, which after all is the point of tests, if that's how you get your rugby knowledge mate.
I know it's old fashioned , but genuinely watching rugby has always been the way I have only ever really judged teams. And not just losses, but wins too, I have seen wins (including this year) that have looked pretty average , and losses that have been pretty good.

Though I can understand that's how many get a lot their rugby (or a lot of sport) info, just ask A1, or/and watch highlights (then look at shortened stats) perhaps takes less time etc.

I got AI to do a bit of maths because it was quicker than doing it myself. Nothing to do with my rugby knowledge. I’m just trying to find out how years I wasn’t around for were as bad or worse than in recent times. Doesn’t sound like they are unless you go by the simplistic wins/losses stat which can be found very easily. And as you point out, it’s the nature of the performances that matter. Those in 2025, with senior players flat out giving up, lack of basic skills, players avoiding their core duties, are the worst I’ve seen by a long way. I’m not hearing examples from the past that compare to what we saw last year.

@mohikamo Would you say the current team are the worst since the early 70s then or are they even worse now?

I only asked AI do calculate the average losing margins.

@Dan54 So, what I’m interested from you, as someone who was paying attention at the time, is in other poor years, what were the performances like and what were the opposition like? Did the team give up during games? Could they not execute basic skills? Did they lose to teams they probably should have beaten? There’s a lot more to it than the number of wins and losses in a season.

And the 1995 team was unbeatable. It took half the side vomiting on the sideline for South Africa to barely win.

@Dan54

Just looking at the results. And this may not be 100% accurate - I asked AI to do the maths for me.

1967
The All Blacks had 0 losses (5 matches played).
Average points differential in losses: N/A (no losses)

1968
The All Blacks had 0 losses (5 matches played).
Average points differential in losses: N/A (no losses)

1969
The All Blacks had 0 losses (2 matches played).
Average points differential in losses: N/A (no losses)

1970
The All Blacks had 3 losses:

• vs South Africa: -11
• vs South Africa: -11
• vs South Africa: -3
  Average points differential in losses: -6.33

1971
The All Blacks had 2 losses:

• vs British Isles: -6
• vs British Isles: -10
  Average points differential in losses: -8.00

1972
The All Blacks had 0 losses (3 matches played).
Average points differential in losses: N/A (no losses)

1973
The All Blacks had 2 losses:

• vs France: -7
• vs England: -6
  Average points differential in losses: -6.50

1994
The All Blacks had 3 losses:

• vs France: -14
• vs France: -3
• vs Australia: -4
  Average points differential in losses: -7.00

1998
The All Blacks had 5 losses:

• vs Australia: -8
• vs South Africa: -10
• vs Australia: -4
• vs South Africa: -1
• vs Australia: -5
  Average points differential in losses: -5.60

2025
The All Blacks had 3 losses:

• vs Argentina: -6
• vs South Africa: -33
• vs England: -14
  Average points differential in losses: -17.67

I can’t speak to the quality of the performances or the teams they lost to from other years but the losses in 1998 were to a very good South African team and the best Australia has ever put on the park. The All Blacks also would have won one of those games via a Jeff Wilson try if they’d had TMO at the time.

What we’ve seen in recent times is something else. Huge losses. The team appearing to give up entirely. Losses to teams the All Blacks never used to lose to. Losses from a position a win should have been all but guaranteed. The team appearing to go backwards. And scratchy performances in wins as well. It’s hard to believe things were worse than they are now and also hard to believe they’ll turn things around.

@Dan54 said in All Blacks 2026:

@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks 2026:

@Dan54 said in All Blacks 2026:

@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks 2026:

@Dan54 said in All Blacks 2026:

@African-Monkey said in All Blacks 2026:

@canefan said in All Blacks 2026:

@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks 2026:

@Nepia said in All Blacks 2026:

@African-Monkey said in All Blacks 2026:

@MN5 said in All Blacks 2026:

@African-Monkey said in All Blacks 2026:

@MN5 said in All Blacks 2026:

@Nepia said in All Blacks 2026:

@Yeetyaah said in All Blacks 2026:

Robert Van Rooyen circle jerk for ya

Crusaders circle jerk with Knowler there alongside him although Knowler was playing the (only) slightly more balanced role in the exchange.

Takeaways:

• Mo'unga was finally coming right after 50 tests when he took the Yen and ran.
• Everything was BB's fault.
• The assistant coaches are all good because they once made the Crusaders backline "hiss".
• Barrett is fine despite the fact he needs to play better and tidy up his discipline which has been shit all career.
• Razor doesn't have the cattle but also the team makes too many unforced errors and they'd threaten the Boks without those (so wait we do have the cattle?)
• The most important thing it the ABs are peaking in 2027 (fuck off, we're not a RWC only team).

They've done that with the ABs backline too in that they hiss while they're deflating.

You'd think these 2 fanboy 'journos' would have gotten the message that Super Rugby and Test Rigby are worlds apart by now.

Regular Show is wonderful, used to enjoy watching it with my boys.

But to address your point, Ardie Savea made quite a number of World Teams of the year so that should tell you all you need to know.

A great highlights reel player.

Has someone put together a highlights reel for him for 2025?

Has someone put together a lowlights reel of him walking on defence, refusing to hit rucks and being miles away from where he’s required? I’m only semi-joking here - it’d be interesting to see the reaction from fans who only watch highlights.

They'd just call it fake news

'He's allowed a break after carrying the team on his own for all these years'

I just don't get the Ardie hate that goes on in here. He was absolutely worn out at end of this year, but bet he be one first named in team going forward. Well he would be in my team, Hiw man problem year just gone was coaches running him into ground, and that started with Tana in super.

You also think James Parsons is a good analyst and claim to have seen much worse performing All Blacks teams.

Yep ! And your point is? Are you upset because I see things differently than you?
I also don't believe I have seen as much strength of test teams around world.

Not upset at all. Just pointing out you seem to be well off the mark fairly often and are very accepting of mediocrity from the team. How exactly do you think it’s okay for an openside flanker to not bother hitting rucks? How is it okay for any player to walk on defence? How does that not place more burden on the other players? How is it okay for any player others look up to to and follow to phone it in the way Savea does?

Am I off the mark, or are you? You seem very confident you know a lot more about game than those who don't agree with you. You seemed to point out I enjoy Parson.s analilysis too? Hell I take notice of Mauss on here, I find he does work on analysing games, where as I watch them at park or on tv, and take my opinions from that. Which is ok, but very very limited.
Mate as I said it all opinions, I got mine, as I said I don't understand the hate. hey many paid pundits and coaches agree me with me obviously. Hey I not in the Will Jordan at 15 fanboi group either, but figure coaches work on having a plan for how he plays.
We had a poster/s (can't remember who) saying they couldn't see what the big deal was with Fabian Holland too. I haven't seen all this walking on defence etc, and it's actually not unusual for loosies (especially 7s) to not hit rucks, as they tend to go for steal, but often if they can't get it set up in defence, I think some loosies hit rucks because they think that's there job, but sometimes (as with Props, locks etc etc) you better to stay out of them, as Boks looked to do in Wellington at times.
Also by all means tell me where I said mediocrity is ok from All Blacks, or are you just making stuff up. I am one who argues against picking teams on what we need for WC, as I think we should try and win every game.

I’ve decided to briefly respond to this by saying I’d like you to explain your options more and answer some of the questions being asked of you.

When did you see worse All Blacks teams than the 2025 lot and in which ways were they worse? I’m genuinely interested in this because I’m not old enough to remember anything earlier than the mid-90s and there are a few reasons I think the terrible 1998 run wasn’t as bad as 2025.

And what makes you say Savea performed well in 2025, other than being on the field a lot? I also find it strange you watched the Wellington loss and didn’t see the players walking around, basically not bothering.

As far as Parsons is concerned, he comes across as someone trying to come up with excuses for the All Blacks’ poor performances, scraping at the bottom of the barrel for random statistics because he’s worried about getting offside with his mates. It’s not so much that I think I know more than him. It’s that I don’t think he’s being honest.

@Dan54 said in All Blacks 2026:

@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks 2026:

@Dan54 said in All Blacks 2026:

@African-Monkey said in All Blacks 2026:

@canefan said in All Blacks 2026:

@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks 2026:

@Nepia said in All Blacks 2026:

@African-Monkey said in All Blacks 2026:

@MN5 said in All Blacks 2026:

@African-Monkey said in All Blacks 2026:

@MN5 said in All Blacks 2026:

@Nepia said in All Blacks 2026:

@Yeetyaah said in All Blacks 2026:

Robert Van Rooyen circle jerk for ya

Crusaders circle jerk with Knowler there alongside him although Knowler was playing the (only) slightly more balanced role in the exchange.

Takeaways:

• Mo'unga was finally coming right after 50 tests when he took the Yen and ran.
• Everything was BB's fault.
• The assistant coaches are all good because they once made the Crusaders backline "hiss".
• Barrett is fine despite the fact he needs to play better and tidy up his discipline which has been shit all career.
• Razor doesn't have the cattle but also the team makes too many unforced errors and they'd threaten the Boks without those (so wait we do have the cattle?)
• The most important thing it the ABs are peaking in 2027 (fuck off, we're not a RWC only team).

They've done that with the ABs backline too in that they hiss while they're deflating.

You'd think these 2 fanboy 'journos' would have gotten the message that Super Rugby and Test Rigby are worlds apart by now.

Regular Show is wonderful, used to enjoy watching it with my boys.

But to address your point, Ardie Savea made quite a number of World Teams of the year so that should tell you all you need to know.

A great highlights reel player.

Has someone put together a highlights reel for him for 2025?

Has someone put together a lowlights reel of him walking on defence, refusing to hit rucks and being miles away from where he’s required? I’m only semi-joking here - it’d be interesting to see the reaction from fans who only watch highlights.

They'd just call it fake news

'He's allowed a break after carrying the team on his own for all these years'

I just don't get the Ardie hate that goes on in here. He was absolutely worn out at end of this year, but bet he be one first named in team going forward. Well he would be in my team, Hiw man problem year just gone was coaches running him into ground, and that started with Tana in super.

You also think James Parsons is a good analyst and claim to have seen much worse performing All Blacks teams.

Yep ! And your point is? Are you upset because I see things differently than you?
I also don't believe I have seen as much strength of test teams around world.

Not upset at all. Just pointing out you seem to be well off the mark fairly often and are very accepting of mediocrity from the team. How exactly do you think it’s okay for an openside flanker to not bother hitting rucks? How is it okay for any player to walk on defence? How does that not place more burden on the other players? How is it okay for any player others look up to to and follow to phone it in the way Savea does?

@Dan54 said in All Blacks 2026:

@African-Monkey said in All Blacks 2026:

@canefan said in All Blacks 2026:

@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks 2026:

@Nepia said in All Blacks 2026:

@African-Monkey said in All Blacks 2026:

@MN5 said in All Blacks 2026:

@African-Monkey said in All Blacks 2026:

@MN5 said in All Blacks 2026:

@Nepia said in All Blacks 2026:

@Yeetyaah said in All Blacks 2026:

Robert Van Rooyen circle jerk for ya

Crusaders circle jerk with Knowler there alongside him although Knowler was playing the (only) slightly more balanced role in the exchange.

Takeaways:

• Mo'unga was finally coming right after 50 tests when he took the Yen and ran.
• Everything was BB's fault.
• The assistant coaches are all good because they once made the Crusaders backline "hiss".
• Barrett is fine despite the fact he needs to play better and tidy up his discipline which has been shit all career.
• Razor doesn't have the cattle but also the team makes too many unforced errors and they'd threaten the Boks without those (so wait we do have the cattle?)
• The most important thing it the ABs are peaking in 2027 (fuck off, we're not a RWC only team).

They've done that with the ABs backline too in that they hiss while they're deflating.

You'd think these 2 fanboy 'journos' would have gotten the message that Super Rugby and Test Rigby are worlds apart by now.

Regular Show is wonderful, used to enjoy watching it with my boys.

But to address your point, Ardie Savea made quite a number of World Teams of the year so that should tell you all you need to know.

A great highlights reel player.

Has someone put together a highlights reel for him for 2025?

Has someone put together a lowlights reel of him walking on defence, refusing to hit rucks and being miles away from where he’s required? I’m only semi-joking here - it’d be interesting to see the reaction from fans who only watch highlights.

They'd just call it fake news

'He's allowed a break after carrying the team on his own for all these years'

I just don't get the Ardie hate that goes on in here. He was absolutely worn out at end of this year, but bet he be one first named in team going forward. Well he would be in my team, Hiw man problem year just gone was coaches running him into ground, and that started with Tana in super.

You also think James Parsons is a good analyst and claim to have seen much worse performing All Blacks teams.

@Nepia said in All Blacks 2026:

@African-Monkey said in All Blacks 2026:

@MN5 said in All Blacks 2026:

@African-Monkey said in All Blacks 2026:

@MN5 said in All Blacks 2026:

@Nepia said in All Blacks 2026:

@Yeetyaah said in All Blacks 2026:

Robert Van Rooyen circle jerk for ya

Crusaders circle jerk with Knowler there alongside him although Knowler was playing the (only) slightly more balanced role in the exchange.

Takeaways:

• Mo'unga was finally coming right after 50 tests when he took the Yen and ran.
• Everything was BB's fault.
• The assistant coaches are all good because they once made the Crusaders backline "hiss".
• Barrett is fine despite the fact he needs to play better and tidy up his discipline which has been shit all career.
• Razor doesn't have the cattle but also the team makes too many unforced errors and they'd threaten the Boks without those (so wait we do have the cattle?)
• The most important thing it the ABs are peaking in 2027 (fuck off, we're not a RWC only team).

They've done that with the ABs backline too in that they hiss while they're deflating.

You'd think these 2 fanboy 'journos' would have gotten the message that Super Rugby and Test Rigby are worlds apart by now.

Regular Show is wonderful, used to enjoy watching it with my boys.

But to address your point, Ardie Savea made quite a number of World Teams of the year so that should tell you all you need to know.

A great highlights reel player.

Has someone put together a highlights reel for him for 2025?

Has someone put together a lowlights reel of him walking on defence, refusing to hit rucks and being miles away from where he’s required? I’m only semi-joking here - it’d be interesting to see the reaction from fans who only watch highlights.

@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2026:

@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks 2026:

@Nepia There are several factors stopping people going as frequently as they used to. The price, as you say - and not just the tickets. Better quality streaming and TVs. A bit of over-saturation of rugby. More competition from other entertainment. Lower-quality competitions, with no All Blacks in the NPC, etc.

This one might just be me, but Super Rugby seems to have lost its appeal a bit with all the changes to teams and competition structure, South African teams leaving, Australian teams underperforming.

I also think atmosphere decline feeds on itself. Smaller crowds create a vicious cycle: empty seats reduce atmosphere, poor atmosphere discourages new or casual fans and once a ground feels quiet, people assume it’s not worth going.

MY personal experience is also the time, we had so many years of night games creeping later and later, am i miss remembering they got to 805pm kickoff? it just became a thing lots of families wouldnt do....and if you dont go with your family i think your less likely to go as an adult, i dont have kids but i would struggle to get mate to come to the pub or even at someone's house...clashed with bed time or bath etc...and when people did come it was always talked about "beautiful day this avo and was looking for something to do with the kids"...now we're getting some more day games which is good but its definitely not peoples routine

Taking the kids to a night game does seem like it'd be a bit too difficult. Our one kid is too young to sit and watch a game and, yes, his bedtime is (conveniently for watching at home) bang on 7:00. But people must have used to either go with the family or without them. Something's changed there - the cost, time, a different attitude etc - that wasn't an issue before. There were more afternoon games pre-professionalism but that's now a long time ago.

@Nepia There are several factors stopping people going as frequently as they used to. The price, as you say - and not just the tickets. Better quality streaming and TVs. A bit of over-saturation of rugby. More competition from other entertainment. Lower-quality competitions, with no All Blacks in the NPC, etc.

This one might just be me, but Super Rugby seems to have lost its appeal a bit with all the changes to teams and competition structure, South African teams leaving, Australian teams underperforming.

I also think atmosphere decline feeds on itself. Smaller crowds create a vicious cycle: empty seats reduce atmosphere, poor atmosphere discourages new or casual fans and once a ground feels quiet, people assume it’s not worth going.

@antipodean said in All Blacks 2026:

@Bovidae said in All Blacks 2026:

@game_film said in All Blacks 2026:

Ardie sin-binned for dissent in his first match back in Japan. Make him captain right now and don’t think twice!!

The messiah's team lost 46-0 to Deans' Wild Knights.

No doubt he looked devastated on Insta

He's such an inspirational player and human being. He gives his all for the team week in, week out, never backs down, leaves it all on the field, puts in the hard yards, empties the tank, battles to the end and never gives up. He has the heart of a lion. There's no quit in him. You can tell how much he cares.

@kiwiinmelb said in All Blacks 2026:

@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks 2026:

@canefan said in All Blacks 2026:

Speaking of placating the hordes, normally the ABs losing enrages the hordes. But it might be a sign of how far we've sunk that average fans seem accepting of it all

Looking at social media comments, I’m convinced most people either don’t notice the team’s lost or just don’t watch the games. The sycophantic nature of the comments and ignorance of the overall performance is crazy.

We have to accept the opposition has improved seems to be a common one now ,

I don’t remember seeing that much when foster was coaching , they wanted his head .

Following the game against Wales, I saw a comment from someone pointing out that letting Wales score 26 points wasn't all that flash. There were countless replies claiming that was absolutely fine because Wales are a tier 1 team.

@canefan said in All Blacks 2026:

Speaking of placating the hordes, normally the ABs losing enrages the hordes. But it might be a sign of how far we've sunk that average fans seem accepting of it all

Looking at social media comments, I’m convinced most people either don’t notice the team’s lost or just don’t watch the games. The sycophantic nature of the comments and ignorance of the overall performance is crazy.

One thing I recall from the way Evan’s used to play is that passing was most often his first option and he would pass immediately. He was quick (like Barrett used to be all those years ago) but he’d set himself up for a run once the opposition became used to him always passing without even looking like he was going to run the ball. He could obviously kick more than twenty metres too. It’d be ideal if he could introduce these concepts to the current players, with their run it every time style.

@Bovidae said in All Blacks 2026:

All Blacks v Italy, Saturday, 11 July, SKY Stadium, Wellington, kick off 5.10pm.

Giving Italy a real shot here.

@Bovidae said in All Blacks 2025:

https://www.thepost.co.nz/sport/360901329/five-all-blacks-under-pressure-keep-their-spots-and-scott-robertsons-standouts

The five ABs are:

S Barrett
B Barrett (and he is a fanboy).
Ioane
ALB
Reece

Under pressure to keep their spots? I’d say two of them are done no matter what they pull out in Super Rugby.

@Frank I heard he’s already come up with the themes for the next two years. 2026 is “Row the Same Canoe” and 2027 is “Swim as One School of Fish”.

@Dan54 said in All Blacks 2025:

@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks 2025:

@Dan54 said in All Blacks 2025:

@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:

@ShaquilleOatmeal said in Wales v All Blacks:

@taniwharugby said in Wales v All Blacks:

@KiwiMurph thats the thing, Parsons has a very analytical eye when it comes to rugby, when he was playing they had him on the radio in a regular spot talking and he was always very insightful, similar to O'Halloran.

Having only listened to a couple of episodes recently, Parsons seems like he's trying to come up with excuses for how poorly the All Blacks are playing. He points to random statistics or moments in the game and tries to make out that's all that's wrong. 'They would've won if it hadn't been for that one little thing there.'

He looks like he's thinking really hard too, so maybe he is trying to find obscure ways to justify how shit we are

I really enjoy the show. If I wanted to just see people pointing sticks and saying so and so is useless, after watching a game on tv, I got rugby forums. I enjoy hearing people who have been in the game at decent level point to reasons for things going right or wrong.

But are those reasons accurate?

Well are they inaccurate? See you can say that about any show or even post about rugby. I would in genera think people who have (or are still ) played at high levels have a pretty good idea what in general coaches and players at that level look to?

Playing ability doesn’t equate to knowledge or insight. If it did, it’d be pretty easy to work out who would make the best coaches.

Parsons is part of a wider media group that seems reluctant to criticise the team, possibly because they’re discouraged from doing so.

@kiwiinmelb said in All Blacks 2025:

I do get where jet is coming from , not sure we need to behave in that way but it does feel like we have lost our ruthlessness,

The win at all costs attitude that we were famous for feels like it has been infiltrated by participation culture where feelings are more important and everyone gets a trophy.

But I’m probably just a grumpy old bastard living in the past .

You're right. It doesn't seem like the players and coaches are all that dissatisfied with poor performances. They don't need to act like dickheads or thugs on the field but it'd be nice if they seemed more determined to perform. 'Ruthlessness' is a good word to describe it.