Italy v All Blacks
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@reprobate said in Italy v All Blacks:
@brodean The stat I find disturbing is the very high % of 0-3s rucks for Ireland.
The stats are for the All Blacks rucks under 3 seconds.
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@reprobate said in Italy v All Blacks:
@brodean The stat I find disturbing is the very high % of 0-3s rucks for Ireland.
The stats are for the All Blacks rucks under 3 seconds.
@brodean said in Italy v All Blacks:
@reprobate said in Italy v All Blacks:
@brodean The stat I find disturbing is the very high % of 0-3s rucks for Ireland.
The stats are for the All Blacks rucks under 3 seconds.
NZ had 61% possession against France so were always going to have more rucks under 3 seconds. Do you have the stats as a percentage of total rucks, or number of rucks over 3 seconds?
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@brodean said in Italy v All Blacks:
@reprobate said in Italy v All Blacks:
@brodean The stat I find disturbing is the very high % of 0-3s rucks for Ireland.
The stats are for the All Blacks rucks under 3 seconds.
NZ had 61% possession against France so were always going to have more rucks under 3 seconds. Do you have the stats as a percentage of total rucks, or number of rucks over 3 seconds?
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@mikey07 Assume Finau is out, he looked bad after that collision. He seemed to slip as he went to tackle, and at the point of collision the back of his head was facing forward, and was the contact point.
@Tim said in Italy v All Blacks:
@mikey07 Assume Finau is out, he looked bad after that collision. He seemed to slip as he went to tackle, and at the point of collision the back of his head was facing forward, and was the contact point.
He left the pitch like he’d sculled a bottle of whisky and hour before and was being whisked away by some concerned mates. There is no way he is playing this weekend imo.
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@Tim said in Italy v All Blacks:
@mikey07 Assume Finau is out, he looked bad after that collision. He seemed to slip as he went to tackle, and at the point of collision the back of his head was facing forward, and was the contact point.
He left the pitch like he’d sculled a bottle of whisky and hour before and was being whisked away by some concerned mates. There is no way he is playing this weekend imo.
@Billy-Tell another one to add to the EdG rumour mill.
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@mariner4life said in Italy v All Blacks:
dude, they are your words in your post. i am simply asking you to clarify what you mean. Sam Cane is the best openside in the country right now, and caps are not "wasted" on him. And for all they hype, he is not less able than Lakai, he is far more able.
Now, if you are talking about TJP, who is very lucky to be considered in the top 3 halfbacks in teh country, let alone the top 2, then it is a different conversation. However your post doesn't make that distinction.
(you're not the only one to have a pop at Cane either, but yours was the final straw)
Number All Blacks Rucks under 3s on NH Tour
37 Japan ( Cane starts at 7 )
43 England ( Cane starts at 7 )
40 Ireland ( Cane starts at 7 )
78 France ( Savea starts at 7 )How do you know we wouldn't have lost by more if Cane started?
@brodean said in Italy v All Blacks:
@mariner4life said in Italy v All Blacks:
dude, they are your words in your post. i am simply asking you to clarify what you mean. Sam Cane is the best openside in the country right now, and caps are not "wasted" on him. And for all they hype, he is not less able than Lakai, he is far more able.
Now, if you are talking about TJP, who is very lucky to be considered in the top 3 halfbacks in teh country, let alone the top 2, then it is a different conversation. However your post doesn't make that distinction.
(you're not the only one to have a pop at Cane either, but yours was the final straw)
Number All Blacks Rucks under 3s on NH Tour
37 Japan ( Cane starts at 7 )
43 England ( Cane starts at 7 )
40 Ireland ( Cane starts at 7 )
78 France ( Savea starts at 7 )How do you know we wouldn't have lost by more if Cane started?
Here's another way to do stat based selections:
W Japan ( Cane starts at 7 )
W England ( Cane starts at 7 )
W Ireland ( Cane starts at 7 )
L France ( Savea starts at 7 ) -
so against France he is not a less able player? just Italy. gotcha.
Look, i am as excited by Lakai as even you crazy Canes fans who think all your players should be starting ABs. And i am more than happy for him to play this week, because as i said, defence and ruck work won't matter anywhere near as much as speed and link play. But there is no need to shit on Sam Cane and his legacy in your urge to rush through your shiny new bauble.
That French game rammed home the fact that, while all athletic exciting players, a Sititi, Savea and Lakai loose forward trio is not yet ready for real test rugby.
@mariner4life said in Italy v All Blacks:
Look, i am as excited by Lakai as even you crazy Canes fans who think all your players should be starting ABs.
Lomax, Aumua, Tosi, Lakai, Roigard, JB, Proctor, Love.
Well yeah. We'd probably be 4/4 on this tour. -
I'm going to take a stab at the AB 23 for Italy and see how close we can get:
- E De Groot
- C Taylor
- P Tosi
- S Barrett (C)
- P Tuipolotu
- W Sititi
- S Cane
- A Savea
- C Roigard
- D McKenzie
- C Clarke
- A Leinert-Brown
- R Ioane
- S Reece
- W Jordan
- A Aumua
- O Tu'ungafasi
- F Newell
- J Lord / F Holland
- P Lakai
- T Perenara
- D Havili
- R Love / S Perofeta
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@brodean said in Italy v All Blacks:
@mariner4life said in Italy v All Blacks:
dude, they are your words in your post. i am simply asking you to clarify what you mean. Sam Cane is the best openside in the country right now, and caps are not "wasted" on him. And for all they hype, he is not less able than Lakai, he is far more able.
Now, if you are talking about TJP, who is very lucky to be considered in the top 3 halfbacks in teh country, let alone the top 2, then it is a different conversation. However your post doesn't make that distinction.
(you're not the only one to have a pop at Cane either, but yours was the final straw)
Number All Blacks Rucks under 3s on NH Tour
37 Japan ( Cane starts at 7 )
43 England ( Cane starts at 7 )
40 Ireland ( Cane starts at 7 )
78 France ( Savea starts at 7 )How do you know we wouldn't have lost by more if Cane started?
Here's another way to do stat based selections:
W Japan ( Cane starts at 7 )
W England ( Cane starts at 7 )
W Ireland ( Cane starts at 7 )
L France ( Savea starts at 7 )@antipodean said in Italy v All Blacks:
@brodean said in Italy v All Blacks:
@mariner4life said in Italy v All Blacks:
dude, they are your words in your post. i am simply asking you to clarify what you mean. Sam Cane is the best openside in the country right now, and caps are not "wasted" on him. And for all they hype, he is not less able than Lakai, he is far more able.
Now, if you are talking about TJP, who is very lucky to be considered in the top 3 halfbacks in teh country, let alone the top 2, then it is a different conversation. However your post doesn't make that distinction.
(you're not the only one to have a pop at Cane either, but yours was the final straw)
Number All Blacks Rucks under 3s on NH Tour
37 Japan ( Cane starts at 7 )
43 England ( Cane starts at 7 )
40 Ireland ( Cane starts at 7 )
78 France ( Savea starts at 7 )How do you know we wouldn't have lost by more if Cane started?
Here's another way to do stat based selections:
W Japan ( Cane starts at 7 )
W England ( Cane starts at 7 )
W Ireland ( Cane starts at 7 )
L France ( Savea starts at 7 )None of those teams played as well as France. None of them have the same ceiling.
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I'm going to take a stab at the AB 23 for Italy and see how close we can get:
- E De Groot
- C Taylor
- P Tosi
- S Barrett (C)
- P Tuipolotu
- W Sititi
- S Cane
- A Savea
- C Roigard
- D McKenzie
- C Clarke
- A Leinert-Brown
- R Ioane
- S Reece
- W Jordan
- A Aumua
- O Tu'ungafasi
- F Newell
- J Lord / F Holland
- P Lakai
- T Perenara
- D Havili
- R Love / S Perofeta
@Canes4life said in Italy v All Blacks:
I'm going to take a stab at the AB 23 for Italy and see how close we can get:
- E De Groot
- C Taylor
- P Tosi
- S Barrett (C)
- P Tuipolotu
- W Sititi
- S Cane
- A Savea
- C Roigard
- D McKenzie
- C Clarke
- A Leinert-Brown
- R Ioane
- S Reece
- W Jordan
- A Aumua
- O Tu'ungafasi
- F Newell
- J Lord / F Holland
- P Lakai
- T Perenara
- D Havili
- R Love / S Perofeta
I would say you've got maybe half the starting XV right, if you ignore what position you've put them in...
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@antipodean said in Italy v All Blacks:
@brodean said in Italy v All Blacks:
@mariner4life said in Italy v All Blacks:
dude, they are your words in your post. i am simply asking you to clarify what you mean. Sam Cane is the best openside in the country right now, and caps are not "wasted" on him. And for all they hype, he is not less able than Lakai, he is far more able.
Now, if you are talking about TJP, who is very lucky to be considered in the top 3 halfbacks in teh country, let alone the top 2, then it is a different conversation. However your post doesn't make that distinction.
(you're not the only one to have a pop at Cane either, but yours was the final straw)
Number All Blacks Rucks under 3s on NH Tour
37 Japan ( Cane starts at 7 )
43 England ( Cane starts at 7 )
40 Ireland ( Cane starts at 7 )
78 France ( Savea starts at 7 )How do you know we wouldn't have lost by more if Cane started?
Here's another way to do stat based selections:
W Japan ( Cane starts at 7 )
W England ( Cane starts at 7 )
W Ireland ( Cane starts at 7 )
L France ( Savea starts at 7 )None of those teams played as well as France. None of them have the same ceiling.
@brodean said in Italy v All Blacks:
None of those teams played as well as France. None of them have the same ceiling.
I'm still frustrated with the French result. We had it.
DMac first five, Love at 15, Jordan and Clarke on the wings. Our attack certainly would've been different with those players.
Anyway it's done -
@brodean said in Italy v All Blacks:
None of those teams played as well as France. None of them have the same ceiling.
I'm still frustrated with the French result. We had it.
DMac first five, Love at 15, Jordan and Clarke on the wings. Our attack certainly would've been different with those players.
Anyway it's done@BerniesCorner said in Italy v All Blacks:
@brodean said in Italy v All Blacks:
None of those teams played as well as France. None of them have the same ceiling.
I'm still frustrated with the French result. We had it.
DMac first five, Love at 15, Jordan and Clarke on the wings. Our attack certainly would've been different with those players.
Anyway it's doneNot that I think he was playing a stormer, watching a replay, when we lost Jordie the French backline defence did change. For whatever reason we had a bit more space to work with when he was on. These are small margins but that’s often the difference with these sort of matches. We looked sped up rather than playing more methodical.
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@BerniesCorner said in Italy v All Blacks:
@brodean said in Italy v All Blacks:
None of those teams played as well as France. None of them have the same ceiling.
I'm still frustrated with the French result. We had it.
DMac first five, Love at 15, Jordan and Clarke on the wings. Our attack certainly would've been different with those players.
Anyway it's doneNot that I think he was playing a stormer, watching a replay, when we lost Jordie the French backline defence did change. For whatever reason we had a bit more space to work with when he was on. These are small margins but that’s often the difference with these sort of matches. We looked sped up rather than playing more methodical.
@ACT-Crusader Probably panicking a bit as we had trouble breaking down their defence
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just a question re Cane at 7...whats the aim? he's the best 7 so we want to play him to win?....is there much chance we lose without him? i dont think he alone is standing between us and a win...so its really about giving him one last game? i'd rather someone else got some experience there, games like Italy are one of the few chances people get to bridge the gap between super rugby and big internationals (ie still an international, you get to work on combinations with other AB's....not a long way off SA in SA)
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just a question re Cane at 7...whats the aim? he's the best 7 so we want to play him to win?....is there much chance we lose without him? i dont think he alone is standing between us and a win...so its really about giving him one last game? i'd rather someone else got some experience there, games like Italy are one of the few chances people get to bridge the gap between super rugby and big internationals (ie still an international, you get to work on combinations with other AB's....not a long way off SA in SA)
I actually agree that his time has come. And he won't be there next year, but he is available for one last test and:
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is still our best cleaner and general pest around the breakdown (in other words, he can hold his place based on ability); and
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he is a past AB captain and warrior who we say goodbye to with one last game.
For me, I think one last start is justified.
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@mariner4life my issue with the 'top team' is there is a glaring issue in the 23 jersey. In fact the only player in that spot who has added value this season was Love when he came on vs Japan and scored 2 tries.
I know they need certain cover but there's a real opportunity to look at adding more punch from the bench in the form of Love, Lam etc.
@KiwiMurph said in Italy v All Blacks:
@mariner4life my issue with the 'top team' is there is a glaring issue in the 23 jersey. In fact the only player in that spot who has added value this season was Love when he came on vs Japan and scored 2 tries.
I know they need certain cover but there's a real opportunity to look at adding more punch from the bench in the form of Love, Lam etc.
Generally speaking midfielders and wingers, just don't impact a game as much, unless the guy playing there is having a bad game... and if the guy is doing his job well, then he should probably stay out there.
15 can impact the game from broken play far more, and obviously 9 and 10 are pivotal... I think this is part of the reason for a shift to the 6-2 split... a second fresh loose forward can impact the game way more than a sub winger who might only touch the ball four teams, and only one of those may actually be in any space to do something.
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just a question re Cane at 7...whats the aim? he's the best 7 so we want to play him to win?....is there much chance we lose without him? i dont think he alone is standing between us and a win...so its really about giving him one last game? i'd rather someone else got some experience there, games like Italy are one of the few chances people get to bridge the gap between super rugby and big internationals (ie still an international, you get to work on combinations with other AB's....not a long way off SA in SA)
@Kiwiwomble said in Italy v All Blacks:
just a question re Cane at 7...whats the aim? he's the best 7 so we want to play him to win?....is there much chance we lose without him? i dont think he alone is standing between us and a win...so its really about giving him one last game? i'd rather someone else got some experience there, games like Italy are one of the few chances people get to bridge the gap between super rugby and big internationals (ie still an international, you get to work on combinations with other AB's....not a long way off SA in SA)
Easy as fans to take the human element out of it. Cane has given loads to the jersey, so would be cruel not to give him a proper send-off. I don't feel the same way about TJ, but can be certain the coaches and most of his teammates do, so likewise, if taken on tour, would be nuts not to give him a final game.
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im not going to die on the hill as cant argue and wont argue with everything he's given to the jersey....but i also think no one person is bigger then the jersey and so dont buy into the idea anyone deserves "one more game", they get their caps at 100 and can have all the off field accolades they like...but the opportunity to build for the future should trump all, if we get to next season and there is chat about the jump from super rugby to playing whom ever is touring in June being too much it will be annoying
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@Kiwiwomble said in Italy v All Blacks:
just a question re Cane at 7...whats the aim? he's the best 7 so we want to play him to win?....is there much chance we lose without him? i dont think he alone is standing between us and a win...so its really about giving him one last game? i'd rather someone else got some experience there, games like Italy are one of the few chances people get to bridge the gap between super rugby and big internationals (ie still an international, you get to work on combinations with other AB's....not a long way off SA in SA)
Easy as fans to take the human element out of it. Cane has given loads to the jersey, so would be cruel not to give him a proper send-off. I don't feel the same way about TJ, but can be certain the coaches and most of his teammates do, so likewise, if taken on tour, would be nuts not to give him a final game.
@frugby said in Italy v All Blacks:
@Kiwiwomble said in Italy v All Blacks:
just a question re Cane at 7...whats the aim? he's the best 7 so we want to play him to win?....is there much chance we lose without him? i dont think he alone is standing between us and a win...so its really about giving him one last game? i'd rather someone else got some experience there, games like Italy are one of the few chances people get to bridge the gap between super rugby and big internationals (ie still an international, you get to work on combinations with other AB's....not a long way off SA in SA)
Easy as fans to take the human element out of it. Cane has given loads to the jersey, so would be cruel not to give him a proper send-off. I don't feel the same way about TJ, but can be certain the coaches and most of his teammates do, so likewise, if taken on tour, would be nuts not to give him a final game.
I was about to post something similar. I think it's reasonable to give him a farewell, to allow him to lead the ABs out one last time and all that jazz. He is an ex AB captain that has sacrificed and risked a fair bit over the years, why not say thanks and farewell? We have time.
