Highlanders 2025

frugby

@SouthernMann said in Highlanders 2025:

@Kiwiwomble said in Highlanders 2025:

i think sometimes we need to be more honest and more brave, accept that we might have a season where we come dead last (rather than trying to make the playoffs and sometime scraping in and sometimes missing)....BUT....we actually give some of these young guys some game time....rather than 5-10 minutes every few games and then writing them off....or playing 6/10 gilbert in whatever position we need a body and they dont get any experience

maybe its just mean but i dont actually find finishing 6-8 with burnt out journeymen much more enjoyable than i would 9-11 with young promising people

This is the period we are theoretically in.

With the mix of youth and some outside experience.

My rose tinted glasses hope was to finish somewhere between 5th and 8th. Being in contention going into the final round. I think we have have blew it with the loses to the Hurricanes and the Reds.

It is just difficult when guys are learning as rugby players against very experienced players.

For sure. 2026 & 2027 are sink and swim, where we work out if our talent ID has been any good/JJ is actually the right guy in the modern environment.

But with that squad I listed above, I'm backing the project till it dies. By 2027, de Groot, Holland & Haig will be All Blacks, JRK & Pledger will be banging the door down, and Tangitau will be in there if he is still here. With solid players around, you could definitely mount a challenge, and as a Highlanders fan that is the best we can ever hope for.

Kiwiwomble

@SouthernMann said in Highlanders 2025:

@Kiwiwomble said in Highlanders 2025:

i think sometimes we need to be more honest and more brave, accept that we might have a season where we come dead last (rather than trying to make the playoffs and sometime scraping in and sometimes missing)....BUT....we actually give some of these young guys some game time....rather than 5-10 minutes every few games and then writing them off....or playing 6/10 gilbert in whatever position we need a body and they dont get any experience

maybe its just mean but i dont actually find finishing 6-8 with burnt out journeymen much more enjoyable than i would 9-11 with young promising people

This is the period we are theoretically in.

With the mix of youth and some outside experience.

My rose tinted glasses hope was to finish somewhere between 5th and 8th. Being in contention going into the final round. I think we have have blew it with the loses to the Hurricanes and the Reds.

It is just difficult when guys are learning as rugby players against very experienced players.

i think thats my point, whats the "experience" giving us? we're talking about these young guys moving on when they havent had as much time as the experienced ones

SouthernMann

@frugby said in Highlanders 2025:

@SouthernMann said in Highlanders 2025:

@Kiwiwomble said in Highlanders 2025:

i think sometimes we need to be more honest and more brave, accept that we might have a season where we come dead last (rather than trying to make the playoffs and sometime scraping in and sometimes missing)....BUT....we actually give some of these young guys some game time....rather than 5-10 minutes every few games and then writing them off....or playing 6/10 gilbert in whatever position we need a body and they dont get any experience

maybe its just mean but i dont actually find finishing 6-8 with burnt out journeymen much more enjoyable than i would 9-11 with young promising people

This is the period we are theoretically in.

With the mix of youth and some outside experience.

My rose tinted glasses hope was to finish somewhere between 5th and 8th. Being in contention going into the final round. I think we have have blew it with the loses to the Hurricanes and the Reds.

It is just difficult when guys are learning as rugby players against very experienced players.

For sure. 2026 & 2027 are sink and swim, where we work out if our talent ID has been any good/JJ is actually the right guy in the modern environment.

But with that squad I listed above, I'm backing the project till it dies. By 2027, de Groot, Holland & Haig will be All Blacks, JRK & Pledger will be banging the door down, and Tangitau will be in there if he is still here. With solid players around, you could definitely mount a challenge, and as a Highlanders fan that is the best we can ever hope for.

The guys who will make or break the long-term in my eyes are Pledger and Mika Muliaina. Which will take several years to really land. Clubs really need to develop their own 10s. The good ones hardly ever leave their home franchises.

Chris

Shaun Kempson is an interesting one The Crusaders thought he was too small and invested in Manumaua Letiu and Eli Oduryan. Shaun has good skills but size may hold him back he has been through a rough time with his dad passing away in Christchurch a couple of years back a good man around the Canterbury rugby scene,He never saw his boy play above schoolboy level.

SouthernMann

Article on Shaun Kempton. Couple of opportunities with other franchises, Crusaders and Blues.

Big work on is his size and physicality

https://www.thepress.co.nz/sport/360646169/southlander-stoked-be-part-new-zealand-under-20s

Bovidae

I'd be interested to know how tall/heavy Kempton is. I didn't think that Letiu was that big either having seen both play for the 2023 NZS team.

Chris

@SouthernMann said in Highlanders 2025:

Article on Shaun Kempton. Couple of opportunities with other franchises, Crusaders and Blues.

Big work on is his size and physicality

https://www.thepress.co.nz/sport/360646169/southlander-stoked-be-part-new-zealand-under-20s

Yeah Academy spot at the Crusaders not a WTG contract.
or a Rookie training contract they went to Manumaua Letiu and Eli Oduryan.

SouthernMann

@Chris said in Highlanders 2025:

@SouthernMann said in Highlanders 2025:

Article on Shaun Kempton. Couple of opportunities with other franchises, Crusaders and Blues.

Big work on is his size and physicality

https://www.thepress.co.nz/sport/360646169/southlander-stoked-be-part-new-zealand-under-20s

Yeah Academy spot at the Crusaders not a WTG contract.
or a Rookie training contract they went to Manumaua Letiu and Eli Oduryan.

And there isn't really anything splitting those three.

Chris

@SouthernMann said in Highlanders 2025:

@Chris said in Highlanders 2025:

@SouthernMann said in Highlanders 2025:

Article on Shaun Kempton. Couple of opportunities with other franchises, Crusaders and Blues.

Big work on is his size and physicality

https://www.thepress.co.nz/sport/360646169/southlander-stoked-be-part-new-zealand-under-20s

Yeah Academy spot at the Crusaders not a WTG contract.
or a Rookie training contract they went to Manumaua Letiu and Eli Oduryan.

And there isn't really anything splitting those three.

Yeah a bit different for me, Shaun is a good bloke I hope he goes well but I would have picked the other two.

SouthernMann

@Bovidae said in Highlanders 2025:

I'd be interested to know how tall/heavy Kempton is. I didn't think that Letiu was that big either having seen both play for the 2023 NZS team.

At the moment I'd say he will be lucky to be 95kg. Needs to get those power gains while not losing his ability to run like an outside back

KiwiInLondon

@frugby said in Highlanders 2025:

@Kiwiwomble said in Highlanders 2025:

@frugby pointing to the guys currently not winning regularly doesnt help things

You have to be patient. This squad (particularly in the forwards) is still two years off coming into its prime.

Because I am so confident in this, a Potential Highlanders Squad by 2027 (Bold Indicates Local/U20):

Hookers:
Vikena (25)
Bell (27)
Taylor (23)

Props:
de Groot (28)
Bartlett (24)
Loosehead

Ma'u (26)
Kautai (30)
Tighthead

Locks:
Holland (24)
Tengblad (21)
Dunshea (31)
Lock

Loose Forwards:
Haig (25)
Withy (26)
Howden (26)
Stodart (23)
Lasaqa (25)
Number Eight
Openside
Loose Forward

Halfbacks:
Pledger (21)
Fakatava (27)
Lennox (23)

First Fives:
Millar (24)
Robinson (27)
Muliaina (20)

Midfielders:
Tavatavanawai (29)
J Whaanga (23)
Harvey (22)
Midfielder
Midfielder

Outside Backs:
Ratumaitavuki-Kneepkens (25)
Hurley (21)
Tangitau (24)
Nareki (29)
Winger
Winger

If 2026 was to be another improvement, then you might even see some guys stick around as squad options for 2027 rather than heading offshore. Tangitau is going to be the big piece of the jigsaw if you want to compete for the title, because he is impossible to replace. I genuinely believe this squad is as good as you can cope for in this day and age where talent ID is so much better.

This is all assuming that these guys stick around in Dunedin. That’s a big if. Loose 3-4 key players to other clubs and the whole plan goes down the drain.

There comes a point in a career where you can either stick with the small up and coming team that’s building or jump ship somewhere that’s already there. How many of the players bleed Otago through and through? Haig and Holland come to mind as two players that have limited connection to the region.

Grooter

@KiwiInLondon hasn't Haig lived in Dunedin since he was 13? As for Holland he's going to be the 1st landers & Otago All black since god knows, Josh Ioane? So I would hope the lad shows some loyalty to the the environment that gave him opportunity as a young man.

KiwiInLondon

@Grooter said in Highlanders 2025:

@KiwiInLondon hasn't Haig lived in Dunedin since he was 13? As for Holland he's going to be the 1st landers & Otago All black since god knows, Josh Ioane? So I would hope the lad shows some loyalty to the the environment that gave him opportunity as a young man.

You'd hope so but I think the environment in professional rugby is becoming increasingly transactional. So you never know.

frugby

Should we be concerned about last night? I don't think so, but something which has crossed my mind, is how important it is that we improve for the end of the season. If we play like we did in that 20 block after the break for the next few weeks, I fear the results we might suffer, and what that might do to the long-term confidence of some of these players.

I'd still like to think that the Moana and Canes games are very winnable, and we should be competitive at home, but we've got to find another gear.

Who starts at 10 this week will be interesting.

Grooter

Feel for Tavatavanawai his tank is near on empty, think he has played all but 20 minutes this season. bare with my ramblings I feel like at this stage last season certain guys like Millar and Te Hiwi looked fine at super now maybe regressing? Was Kenny Lynn a coach that delivered clearer communication to those boys? even a player I really rate Haig was frustrating last night giving away needless penalties. I don't really know guess I just watch in hope more than anything, frustrating at times Fakatava or TUJ will make a break but there's no support. as a fan I just plead they avoid the spoon I couldn't live that down

SouthernMann

@frugby

The question around 10 isn't both for the rest of the season and the next couple of years.

Robinson and Millar play two very different games. Robinson works better in a flatter attacking backline. Isn't great under the high ball and had a poor few games prior to being dropped.

Millar is a fantastic kicking 10. Who sits deep in the pocket. Not great under the high ball either. Issues with his defence and attacking play.

Due to the style we are trying to play. Robinson is probably the better fit to start. On teether hand flipping between 10s isn't great for continuity.

Mika Muliaina shouldn't be seen as a 2026 option. I can see a world where he is pretty much a fulltime member though without being contracted. If I'm correct he will still be eligible for NZ U18s this year. He might get some game time for Southland this year.

The other option is to say let's see what Finn Hurley can do there. Not a solution for this year of course because he'd need time in the saddle. This comes down to the idea around who are our six best players between 10 and 15 and making them fit in.

KiwiInLondon

@SouthernMann said in Highlanders 2025:

@frugby

The question around 10 isn't both for the rest of the season and the next couple of years.

Robinson and Millar play two very different games. Robinson works better in a flatter attacking backline. Isn't great under the high ball and had a poor few games prior to being dropped.

Millar is a fantastic kicking 10. Who sits deep in the pocket. Not great under the high ball either. Issues with his defence and attacking play.

Due to the style we are trying to play. Robinson is probably the better fit to start. On teether hand flipping between 10s isn't great for continuity.

Mika Muliaina shouldn't be seen as a 2026 option. I can see a world where he is pretty much a fulltime member though without being contracted. If I'm correct he will still be eligible for NZ U18s this year. He might get some game time for Southland this year.

The other option is to say let's see what Finn Hurley can do there. Not a solution for this year of course because he'd need time in the saddle. This comes down to the idea around who are our six best players between 10 and 15 and making them fit in.

That style you refer to, what exactly is that style?

SouthernMann

@KiwiInLondon said in Highlanders 2025:

@SouthernMann said in Highlanders 2025:

@frugby

The question around 10 isn't both for the rest of the season and the next couple of years.

Robinson and Millar play two very different games. Robinson works better in a flatter attacking backline. Isn't great under the high ball and had a poor few games prior to being dropped.

Millar is a fantastic kicking 10. Who sits deep in the pocket. Not great under the high ball either. Issues with his defence and attacking play.

Due to the style we are trying to play. Robinson is probably the better fit to start. On teether hand flipping between 10s isn't great for continuity.

Mika Muliaina shouldn't be seen as a 2026 option. I can see a world where he is pretty much a fulltime member though without being contracted. If I'm correct he will still be eligible for NZ U18s this year. He might get some game time for Southland this year.

The other option is to say let's see what Finn Hurley can do there. Not a solution for this year of course because he'd need time in the saddle. This comes down to the idea around who are our six best players between 10 and 15 and making them fit in.

That style you refer to, what exactly is that style?

Broadly I think we have played our best when we have played reasonably flat. Slightly ad-hoc.

Some second man plays. Looking to find the two or three guys who are game breakers. It is all about finding room for those guys. At times we have played some really good attacking rugby.

We probably best when we were putting up contestable kicks from halfback.

With the Robinson v Millar. Millar sits deeper. Is more likely to primarily be a kicking 10. I'm pretty open, I don't think either is the answer. But we need to find a solution and stick to it. Flipping between the two or others won't be a decent solution.

KiwiInLondon

@SouthernMann said in Highlanders 2025:

@KiwiInLondon said in Highlanders 2025:

@SouthernMann said in Highlanders 2025:

@frugby

The question around 10 isn't both for the rest of the season and the next couple of years.

Robinson and Millar play two very different games. Robinson works better in a flatter attacking backline. Isn't great under the high ball and had a poor few games prior to being dropped.

Millar is a fantastic kicking 10. Who sits deep in the pocket. Not great under the high ball either. Issues with his defence and attacking play.

Due to the style we are trying to play. Robinson is probably the better fit to start. On teether hand flipping between 10s isn't great for continuity.

Mika Muliaina shouldn't be seen as a 2026 option. I can see a world where he is pretty much a fulltime member though without being contracted. If I'm correct he will still be eligible for NZ U18s this year. He might get some game time for Southland this year.

The other option is to say let's see what Finn Hurley can do there. Not a solution for this year of course because he'd need time in the saddle. This comes down to the idea around who are our six best players between 10 and 15 and making them fit in.

That style you refer to, what exactly is that style?

Broadly I think we have played our best when we have played reasonably flat. Slightly ad-hoc.

Some second man plays. Looking to find the two or three guys who are game breakers. It is all about finding room for those guys. At times we have played some really good attacking rugby.

With the Robinson v Millar. Millar sits deeper. Is more likely to primarily be a kicking 10. I'm pretty open, I don't think either is the answer. But we need to find a solution and stick to it. Flipping between the two or others won't be a decent solution.

So a standard second receiver behind forward runners who sweep behind and pass it to guys what can dent the line?

Is that a sufficient game plan to win at a super rugby level? Sounds very NPC to me. Does that work after 3-4 phases against a set defence?

Can you point to any game where we have gone 3-4 + phases and actually manipulated the defence and created tries aside from individual brilliance of a few backs?

And what’s the game plan on defence? Is it to constantly leave 4-5 on 1 overlaps on the outside? The wide shots of Finau and Boshier try tells a damning tale of our defence system. Haig for two games in a row now, and he was average yesterday yes, but I feel quite sorry for him when he’s making 3-4 backs by himself

SouthernMann

@KiwiInLondon said in Highlanders 2025:

@SouthernMann said in Highlanders 2025:

@KiwiInLondon said in Highlanders 2025:

@SouthernMann said in Highlanders 2025:

@frugby

The question around 10 isn't both for the rest of the season and the next couple of years.

Robinson and Millar play two very different games. Robinson works better in a flatter attacking backline. Isn't great under the high ball and had a poor few games prior to being dropped.

Millar is a fantastic kicking 10. Who sits deep in the pocket. Not great under the high ball either. Issues with his defence and attacking play.

Due to the style we are trying to play. Robinson is probably the better fit to start. On teether hand flipping between 10s isn't great for continuity.

Mika Muliaina shouldn't be seen as a 2026 option. I can see a world where he is pretty much a fulltime member though without being contracted. If I'm correct he will still be eligible for NZ U18s this year. He might get some game time for Southland this year.

The other option is to say let's see what Finn Hurley can do there. Not a solution for this year of course because he'd need time in the saddle. This comes down to the idea around who are our six best players between 10 and 15 and making them fit in.

That style you refer to, what exactly is that style?

Broadly I think we have played our best when we have played reasonably flat. Slightly ad-hoc.

Some second man plays. Looking to find the two or three guys who are game breakers. It is all about finding room for those guys. At times we have played some really good attacking rugby.

With the Robinson v Millar. Millar sits deeper. Is more likely to primarily be a kicking 10. I'm pretty open, I don't think either is the answer. But we need to find a solution and stick to it. Flipping between the two or others won't be a decent solution.

So a standard second receiver behind forward runners who sweep behind and pass it to guys what can dent the line?

Is that a sufficient game plan to win at a super rugby level? Sounds very NPC to me. Does that work after 3-4 phases against a set defence?

Can you point to any game where we have gone 3-4 + phases and actually manipulated the defence and created tries aside from individual brilliance of a few backs?

And what’s the game plan on defence? Is it to constantly leave 4-5 on 1 overlaps on the outside? The wide shots of Finau and Boshier try tells a damning tale of our defence system. Haig for two games in a row now, and he was average yesterday yes, but I feel quite sorry for him when he’s making 3-4 backs by himself

Off the top of my head I can't. In fact the time when he should have. Against the Hurricanes it didn't come close.

Lasqa has been a strong channel runner. He has effectively been another midfielder on attack. The problem is we are running very similar players in the midfield, whether it be Jim, Tele'a or TUJ. Who is the creative player in the backline who is putting players into gaps. We effectively don't have one. A bit of a nuffy at 10, and just power midfielders.

Defensively is a bit of a shit show at the moment. Like you. I have been a bit disappointed to see Haig regularly covering 20m in wide channels with two or three guys coming at him. We have seen a team that scraps really well for 40 minutes. Then battles.

The reds game was a weird one. Where our scrum was the problem, and it didn't matter what we did the scrum just meant we were going to lose.

The Silver Fern

Highlanders 2025