All Blacks v France I
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@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks v France I:
I think doing the basics right is incredibly important but I also expect All Blacks do be doing more than just the basics.
The problem is there are a number of players in NZ who can't do the basics of their core roll well. And that includes ABs.
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@Chris said in All Blacks v France I:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v France I:
@Chris said in All Blacks v France I:
Finau for a big unit really added no impact in this game,He was passive in the tackle he got knocked back a few times.And went no where forward.
Even though Vai'i maybe found out as a bit slow at 6 in the harder games, he was 100% better than Finau.Hard disagree. He dropped an early one cold and I was ready to write him off.
But after that he ran fucking hard and made yards in tight. He has a future i think.
Nah didn’t see any of that to me he was pretty weak.
People often see what they look for.
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@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v France I:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v France I:
For the same reason as savea i reckon I'm close to done with DMac.
I can understand the allure, when it goes right it goes very right, but is it balanced out by the untold errors and created pressure?
I'm quite torn on DMac and Beauden, I caused a bit of a stir when I said picking Beauden for this test wasn't all that controversial as I think they are much of a muchness really. Personally I'd have DMac starting at 10 just on account of his kicking game, as we can struggle to get out of our half when on the back foot otherwise.
But outside of that both players go from the sublime to the ridiculous far too often for test match footy.
Hard disagree. McKenzie kicked the ball away badly once (and fortuitously grabbed the rebound). He also threw an intercept - which really doesn't count, as it was under penalty advantage so why not.
Aside from that , his decision-making was pretty conservative - he took contact in preference to trying too much on several occasions.
Beauden tried too much - and it's always kicking with him - about half a dozen times. Always a turnover. -
@reprobate I wasn't talking about this game specifically, I was referring to them playing 10. DMac had a lot more space and touched the ball less this game as he was fullback so hard to compare based on that. I actually think both are better suited to 15.
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@frugby said in All Blacks v France I:
@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks v France I:
Holland's received a lot of praise but I was a little bit underwhelmed.
He didn't really put a foot wrong but he also didn't do anything to suggest he's a better option that Lord or Tuipulotu at this stage. I'm absolutely not saying he shouldn't be in there, I'm as keen to see him given a go as anyone else and I'd love for him to be the new Brodie Retallick, but I've not yet (yet is key, obviously) seen anything from Holland to suggest he's anything more than a safe pair of hands in the second row.
Again, very happy to get him getting some minutes and would certainly keep giving him time in the saddle, but it's a bit unfair that we expect the loose forward to all be dynamic carriers of the ball or threats at the breakdown when the bar for Holland seems so low?
He dominated the lineout in a way Tuipulotu couldn’t, and Lord hasn’t. He works hard and makes a ton of tackles (more than both those two).
What are you looking for from him? Locks don’t tend to make line breaks…
He did everything you want from a tight lock - won lineouts dependably, tackled accurately and strongly, cleaned well at rucks and pushed hard in scrums.
TBH for a debut and start he did bloody well.
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@MN5 said in All Blacks v France I:
Holland is a very passive ball carrier for a big unit
my only comment, as everything else seems to have been said, a few people said similar and true although i thought it looked like he was just playing it safe in his first test, go to ground, secure and recycle the ball, i hope we wait until his tenure is counted in matches and not minutes before hes judged too harshly
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@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks v France I:
I think doing the basics right is incredibly important but I also expect All Blacks do be doing more than just the basics. As I say, hopefully Holland develops into a player that's a bit more than just a safe pair of hands.
Again, I just think there's an interesting double standard between what we expect from a lock (in particular, this lock) and what we expect from any of our loose forwards. Retallick and Whitelock were certainly much more than just busy and accurate (and from right at the starts of their careers too). Holland may get there after only a couple of games too.
Retallick was okayish when he started out but it took some time and that’s partly why I think the coaches rotated him out of the starting XV those first couple of seasons. But he had great size and his mobility improved out of sight.
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@booboo said in All Blacks v France I:
@Chris said in All Blacks v France I:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v France I:
@Chris said in All Blacks v France I:
Finau for a big unit really added no impact in this game,He was passive in the tackle he got knocked back a few times.And went no where forward.
Even though Vai'i maybe found out as a bit slow at 6 in the harder games, he was 100% better than Finau.Hard disagree. He dropped an early one cold and I was ready to write him off.
But after that he ran fucking hard and made yards in tight. He has a future i think.
Nah didn’t see any of that to me he was pretty weak.
People often see what they look for.
that is true both ways but I have no real option on Finau I hoped he would be the player we need at 6, but I was disappointed again on what I saw as a weak performance again.
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I'm amused that we expect a debutant lock born 22 years ago and rushed into the national team as soon as possible, being compared to two of the greatest ever AB locks. And he didn't spend all his life playing rugby in NZ-he arrived here about 4 or 5 years ago, didn't he?
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@reprobate said in All Blacks v France I:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v France I:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v France I:
For the same reason as savea i reckon I'm close to done with DMac.
I can understand the allure, when it goes right it goes very right, but is it balanced out by the untold errors and created pressure?
I'm quite torn on DMac and Beauden, I caused a bit of a stir when I said picking Beauden for this test wasn't all that controversial as I think they are much of a muchness really. Personally I'd have DMac starting at 10 just on account of his kicking game, as we can struggle to get out of our half when on the back foot otherwise.
But outside of that both players go from the sublime to the ridiculous far too often for test match footy.
Hard disagree. McKenzie kicked the ball away badly once (and fortuitously grabbed the rebound). He also threw an intercept - which really doesn't count, as it was under penalty advantage so why not.
Aside from that , his decision-making was pretty conservative - he took contact in preference to trying too much on several occasions.My takeaway was he danced around and then flat footed just popped it to a stationary forward to get smashed.
I'm not as forgiving of the intercept since he took a poor option and managed to single out the only French defender with at least three other All Blacks, including an unmarked Ardie inside of him.
Again, a player best suited for the final 20mins in the hope we've created space.
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@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v France I:
I'm amused that we expect a debutant lock born 22 years ago and rushed into the national team as soon as possible, being compared to two of the greatest ever AB locks. And he didn't spend all his life playing rugby in NZ-he arrived here about 4 or 5 years ago, didn't he?
Getting rinsed on the fern is part and parcel of being an allblack.
He should have done his homework before he signed up for the gig.
If you want the rainbow you need to put up with a bit of rain Fabian.
Welcome to test footy…on and off the field son
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@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks v France I:
@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks v France I:
@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks v France I:
Holland's received a lot of praise but I was a little bit underwhelmed.
He didn't really put a foot wrong but he also didn't do anything to suggest he's a better option that Lord or Tuipulotu at this stage. I'm absolutely not saying he shouldn't be in there, I'm as keen to see him given a go as anyone else and I'd love for him to be the new Brodie Retallick, but I've not yet (yet is key, obviously) seen anything from Holland to suggest he's anything more than a safe pair of hands in the second row.
Again, very happy to get him getting some minutes and would certainly keep giving him time in the saddle, but it's a bit unfair that we expect the loose forward to all be dynamic carriers of the ball or threats at the breakdown when the bar for Holland seems so low?
Topping the tackle charts with 17, topped the lineouts won with 7 and carried 13 times
When you're used as the main lineout jumper, it makes sense you win the most lineouts... That's sort of the bare minimum for a lock.
As for the rest? Well, as I say, loose forwards on here seem to get judged to a completely different standard. He made 1.38 metres per carry - 17th in the squad and 8th amongst the forwards. Ethan Blackadder would get raked over the coals for that.
As I say, I'm happy to persist with him because he's young, but I don't think he did anything particularly notable on Saturday.
Fucking hell
tough crowd -
@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks v France I:
Again, I just think there's an interesting double standard between what we expect from a lock (in particular, this lock) and what we expect from any of our loose forwards.
It's not a double standard - they are completely different roles.
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@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks v France I:
@frugby said in All Blacks v France I:
@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks v France I:
I hugely disagree about him dominating the lineout. I think Tuipulotu or Lord would've gone just as well against that French side.Holland is basically the Blackadder of locks.
Holy shit I’ve officially heard it all now. This might go down as one of the worst takes of 2025 on the fern.
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this is a wild angle to take, we're being hyper critical of someone on debut for not doing anything wrong...just not being as awesome as some of the best locks in AB history
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@antipodean said in All Blacks v France I:
@reprobate said in All Blacks v France I:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v France I:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v France I:
For the same reason as savea i reckon I'm close to done with DMac.
I can understand the allure, when it goes right it goes very right, but is it balanced out by the untold errors and created pressure?
I'm quite torn on DMac and Beauden, I caused a bit of a stir when I said picking Beauden for this test wasn't all that controversial as I think they are much of a muchness really. Personally I'd have DMac starting at 10 just on account of his kicking game, as we can struggle to get out of our half when on the back foot otherwise.
But outside of that both players go from the sublime to the ridiculous far too often for test match footy.
Hard disagree. McKenzie kicked the ball away badly once (and fortuitously grabbed the rebound). He also threw an intercept - which really doesn't count, as it was under penalty advantage so why not.
Aside from that , his decision-making was pretty conservative - he took contact in preference to trying too much on several occasions.My takeaway was he danced around and then flat footed just popped it to a stationary forward to get smashed.
An the same thing can be described as: he looked for gaps, and made/took a few half-gaps - and when there wasn't one he recycled and maintained possession.
And are you going to rubbish other players for similar/worse poor options? How about Roigard for ignoring Jordie inside him who would have scored? And for his bizarre kick to nobody on attack?
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@Landers92 said in All Blacks v France I:
@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks v France I:
@frugby said in All Blacks v France I:
@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks v France I:
I hugely disagree about him dominating the lineout. I think Tuipulotu or Lord would've gone just as well against that French side.Holland is basically the Blackadder of locks.
Holy shit I’ve officially heard it all now. This might go down as one of the worst takes of 2025 on the fern.
Not really, the fern hates people who work hard. We want highlights!
