All Blacks v France I
-
@Mr-Fish it's a really weird take, that a guy that did everything right in his debut test at a young age in a struggling team, including topping some critical stats - was underwhelming because he didn't make a Lomu like run or two. Be worth comparing with Vaai....
@Bones said in All Blacks v France I:
@Mr-Fish it's a really weird take, that a guy that did everything right in his debut test at a young age in a struggling team, including topping some critical stats - was underwhelming because he didn't make a Lomu like run or two. Be worth comparing with Vaai....
Don't know who was expecting him to make any Lomu-like runs?
Again, just funny that Blackadder could make all his tackles, hit every breakdown, carry 20 times and he'd again be written off as 'busy but ineffective'. Maybe if our locks were better with ball in hand we wouldn't be so reliant on our loose forwards making all the good carries. You yourself @Bones said having a more dynamic front row could have resulted in a 7-point swing.
I've been pretty open that he could grow into a great player and that I think he should get more minutes. I think Vaa'i was pretty average for his first couple of years and it was only with regular game time that he started to step up.
Just to reiterate what I said in my first post on the matter:
He didn't really put a foot wrong but he also didn't do anything to suggest he's a better option that Lord or Tuipulotu at this stage. I'm absolutely not saying he shouldn't be in there, I'm as keen to see him given a go as anyone else and I'd love for him to be the new Brodie Retallick, but I've not yet (yet is key, obviously) seen anything from Holland to suggest he's anything more than a safe pair of hands in the second row.
-
@Bones said in All Blacks v France I:
@Mr-Fish it's a really weird take, that a guy that did everything right in his debut test at a young age in a struggling team, including topping some critical stats - was underwhelming because he didn't make a Lomu like run or two. Be worth comparing with Vaai....
Don't know who was expecting him to make any Lomu-like runs?
Again, just funny that Blackadder could make all his tackles, hit every breakdown, carry 20 times and he'd again be written off as 'busy but ineffective'. Maybe if our locks were better with ball in hand we wouldn't be so reliant on our loose forwards making all the good carries. You yourself @Bones said having a more dynamic front row could have resulted in a 7-point swing.
I've been pretty open that he could grow into a great player and that I think he should get more minutes. I think Vaa'i was pretty average for his first couple of years and it was only with regular game time that he started to step up.
Just to reiterate what I said in my first post on the matter:
He didn't really put a foot wrong but he also didn't do anything to suggest he's a better option that Lord or Tuipulotu at this stage. I'm absolutely not saying he shouldn't be in there, I'm as keen to see him given a go as anyone else and I'd love for him to be the new Brodie Retallick, but I've not yet (yet is key, obviously) seen anything from Holland to suggest he's anything more than a safe pair of hands in the second row.
-
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks v France I:
@booboo said in All Blacks v France I:
People often see what they look for.
No they don’t….
For what it’s worth I don’t have anything against either Beaudy or DMac but both have shown flaws in their play at 1st 5 that largely mirror each other - trying too hard to create the big play or appearing to want to score on almost every phase, mixed bag kicking game.
They are both excellent when it comes to broken play footy and instinctual play in those scenarios. We’ve seen some phenomenal play from both in that regard. But a more balanced methodical approach whilst having those broken play moments is what is needed. I saw more of that balanced approach from Caleb Muntz yesterday for Fiji than Beaudy for example. Not to discount some of the very good plays Beaudy did make.
I hold my breath every time I watch these two guys play 10.
I hope that's a real product.
I think the same can be said for Mo in test rugby outside of his franchise rugby pond where he is easily the big fish. I never really took a side in the Mo v BB battles during the Foster era because I didn't think one was better than the other. So maybe that's just the state of 10s in NZ rugby these days?
I have more confidence in DMac being able to play a balanced approach then BB because I've seen him do it often over the last few years for the Chiefs.
@Nepia said in All Blacks v France I:
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks v France I:
@booboo said in All Blacks v France I:
People often see what they look for.
No they don’t….
For what it’s worth I don’t have anything against either Beaudy or DMac but both have shown flaws in their play at 1st 5 that largely mirror each other - trying too hard to create the big play or appearing to want to score on almost every phase, mixed bag kicking game.
They are both excellent when it comes to broken play footy and instinctual play in those scenarios. We’ve seen some phenomenal play from both in that regard. But a more balanced methodical approach whilst having those broken play moments is what is needed. I saw more of that balanced approach from Caleb Muntz yesterday for Fiji than Beaudy for example. Not to discount some of the very good plays Beaudy did make.
I hold my breath every time I watch these two guys play 10.
I hope that's a real product.
I think the same can be said for Mo in test rugby outside of his franchise rugby pond where he is easily the big fish. I never really took a side in the Mo v BB battles during the Foster era because I didn't think one was better than the other. So maybe that's just the state of 10s in NZ rugby these days?
I have more confidence in DMac being able to play a balanced approach then BB because I've seen him do it often over the last few years for the Chiefs.
It's more than that - people treat the two as comparable as both having had sooo many AB chances and not proven themselves. It's bullshit.
Beauden first started at 10 for the ABs in 2014. 20-fucking-14! He had his 7th start at 10 for the ABs in 2016. McKenzie probably had his 7th start last year I'd say? Last year was certainly the first time he has ever started two in a row.
BB has had far, far, far more opportunities than McKenzie. These guys are not in the same situation at all. One is a 100% known quantity at test level and is never going to be the player we want at 10, the other has shown glimpses and needs more opportunities. -
@Mr-Fish yeah, Blackadder in his umpteenth go as a seasoned player in an entirely different position is prolly not the win you think it is.
@Bones said in All Blacks v France I:
@Mr-Fish yeah, Blackadder in his umpteenth go as a seasoned player in an entirely different position is prolly not the win you think it is.
He really hasn't had umpteen goes at test level at all.
-
@Bones said in All Blacks v France I:
@Mr-Fish yeah, Blackadder in his umpteenth go as a seasoned player in an entirely different position is prolly not the win you think it is.
He really hasn't had umpteen goes at test level at all.
@reprobate said in All Blacks v France I:
@Bones said in All Blacks v France I:
@Mr-Fish yeah, Blackadder in his umpteenth go as a seasoned player in an entirely different position is prolly not the win you think it is.
He really hasn't had umpteen goes at test level at all.
Only because he keeps getting hurt
-
@reprobate said in All Blacks v France I:
@Bones said in All Blacks v France I:
@Mr-Fish yeah, Blackadder in his umpteenth go as a seasoned player in an entirely different position is prolly not the win you think it is.
He really hasn't had umpteen goes at test level at all.
Only because he keeps getting hurt
@canefan said in All Blacks v France I:
@reprobate said in All Blacks v France I:
@Bones said in All Blacks v France I:
@Mr-Fish yeah, Blackadder in his umpteenth go as a seasoned player in an entirely different position is prolly not the win you think it is.
He really hasn't had umpteen goes at test level at all.
Only because he keeps getting hurt
Agreed, and for multiple coaches.
Fact remains, he's not really a known quantity at test level because he hasn't played that much. -
@Bones said in All Blacks v France I:
@Mr-Fish yeah, Blackadder in his umpteenth go as a seasoned player in an entirely different position is prolly not the win you think it is.
He really hasn't had umpteen goes at test level at all.
@reprobate said in All Blacks v France I:
@Bones said in All Blacks v France I:
@Mr-Fish yeah, Blackadder in his umpteenth go as a seasoned player in an entirely different position is prolly not the win you think it is.
He really hasn't had umpteen goes at test level at all.
How many is your umpteen? Anything double digits is starting to get up there for mine - and we're comparing with 1.
-
@Bones said in All Blacks v France I:
@Mr-Fish yeah, Blackadder in his umpteenth go as a seasoned player in an entirely different position is prolly not the win you think it is.
He really hasn't had umpteen goes at test level at all.
@reprobate said in All Blacks v France I:
@Bones said in All Blacks v France I:
@Mr-Fish yeah, Blackadder in his umpteenth go as a seasoned player in an entirely different position is prolly not the win you think it is.
He really hasn't had umpteen goes at test level at all.
- That's my umpteen in a multitude of foreign languages...
https://rugbydatabase.co.nz/player/index.php?playerId=157
That''s two thirds of Akira Ioane's (21).
https://www.rugbydatabase.co.nz/player/index.php?playerId=17and whaddya know, the same test caps (well, NZ ones), as Hoskins Sotutu
https://www.rugbydatabase.co.nz/player/index.php?playerId=74 - That's my umpteen in a multitude of foreign languages...
-
https://www.tiktok.com/@trytimerugby/video/7401903495399345440
Watch Ethan dominate in the tackle, 10 secs in. Same as he did vs Caleb Clarke in the SR SF
-
@Nepia said in All Blacks v France I:
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks v France I:
@booboo said in All Blacks v France I:
People often see what they look for.
No they don’t….
For what it’s worth I don’t have anything against either Beaudy or DMac but both have shown flaws in their play at 1st 5 that largely mirror each other - trying too hard to create the big play or appearing to want to score on almost every phase, mixed bag kicking game.
They are both excellent when it comes to broken play footy and instinctual play in those scenarios. We’ve seen some phenomenal play from both in that regard. But a more balanced methodical approach whilst having those broken play moments is what is needed. I saw more of that balanced approach from Caleb Muntz yesterday for Fiji than Beaudy for example. Not to discount some of the very good plays Beaudy did make.
I hold my breath every time I watch these two guys play 10.
I hope that's a real product.
I think the same can be said for Mo in test rugby outside of his franchise rugby pond where he is easily the big fish. I never really took a side in the Mo v BB battles during the Foster era because I didn't think one was better than the other. So maybe that's just the state of 10s in NZ rugby these days?
I have more confidence in DMac being able to play a balanced approach then BB because I've seen him do it often over the last few years for the Chiefs.
It's more than that - people treat the two as comparable as both having had sooo many AB chances and not proven themselves. It's bullshit.
Beauden first started at 10 for the ABs in 2014. 20-fucking-14! He had his 7th start at 10 for the ABs in 2016. McKenzie probably had his 7th start last year I'd say? Last year was certainly the first time he has ever started two in a row.
BB has had far, far, far more opportunities than McKenzie. These guys are not in the same situation at all. One is a 100% known quantity at test level and is never going to be the player we want at 10, the other has shown glimpses and needs more opportunities.@reprobate said in All Blacks v France I:
@Nepia said in All Blacks v France I:
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks v France I:
@booboo said in All Blacks v France I:
People often see what they look for.
No they don’t….
For what it’s worth I don’t have anything against either Beaudy or DMac but both have shown flaws in their play at 1st 5 that largely mirror each other - trying too hard to create the big play or appearing to want to score on almost every phase, mixed bag kicking game.
They are both excellent when it comes to broken play footy and instinctual play in those scenarios. We’ve seen some phenomenal play from both in that regard. But a more balanced methodical approach whilst having those broken play moments is what is needed. I saw more of that balanced approach from Caleb Muntz yesterday for Fiji than Beaudy for example. Not to discount some of the very good plays Beaudy did make.
I hold my breath every time I watch these two guys play 10.
I hope that's a real product.
I think the same can be said for Mo in test rugby outside of his franchise rugby pond where he is easily the big fish. I never really took a side in the Mo v BB battles during the Foster era because I didn't think one was better than the other. So maybe that's just the state of 10s in NZ rugby these days?
I have more confidence in DMac being able to play a balanced approach then BB because I've seen him do it often over the last few years for the Chiefs.
It's more than that - people treat the two as comparable as both having had sooo many AB chances and not proven themselves. It's bullshit.
Beauden first started at 10 for the ABs in 2014. 20-fucking-14! He had his 7th start at 10 for the ABs in 2016. McKenzie probably had his 7th start last year I'd say? Last year was certainly the first time he has ever started two in a row.
BB has had far, far, far more opportunities than McKenzie. These guys are not in the same situation at all. One is a 100% known quantity at test level and is never going to be the player we want at 10, the other has shown glimpses and needs more opportunitiesDMac sort of shat the bed in the quarter final and final of Super rugby this year. I agree he needs a few more chances, but the jury is well and truly out on whether he can stand strong and not do silly shit when his pack isn't dominating.
-
@reprobate said in All Blacks v France I:
@Nepia said in All Blacks v France I:
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks v France I:
@booboo said in All Blacks v France I:
People often see what they look for.
No they don’t….
For what it’s worth I don’t have anything against either Beaudy or DMac but both have shown flaws in their play at 1st 5 that largely mirror each other - trying too hard to create the big play or appearing to want to score on almost every phase, mixed bag kicking game.
They are both excellent when it comes to broken play footy and instinctual play in those scenarios. We’ve seen some phenomenal play from both in that regard. But a more balanced methodical approach whilst having those broken play moments is what is needed. I saw more of that balanced approach from Caleb Muntz yesterday for Fiji than Beaudy for example. Not to discount some of the very good plays Beaudy did make.
I hold my breath every time I watch these two guys play 10.
I hope that's a real product.
I think the same can be said for Mo in test rugby outside of his franchise rugby pond where he is easily the big fish. I never really took a side in the Mo v BB battles during the Foster era because I didn't think one was better than the other. So maybe that's just the state of 10s in NZ rugby these days?
I have more confidence in DMac being able to play a balanced approach then BB because I've seen him do it often over the last few years for the Chiefs.
It's more than that - people treat the two as comparable as both having had sooo many AB chances and not proven themselves. It's bullshit.
Beauden first started at 10 for the ABs in 2014. 20-fucking-14! He had his 7th start at 10 for the ABs in 2016. McKenzie probably had his 7th start last year I'd say? Last year was certainly the first time he has ever started two in a row.
BB has had far, far, far more opportunities than McKenzie. These guys are not in the same situation at all. One is a 100% known quantity at test level and is never going to be the player we want at 10, the other has shown glimpses and needs more opportunitiesDMac sort of shat the bed in the quarter final and final of Super rugby this year. I agree he needs a few more chances, but the jury is well and truly out on whether he can stand strong and not do silly shit when his pack isn't dominating.
@Frank said in All Blacks v France I:
@reprobate said in All Blacks v France I:
@Nepia said in All Blacks v France I:
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks v France I:
@booboo said in All Blacks v France I:
People often see what they look for.
No they don’t….
For what it’s worth I don’t have anything against either Beaudy or DMac but both have shown flaws in their play at 1st 5 that largely mirror each other - trying too hard to create the big play or appearing to want to score on almost every phase, mixed bag kicking game.
They are both excellent when it comes to broken play footy and instinctual play in those scenarios. We’ve seen some phenomenal play from both in that regard. But a more balanced methodical approach whilst having those broken play moments is what is needed. I saw more of that balanced approach from Caleb Muntz yesterday for Fiji than Beaudy for example. Not to discount some of the very good plays Beaudy did make.
I hold my breath every time I watch these two guys play 10.
I hope that's a real product.
I think the same can be said for Mo in test rugby outside of his franchise rugby pond where he is easily the big fish. I never really took a side in the Mo v BB battles during the Foster era because I didn't think one was better than the other. So maybe that's just the state of 10s in NZ rugby these days?
I have more confidence in DMac being able to play a balanced approach then BB because I've seen him do it often over the last few years for the Chiefs.
It's more than that - people treat the two as comparable as both having had sooo many AB chances and not proven themselves. It's bullshit.
Beauden first started at 10 for the ABs in 2014. 20-fucking-14! He had his 7th start at 10 for the ABs in 2016. McKenzie probably had his 7th start last year I'd say? Last year was certainly the first time he has ever started two in a row.
BB has had far, far, far more opportunities than McKenzie. These guys are not in the same situation at all. One is a 100% known quantity at test level and is never going to be the player we want at 10, the other has shown glimpses and needs more opportunitiesDMac sort of shat the bed in the quarter final and final of Super rugby this year. I agree he needs a few more chances, but the jury is well and truly out on whether he can stand strong and not do silly shit when his pack isn't dominating.
BB also had a crap game in his SF
-
For the second test, though Tupaea did very well when he came in, Robertson should try something different with Big Jim on the bench. How many turnovers did the ABs win on saturday ? They need someone who is a menace at the breakdown. There are none in the forwards selected as Kirifi is not solid enough in that kind of phase against big forwards. Remember his game against the Brumbies in the quarter final. The problem with the NZ best jackalers is that none of them is AB material (Christie, Withy, Choat).
@cgrant you think that Tavatavanawai is more of a threat than Kirifi?
What sort of defensive shape are we taking to have him ruck hunting?
-
@cgrant you think that Tavatavanawai is more of a threat than Kirifi?
What sort of defensive shape are we taking to have him ruck hunting?
-
@reprobate said in All Blacks v France I:
@Nepia said in All Blacks v France I:
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks v France I:
@booboo said in All Blacks v France I:
People often see what they look for.
No they don’t….
For what it’s worth I don’t have anything against either Beaudy or DMac but both have shown flaws in their play at 1st 5 that largely mirror each other - trying too hard to create the big play or appearing to want to score on almost every phase, mixed bag kicking game.
They are both excellent when it comes to broken play footy and instinctual play in those scenarios. We’ve seen some phenomenal play from both in that regard. But a more balanced methodical approach whilst having those broken play moments is what is needed. I saw more of that balanced approach from Caleb Muntz yesterday for Fiji than Beaudy for example. Not to discount some of the very good plays Beaudy did make.
I hold my breath every time I watch these two guys play 10.
I hope that's a real product.
I think the same can be said for Mo in test rugby outside of his franchise rugby pond where he is easily the big fish. I never really took a side in the Mo v BB battles during the Foster era because I didn't think one was better than the other. So maybe that's just the state of 10s in NZ rugby these days?
I have more confidence in DMac being able to play a balanced approach then BB because I've seen him do it often over the last few years for the Chiefs.
It's more than that - people treat the two as comparable as both having had sooo many AB chances and not proven themselves. It's bullshit.
Beauden first started at 10 for the ABs in 2014. 20-fucking-14! He had his 7th start at 10 for the ABs in 2016. McKenzie probably had his 7th start last year I'd say? Last year was certainly the first time he has ever started two in a row.
BB has had far, far, far more opportunities than McKenzie. These guys are not in the same situation at all. One is a 100% known quantity at test level and is never going to be the player we want at 10, the other has shown glimpses and needs more opportunitiesDMac sort of shat the bed in the quarter final and final of Super rugby this year. I agree he needs a few more chances, but the jury is well and truly out on whether he can stand strong and not do silly shit when his pack isn't dominating.
@Frank said in All Blacks v France I:
@reprobate said in All Blacks v France I:
@Nepia said in All Blacks v France I:
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks v France I:
@booboo said in All Blacks v France I:
People often see what they look for.
No they don’t….
For what it’s worth I don’t have anything against either Beaudy or DMac but both have shown flaws in their play at 1st 5 that largely mirror each other - trying too hard to create the big play or appearing to want to score on almost every phase, mixed bag kicking game.
They are both excellent when it comes to broken play footy and instinctual play in those scenarios. We’ve seen some phenomenal play from both in that regard. But a more balanced methodical approach whilst having those broken play moments is what is needed. I saw more of that balanced approach from Caleb Muntz yesterday for Fiji than Beaudy for example. Not to discount some of the very good plays Beaudy did make.
I hold my breath every time I watch these two guys play 10.
I hope that's a real product.
I think the same can be said for Mo in test rugby outside of his franchise rugby pond where he is easily the big fish. I never really took a side in the Mo v BB battles during the Foster era because I didn't think one was better than the other. So maybe that's just the state of 10s in NZ rugby these days?
I have more confidence in DMac being able to play a balanced approach then BB because I've seen him do it often over the last few years for the Chiefs.
It's more than that - people treat the two as comparable as both having had sooo many AB chances and not proven themselves. It's bullshit.
Beauden first started at 10 for the ABs in 2014. 20-fucking-14! He had his 7th start at 10 for the ABs in 2016. McKenzie probably had his 7th start last year I'd say? Last year was certainly the first time he has ever started two in a row.
BB has had far, far, far more opportunities than McKenzie. These guys are not in the same situation at all. One is a 100% known quantity at test level and is never going to be the player we want at 10, the other has shown glimpses and needs more opportunitiesDMac sort of shat the bed in the quarter final and final of Super rugby this year. I agree he needs a few more chances, but the jury is well and truly out on whether he can stand strong and not do silly shit when his pack isn't dominating.
He was quiet and well looked after and his team was beaten. That's not ideal, but it's just not true to say he shat the bed or was doing silly shit. He wasn't dominant and he had been in the regular season, that's all. You could say the same for his forwards.
-
If people think Blackadder is a solution just go and watch the first game of Super Rugby this year, Kirifi completely runs over him. That probably sealed his fate IMO.
Certain players have had plenty of time in the jersey to make a statement and they haven’t taken their chance. It’s now time for these new guys to have a real crack at cementing their spots. Maybe instead of writing players off after one test, let’s give them a real chance instead of making changes every second game. To me that’s half the problem, we need some sort of consistency in selection.
-
If people think Blackadder is a solution just go and watch the first game of Super Rugby this year, Kirifi completely runs over him. That probably sealed his fate IMO.
Certain players have had plenty of time in the jersey to make a statement and they haven’t taken their chance. It’s now time for these new guys to have a real crack at cementing their spots. Maybe instead of writing players off after one test, let’s give them a real chance instead of making changes every second game. To me that’s half the problem, we need some sort of consistency in selection.
@Canes4life said in All Blacks v France I:
If people think Blackadder is a solution just go and watch the first game of Super Rugby this year, Kirifi completely runs over him. That probably sealed his fate IMO.
Certain players have had plenty of time in the jersey to make a statement and they haven’t taken their chance. It’s now time for these new guys to have a real crack at cementing their spots. Maybe instead of writing players off after one test, let’s give them a real chance instead of making changes every second game. To me that’s half the problem, we need some sort of consistency in selection.
Clarke ran over him in the SF
-
One tactical change the All Blacks may make is to bring Tavatavanawai into the matchday 23, purely because he can cover the wing to a better level than the other midfielders.
I'd argue that DMac coming on and Jordan sliding to the wing changed the way we would have played to a significant degree. If Jordan is your fullback, then ideally he shouldn't really be moving to the wing unless there is an injury IMO. I think it is preferable that unless Jordan gets injured, that when DMac comes on, he replaces Barrett.
A spine of Roigard, Barrett & DMac is too far in the direction of risk-taking and needs to be balanced with a safer pair of hands (Jordan).
-
@Duluth said in All Blacks v France I:
@reprobate said in All Blacks v France I:
Maybe they are more likely, but that doesn't really change things - you still get that lineout if you take 10 phases under advantage
Burning the advantage would be criminal though. 10 phases gets into a subjective ref call. Or, another example is a bad cleanout (foul play) and you lose everything. That is a risk in the current game.
I just object to the idea that everything is stupid and that teams don't actually look at these numbers. Getting to the preferred situation immediately is a tactical call that will be thought about
I'm sure they look at it, but isn't it pretty obvious that some other teams do press the advantage? Presumably they've come to a different conclusion, so it must be debatable at least.
@reprobate said in All Blacks v France I:
@Duluth said in All Blacks v France I:
@reprobate said in All Blacks v France I:
Maybe they are more likely, but that doesn't really change things - you still get that lineout if you take 10 phases under advantage
Burning the advantage would be criminal though. 10 phases gets into a subjective ref call. Or, another example is a bad cleanout (foul play) and you lose everything. That is a risk in the current game.
I just object to the idea that everything is stupid and that teams don't actually look at these numbers. Getting to the preferred situation immediately is a tactical call that will be thought about
I'm sure they look at it, but isn't it pretty obvious that some other teams do press the advantage? Presumably they've come to a different conclusion, so it must be debatable at least.
Do we know the stats on where on the field do teams elect to take certain options? Not stating anything with confidence, just exploring possible reasons.
