All Blacks v France III
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@brodean said in All Blacks v France 2:
Robertson's plan was to give everyone a run according to him.
Proctor has very much been a mixed bag.
Kirifi was picked on his ability to win turnovers and his good discipline. He hasn't won a single turnover so far and gave away 3 penalties in 20 minutes yesterday.
Yep, I heard the statement from coach, just saying I hate it.
I’d personally agree on Proctor, but I’d add that the consensus seems to be a decent T2 improvement on a fairly forgettable T1 - so why not give him another go to see if he can build on it? We know what ALB and Rieko offer there, let’s carry on with creating depth.
Kirifi looked so frustrated today arguing with the ref didn’t he?
@voodoo said in All Blacks v France 2:
@brodean said in All Blacks v France 2:
Robertson's plan was to give everyone a run according to him.
Proctor has very much been a mixed bag.
Kirifi was picked on his ability to win turnovers and his good discipline. He hasn't won a single turnover so far and gave away 3 penalties in 20 minutes yesterday.
Yep, I heard the statement from coach, just saying I hate it.
I’d personally agree on Proctor, but I’d add that the consensus seems to be a decent T2 improvement on a fairly forgettable T1 - so why not give him another go to see if he can build on it? We know what ALB and Rieko offer there, let’s carry on with creating depth.
Kirifi looked so frustrated today arguing with the ref didn’t he?
I'm pretty neutral on what happens with Proctor at the moment but it would seem that Proctor was a big part of their plan. The backline hasn't been great though and we got out to an early lead yesterday by keeping it tight.
I've always suspected that Kirifi would not go well with refs who are not Kiwis or Aussies. I doubt the coaches will appreciate the ongoing dialogue he was having with the ref
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@canefan said in All Blacks v France 2:
Razor is basically selecting how he should have last season. Better late than never. Somehow he needs to rotate BB out to take a look at Love. Maybe DMac to start then Love comes on for 30 minutes? Or be really bold and start Love?
I don’t mind what he is doing rewarding form with the likes of Kirifi and proctor , if they aren’t the answer, at least we are finding out
@kiwiinmelb said in All Blacks v France 2:
@canefan said in All Blacks v France 2:
Razor is basically selecting how he should have last season. Better late than never. Somehow he needs to rotate BB out to take a look at Love. Maybe DMac to start then Love comes on for 30 minutes? Or be really bold and start Love?
I don’t mind what he is doing rewarding form with the likes of Kirifi and proctor , if they aren’t the answer, at least we are finding out
Exactly, and I think Proctor got better as the match went on. He does however seem to struggle in the collision area, both on attack and defence. I'd still keep him at centre though for now. I think there's some upside there with him.
Kirifi, yeah, still not seeing how he fits into the equation. Again, not gonna complain if he gets the next test, but when you're only a specialist jackler and you're not winning turnovers, then you start to look at what else he brings. Happy to see him get a few tests to prove his worth, but as I stated earlier, I think his Canes teammate Peter Lakai is a better bet. He offers way more flexibility off the bench. Don't know when he's available again.
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What I think we need to work on is.closing the game, which means bench personnel.
Maybe a couple of bench players need to start, meaning the 'better' players come on so we can finish stronger.
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What's the go with Peter Lakai? I think that bench spot would be more suited to him when fit.
@African-Monkey said in All Blacks v France III:
What's the go with Peter Lakai? I think that bench spot would be more suited to him when fit.
Lakai got an injury during the Brumbies quarter-final. From Stuff:
Hooker Asafo Aumua (hamstring) and loose forward Peter Lakai (knee) missed out on the 33-man squad named on Monday due to injury, but were on track to be fit in time for the Rugby Championship.
[...]
Aumua hurt his hamstring during training ahead of the Super Rugby playoffs, while Lakai damaged the Medial Collateral Ligament (MCL) in his knee during the Hurricanes’ defeat to the Brumbies in Canberra a fortnight ago.So he should be back for The Rugby Championship. If he's fit and Sititi's still out, I reckon he gets a go at the number 8-jersey. I thought he went very well for the Hurricanes there in the second half of the season.
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@African-Monkey said in All Blacks v France III:
What's the go with Peter Lakai? I think that bench spot would be more suited to him when fit.
Lakai got an injury during the Brumbies quarter-final. From Stuff:
Hooker Asafo Aumua (hamstring) and loose forward Peter Lakai (knee) missed out on the 33-man squad named on Monday due to injury, but were on track to be fit in time for the Rugby Championship.
[...]
Aumua hurt his hamstring during training ahead of the Super Rugby playoffs, while Lakai damaged the Medial Collateral Ligament (MCL) in his knee during the Hurricanes’ defeat to the Brumbies in Canberra a fortnight ago.So he should be back for The Rugby Championship. If he's fit and Sititi's still out, I reckon he gets a go at the number 8-jersey. I thought he went very well for the Hurricanes there in the second half of the season.
@Mauss said in All Blacks v France III:
@African-Monkey said in All Blacks v France III:
What's the go with Peter Lakai? I think that bench spot would be more suited to him when fit.
Lakai got an injury during the Brumbies quarter-final. From Stuff:
Hooker Asafo Aumua (hamstring) and loose forward Peter Lakai (knee) missed out on the 33-man squad named on Monday due to injury, but were on track to be fit in time for the Rugby Championship.
[...]
Aumua hurt his hamstring during training ahead of the Super Rugby playoffs, while Lakai damaged the Medial Collateral Ligament (MCL) in his knee during the Hurricanes’ defeat to the Brumbies in Canberra a fortnight ago.So he should be back for The Rugby Championship. If he's fit and Sititi's still out, I reckon he gets a go at the number 8-jersey. I thought he went very well for the Hurricanes there in the second half of the season.
Yes he did, and he's just as good playing 7. I think he's the perfect bench option for us when we're at full strength.
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I’m not keen on seeing them making a lot of changes. I know Robertson has stated he intends to give everyone a run but that doesn’t necessarily mean making a lot of changes or giving everyone a lot of time on the field. I also don’t think that has to include players currently with the squad as injury cover.
If it were up to me, assuming injured players don’t make a come back and nobody else is out, I’d make very few changes. Perhaps start Ratima and McKenzie then swap them both at half time for Roigard and Love. Swap out the front row at or even before half time. Give Tavatavanawai or Tupaea and some of the other reserves who look like they’ll be in the main 23 thirty minutes.
I don’t see the need for giving third or fourth choice players big minutes. Use the bench to rest players who might need it.
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@brodean said in All Blacks v France 2:
McAlister, Ah Kuoi, Papali'i, Hotham, ALB and Love are the ones yet to play who are around the squad.
If those guys are the bench they will do no worse than the bench last night.
If Jacobson is fit he will probably start at 6 with Vaa'i injured or getting a chance to rest his shoulder.
If Vaa'i is fit then you would think he'd retain the 6 jersey with Jacobson playing at 8.
Imagine McAlister, Hotham and Love will all get spots on the bench. Don't think Ah Kuoi or Papali'i will feature unless there are injuries and assume ALB will start, if fit.
1 De Groot
2 Taukei'aho
3 Newell
4 Tuipulotu
5 Holland
6 Vaa'i / Jacobson / Finau
7 Savea
8 Jacobson / Lio-Willie
9 Roigard
10 McKenzie
11 Ioane
12 Tupaea
13 Lienert-Brown
14 Narawa
15 Jordan16 McAlister
17 Norris
18 Tosi
19 Finau / Ah Kuoi
20 Kirifi
21 Hotham
22 Love
23 Tavatavanawai@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks v France III:
If Vaa'i is fit then you would think he'd retain the 6 jersey with Jacobson playing at 8.
Yes. If Jacobson starts it should be at 7 or 8, not 6. I reckon we might see Savea back to no.8 if that happens.
A Tupaea-Proctor midfield would be interesting. I remember watching them play very well together for the Māori against MP.
Robertson changed his tune on giving everyone a game after the close 1st test, but has more leeway now.
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Would be good to see Finau play a full 80 to see if he can actually justify the hype and put some hits in.
@MN5 said in All Blacks v France III:
Would be good to see Finau play a full 80 to see if he can actually justify the hype and put some hits in.
My thinking is - if Vaai is our 6 option into The Rugby Championship this year - he needs time in the saddle - keep running Vaai out at 6 (assuming he's ok from the HIA).
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Tupou has been very very good but I wish we could have had a look at Parker, shame about the injury. I get what people are saying about Proctor and Ioane but something is still not right about our backline and maybe it is the coaching. Seems to lose focus and initiative.
Have noticed no one complains about Jordan at 15 these days. And boy has Jordie improved at 12, more elusive and dynamic. And I like QT and big Jim.
Kind of funny that Ioane looked like a centre now playing wing.
Still think Narawa is a good 14/15 style of player but I agree we are missing some speed - maybe at 11. -
@MN5 said in All Blacks v France III:
Would be good to see Finau play a full 80 to see if he can actually justify the hype and put some hits in.
My thinking is - if Vaai is our 6 option into The Rugby Championship this year - he needs time in the saddle - keep running Vaai out at 6 (assuming he's ok from the HIA).
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks v France III:
@MN5 said in All Blacks v France III:
Would be good to see Finau play a full 80 to see if he can actually justify the hype and put some hits in.
My thinking is - if Vaai is our 6 option into The Rugby Championship this year - he needs time in the saddle - keep running Vaai out at 6 (assuming he's ok from the HIA).
I agree but would be interesting to see if Finau can actually do what some on here say he can.
Jerome Kaino/Jerry Collins he most certainly ain't so far.
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Tupou has been very very good but I wish we could have had a look at Parker, shame about the injury. I get what people are saying about Proctor and Ioane but something is still not right about our backline and maybe it is the coaching. Seems to lose focus and initiative.
Have noticed no one complains about Jordan at 15 these days. And boy has Jordie improved at 12, more elusive and dynamic. And I like QT and big Jim.
Kind of funny that Ioane looked like a centre now playing wing.
Still think Narawa is a good 14/15 style of player but I agree we are missing some speed - maybe at 11.@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v France III:
Tupou has been very very good but I wish we could have had a look at Parker, shame about the injury. I get what people are saying about Proctor and Ioane but something is still not right about our backline and maybe it is the coaching. Seems to lose focus and initiative.
Have noticed no one complains about Jordan at 15 these days. And boy has Jordie improved at 12, more elusive and dynamic. And I like QT and big Jim.
Kind of funny that Ioane looked like a centre now playing wing.
Still think Narawa is a good 14/15 style of player but I agree we are missing some speed - maybe at 11.@Bones must be having internet problems or else he's been banned from here.
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I’m not keen on seeing them making a lot of changes. I know Robertson has stated he intends to give everyone a run but that doesn’t necessarily mean making a lot of changes or giving everyone a lot of time on the field. I also don’t think that has to include players currently with the squad as injury cover.
If it were up to me, assuming injured players don’t make a come back and nobody else is out, I’d make very few changes. Perhaps start Ratima and McKenzie then swap them both at half time for Roigard and Love. Swap out the front row at or even before half time. Give Tavatavanawai or Tupaea and some of the other reserves who look like they’ll be in the main 23 thirty minutes.
I don’t see the need for giving third or fourth choice players big minutes. Use the bench to rest players who might need it.
The backline and loose forwards have a number of question marks around them. It's not clear who the third and forth choice players are in a number of positions and even 1st and 2nd choice are not clear either.
A number of players are cruising off the back of a dominant tight five. We probably aren't going to get the same level of tight five dominance against first choice top 4 teams.
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@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks v France III:
If Vaa'i is fit then you would think he'd retain the 6 jersey with Jacobson playing at 8.
Yes. If Jacobson starts it should be at 7 or 8, not 6. I reckon we might see Savea back to no.8 if that happens.
A Tupaea-Proctor midfield would be interesting. I remember watching them play very well together for the Māori against MP.
Robertson changed his tune on giving everyone a game after the close 1st test, but has more leeway now.
@Bovidae said in All Blacks v France III:
@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks v France III:
If Vaa'i is fit then you would think he'd retain the 6 jersey with Jacobson playing at 8.
Yes. If Jacobson starts it should be at 7 or 8, not 6. I reckon we might see Savea back to no.8 if that happens.
A Tupaea-Proctor midfield would be interesting. I remember watching them play very well together for the Māori against MP.
Robertson changed his tune on giving everyone a game after the close 1st test, but has more leeway now.
I just think with tupaea we may have another potential starter 12 if Jordie was to go down , shorter but overall plays similar, let’s find out .
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The backline and loose forwards have a number of question marks around them. It's not clear who the third and forth choice players are in a number of positions and even 1st and 2nd choice are not clear either.
A number of players are cruising off the back of a dominant tight five. We probably aren't going to get the same level of tight five dominance against first choice top 4 teams.
@brodean said in All Blacks v France III:
The backline and loose forwards have a number of question marks around them. It's not clear who the third and forth choice players are in a number of positions and even 1st and 2nd choice are not clear either.
A number of players are cruising off the back of a dominant tight five. We probably aren't going to get the same level of tight five dominance against first choice top 4 teams.
Which to me makes guys like Kirifi and Lio Willie surplus to requirements against the really big guns.
That move the latter did to set up Roigard was cool though.
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@kiwiinmelb said in All Blacks v France 2:
@canefan said in All Blacks v France 2:
Razor is basically selecting how he should have last season. Better late than never. Somehow he needs to rotate BB out to take a look at Love. Maybe DMac to start then Love comes on for 30 minutes? Or be really bold and start Love?
I don’t mind what he is doing rewarding form with the likes of Kirifi and proctor , if they aren’t the answer, at least we are finding out
Exactly, and I think Proctor got better as the match went on. He does however seem to struggle in the collision area, both on attack and defence. I'd still keep him at centre though for now. I think there's some upside there with him.
Kirifi, yeah, still not seeing how he fits into the equation. Again, not gonna complain if he gets the next test, but when you're only a specialist jackler and you're not winning turnovers, then you start to look at what else he brings. Happy to see him get a few tests to prove his worth, but as I stated earlier, I think his Canes teammate Peter Lakai is a better bet. He offers way more flexibility off the bench. Don't know when he's available again.
@African-Monkey said in All Blacks v France III:
@kiwiinmelb said in All Blacks v France 2:
@canefan said in All Blacks v France 2:
Razor is basically selecting how he should have last season. Better late than never. Somehow he needs to rotate BB out to take a look at Love. Maybe DMac to start then Love comes on for 30 minutes? Or be really bold and start Love?
I don’t mind what he is doing rewarding form with the likes of Kirifi and proctor , if they aren’t the answer, at least we are finding out
Exactly, and I think Proctor got better as the match went on. He does however seem to struggle in the collision area, both on attack and defence. I'd still keep him at centre though for now. I think there's some upside there with him.
Kirifi, yeah, still not seeing how he fits into the equation. Again, not gonna complain if he gets the next test, but when you're only a specialist jackler and you're not winning turnovers, then you start to look at what else he brings. Happy to see him get a few tests to prove his worth, but as I stated earlier, I think his Canes teammate Peter Lakai is a better bet. He offers way more flexibility off the bench. Don't know when he's available again.
I tend to agree, I think Peter Lakai is definitely suited more to test footy, covers more positions as well. I think Kirifi would have missed out to Lakai if he was fit personally.
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@brodean said in All Blacks v France III:
The backline and loose forwards have a number of question marks around them. It's not clear who the third and forth choice players are in a number of positions and even 1st and 2nd choice are not clear either.
A number of players are cruising off the back of a dominant tight five. We probably aren't going to get the same level of tight five dominance against first choice top 4 teams.
Which to me makes guys like Kirifi and Lio Willie surplus to requirements against the really big guns.
That move the latter did to set up Roigard was cool though.
@MN5 said in All Blacks v France III:
@brodean said in All Blacks v France III:
The backline and loose forwards have a number of question marks around them. It's not clear who the third and forth choice players are in a number of positions and even 1st and 2nd choice are not clear either.
A number of players are cruising off the back of a dominant tight five. We probably aren't going to get the same level of tight five dominance against first choice top 4 teams.
Which to me makes guys like Kirifi and Lio Willie surplus to requirements against the really big guns.
That move the latter did to set up Roigard was cool though.
Yes Lio Willie has been better than Kirifi. The way injuries come around it seems that Lio Willie can be relied on to do a job but he doesn't really seem to have the attributes to grab the starting position with both hands and not let go for the next 4 years. So a bit of a stop gap measure at this stage?
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The backline and loose forwards have a number of question marks around them. It's not clear who the third and forth choice players are in a number of positions and even 1st and 2nd choice are not clear either.
A number of players are cruising off the back of a dominant tight five. We probably aren't going to get the same level of tight five dominance against first choice top 4 teams.
@brodean said in All Blacks v France III:
The backline and loose forwards have a number of question marks around them. It's not clear who the third and forth choice players are in a number of positions and even 1st and 2nd choice are not clear either.
A number of players are cruising off the back of a dominant tight five. We probably aren't going to get the same level of tight five dominance against first choice top 4 teams.
I don’t disagree but from within the squad they’ve chosen and with the players out injured, I don’t see much they can do to find the answers to those questions.
They know guys like Jordie Barrett, Will Jordan and Cam Roigard are going to be in the team. They know Ardie Savea is going to be in the team and Vaa’i should be persisted with at blindside with no uninjured potentially better options available.
The guys who haven’t played yet are Love, third-choice players and Lienert-Brown who they know all about and who has been slipping in form for a while now.
I just don’t see much benefit in making more than a handful of changes. Keep the core group together and hope they continue to improve.
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@voodoo said in All Blacks v France 2:
Seems odd that a visiting team would target the dead rubber Game 3 of a series as “the big one” that they want to win, but who the hell understands the French eh?
The logic seems to be that they'll target the third game because that's the game where the ABs were always expected to rotate their squad.
It's less odd when you start out from the premise that the French would be more than happy with a 2-1 series result. Then it makes (sort of) sense that they'd target the Test where the ABs are at their least experienced.
Not particularly in the spirit of the series but it's clear that both sides have very different approaches to these Tests.
@Mauss said in All Blacks v France III:
@voodoo said in All Blacks v France 2:
Seems odd that a visiting team would target the dead rubber Game 3 of a series as “the big one” that they want to win, but who the hell understands the French eh?
The logic seems to be that they'll target the third game because that's the game where the ABs were always expected to rotate their squad.
This makes a very big assumption by the French that not playing our incumbents would weaken our team.
The last few years have weakened my belief that this would be the case.
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@brodean said in All Blacks v France III:
The backline and loose forwards have a number of question marks around them. It's not clear who the third and forth choice players are in a number of positions and even 1st and 2nd choice are not clear either.
A number of players are cruising off the back of a dominant tight five. We probably aren't going to get the same level of tight five dominance against first choice top 4 teams.
I don’t disagree but from within the squad they’ve chosen and with the players out injured, I don’t see much they can do to find the answers to those questions.
They know guys like Jordie Barrett, Will Jordan and Cam Roigard are going to be in the team. They know Ardie Savea is going to be in the team and Vaa’i should be persisted with at blindside with no uninjured potentially better options available.
The guys who haven’t played yet are Love, third-choice players and Lienert-Brown who they know all about and who has been slipping in form for a while now.
I just don’t see much benefit in making more than a handful of changes. Keep the core group together and hope they continue to improve.
@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks v France III:
The guys who haven’t played yet are all clearly third-choice other than Lienert-Brown who they know all about and who has been slipping in form for a while now.
There's no evidence so far that Lio Willie and Kirifi are better than Jacobson and Papali'i.
Based on what we've seen from BB and Dmac, Love has to be given an opportunity. It's not clear that these guys offer more than what Love potentially could.
