All Blacks v France II
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@Windows97 said in All Blacks v France II:
@Mauss said in All Blacks v France II:
In the end, the gameplan bore very little fruit, Norris’ and Tosi’s combined 4 carries for a total of 7 metres made barely a fundamental upgrade on de Groot’s and Newell’s combined 4 carries for 3 metres made. Norris put in a big shift on defence but the argument can be made that this defensive shift wouldn’t be necessary if the quality of the breakdown, maul and lineout hadn’t plummeted with the bench forwards coming on. If the bench plan is to bring carrying impact then the coaches need to make sure that there are enough forwards on the field who focus on securing the breakdown. Because any plan that results in your backs having to consistently provide clean ball is a plan destined to fail.
I think this hits the nail on the head to explain the decline in the AB's attacking structure in the second half. Thank you for the insight.
This puts the AB's in a conumdrum going forward as per the weekend for example there's really no-one on the bench with a fantastic reputation of shifting bodies at the ruck. Norris, Tosi and Samisoni are ball carriers, Finau plays wide and Kirifi is more of a scavenger at the breakdown.
It begs the question when the bench comes on who's job is it to clear bodes at the ruck? It would appear no-one and everyone...
This is the problem with most people's idea of the 'impact player'. Stack your bench with ball runners, and you won't actually have the ball enough for them to do anything.
It's one of the reasons I'd look at starting Samisoni and using Taylor for the 2nd half. Also one running prop and one cleaning prop per half, same with the loosies...@reprobate said in All Blacks v France II:
This is the problem with most people's idea of the 'impact player'. Stack your bench with ball runners, and you won't actually have the ball enough for them to do anything.
It's one of the reasons I'd look at starting Samisoni and using Taylor for the 2nd half. Also one running prop and one cleaning prop per half, same with the loosies...I agree although if Tuipulotu starts with Holland then having the carrying prop or hooker becomes less important. I thought we had a good balance in the starting tight five on Saturday. It changed the dynamic.
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@sparky said in All Blacks v France II:
@Jet Clear YC. Refs are consistent on that one. Beauden Barrett should have known better.
Wasnt it forward in the buildup?
@Jet said in All Blacks v France II:
@sparky said in All Blacks v France II:
@Jet Clear YC. Refs are consistent on that one. Beauden Barrett should have known better.
Wasnt it forward in the buildup?
Not clear and obvious to me, and I did look.
Hate the interpretation (it was not a premeditated act, not therefore "cynical" IMO) but i can accept the ruling based on current standards.
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@Jet said in All Blacks v France II:
@sparky said in All Blacks v France II:
@Jet Clear YC. Refs are consistent on that one. Beauden Barrett should have known better.
Wasnt it forward in the buildup?
Maybe, but who cares? Forward passes and knock-ons get missed in just about every game. That's not some conspiracy, it's just a coincidence. What he did deserved a yellow card - because blocking passes discourages attacking rugby - and it is one of the more consistent card rulings out there.
@reprobate said in All Blacks v France II:
blocking passes discourages attacking rugby
My bugbear.
Blocking passes is not illegal. Especially if they're knocked back.
Knocking the ball down is not illegal.
It's illegal if it is knocked forward.
Tackling discourages attacking rugby. Don't think we're banning that.
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@reprobate Beauden Barrett must have got a YC for that, across his career for the Hurricanes, the Blues and the All Blacks, at least half a dozen times. I really wish he'd stop doing it.
@sparky said in All Blacks v France II:
@reprobate Beauden Barrett must have got a YC for that, across his career for the Hurricanes, the Blues and the All Blacks, at least half a dozen times. I really wish he'd stop doing it.
Saved a try. Worth the yellow.
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@sparky said in All Blacks v France II:
@reprobate Beauden Barrett must have got a YC for that, across his career for the Hurricanes, the Blues and the All Blacks, at least half a dozen times. I really wish he'd stop doing it.
Saved a try. Worth the yellow.
@booboo said in All Blacks v France II:
@sparky said in All Blacks v France II:
@reprobate Beauden Barrett must have got a YC for that, across his career for the Hurricanes, the Blues and the All Blacks, at least half a dozen times. I really wish he'd stop doing it.
Saved a try. Worth the yellow.
Is having your 10 in the bin worth saving 5 to 7 points given the 14 man team is more likely to concede points and far less likely to gain any? And is more tired than before (although perhaps this is minor if a back is carded?)
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@booboo said in All Blacks v France II:
@sparky said in All Blacks v France II:
@reprobate Beauden Barrett must have got a YC for that, across his career for the Hurricanes, the Blues and the All Blacks, at least half a dozen times. I really wish he'd stop doing it.
Saved a try. Worth the yellow.
Is having your 10 in the bin worth saving 5 to 7 points given the 14 man team is more likely to concede points and far less likely to gain any? And is more tired than before (although perhaps this is minor if a back is carded?)
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v France II:
@booboo said in All Blacks v France II:
@sparky said in All Blacks v France II:
@reprobate Beauden Barrett must have got a YC for that, across his career for the Hurricanes, the Blues and the All Blacks, at least half a dozen times. I really wish he'd stop doing it.
Saved a try. Worth the yellow.
Is having your 10 in the bin worth saving 5 to 7 points given the 14 man team is more likely to concede points and far less likely to gain any? And is more tired than before (although perhaps this is minor if a back is carded?)
Little damage done: didn't we come out of that period on top?
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@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v France II:
@booboo said in All Blacks v France II:
@sparky said in All Blacks v France II:
@reprobate Beauden Barrett must have got a YC for that, across his career for the Hurricanes, the Blues and the All Blacks, at least half a dozen times. I really wish he'd stop doing it.
Saved a try. Worth the yellow.
Is having your 10 in the bin worth saving 5 to 7 points given the 14 man team is more likely to concede points and far less likely to gain any? And is more tired than before (although perhaps this is minor if a back is carded?)
Little damage done: didn't we come out of that period on top?
@booboo said in All Blacks v France II:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v France II:
@booboo said in All Blacks v France II:
@sparky said in All Blacks v France II:
@reprobate Beauden Barrett must have got a YC for that, across his career for the Hurricanes, the Blues and the All Blacks, at least half a dozen times. I really wish he'd stop doing it.
Saved a try. Worth the yellow.
Is having your 10 in the bin worth saving 5 to 7 points given the 14 man team is more likely to concede points and far less likely to gain any? And is more tired than before (although perhaps this is minor if a back is carded?)
Little damage done: didn't we come out of that period on top?
Yes we played better when he left the field but my question is more regards general strategy than BB per se.
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@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v France II:
@booboo said in All Blacks v France II:
@sparky said in All Blacks v France II:
@reprobate Beauden Barrett must have got a YC for that, across his career for the Hurricanes, the Blues and the All Blacks, at least half a dozen times. I really wish he'd stop doing it.
Saved a try. Worth the yellow.
Is having your 10 in the bin worth saving 5 to 7 points given the 14 man team is more likely to concede points and far less likely to gain any? And is more tired than before (although perhaps this is minor if a back is carded?)
Little damage done: didn't we come out of that period on top?
@booboo we scored twice IIRC...that said, in the past 5 or 6 years, the ABs have had far too much practice at playing a man down, especially a Barrett, they likely have the Barrett protocol in place for when one of them leaves the field
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@booboo said in All Blacks v France II:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v France II:
@booboo said in All Blacks v France II:
@sparky said in All Blacks v France II:
@reprobate Beauden Barrett must have got a YC for that, across his career for the Hurricanes, the Blues and the All Blacks, at least half a dozen times. I really wish he'd stop doing it.
Saved a try. Worth the yellow.
Is having your 10 in the bin worth saving 5 to 7 points given the 14 man team is more likely to concede points and far less likely to gain any? And is more tired than before (although perhaps this is minor if a back is carded?)
Little damage done: didn't we come out of that period on top?
Yes we played better when he left the field but my question is more regards general strategy than BB per se.
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v France II:
@booboo said in All Blacks v France II:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v France II:
@booboo said in All Blacks v France II:
@sparky said in All Blacks v France II:
@reprobate Beauden Barrett must have got a YC for that, across his career for the Hurricanes, the Blues and the All Blacks, at least half a dozen times. I really wish he'd stop doing it.
Saved a try. Worth the yellow.
Is having your 10 in the bin worth saving 5 to 7 points given the 14 man team is more likely to concede points and far less likely to gain any? And is more tired than before (although perhaps this is minor if a back is carded?)
Little damage done: didn't we come out of that period on top?
Yes we played better when he left the field but my question is more regards general strategy than BB per se.
Sometimes it's worth it to concede a YC.
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@Mauss said in All Blacks v France II:
In the end, the gameplan bore very little fruit, Norris’ and Tosi’s combined 4 carries for a total of 7 metres made barely a fundamental upgrade on de Groot’s and Newell’s combined 4 carries for 3 metres made. Norris put in a big shift on defence but the argument can be made that this defensive shift wouldn’t be necessary if the quality of the breakdown, maul and lineout hadn’t plummeted with the bench forwards coming on. If the bench plan is to bring carrying impact then the coaches need to make sure that there are enough forwards on the field who focus on securing the breakdown. Because any plan that results in your backs having to consistently provide clean ball is a plan destined to fail.
I think this hits the nail on the head to explain the decline in the AB's attacking structure in the second half. Thank you for the insight.
This puts the AB's in a conumdrum going forward as per the weekend for example there's really no-one on the bench with a fantastic reputation of shifting bodies at the ruck. Norris, Tosi and Samisoni are ball carriers, Finau plays wide and Kirifi is more of a scavenger at the breakdown.
It begs the question when the bench comes on who's job is it to clear bodes at the ruck? It would appear no-one and everyone...
@Windows97 said in All Blacks v France II:
@Mauss said in All Blacks v France II:
In the end, the gameplan bore very little fruit, Norris’ and Tosi’s combined 4 carries for a total of 7 metres made barely a fundamental upgrade on de Groot’s and Newell’s combined 4 carries for 3 metres made. Norris put in a big shift on defence but the argument can be made that this defensive shift wouldn’t be necessary if the quality of the breakdown, maul and lineout hadn’t plummeted with the bench forwards coming on. If the bench plan is to bring carrying impact then the coaches need to make sure that there are enough forwards on the field who focus on securing the breakdown. Because any plan that results in your backs having to consistently provide clean ball is a plan destined to fail.
I think this hits the nail on the head to explain the decline in the AB's attacking structure in the second half. Thank you for the insight.
This puts the AB's in a conumdrum going forward as per the weekend for example there's really no-one on the bench with a fantastic reputation of shifting bodies at the ruck. Norris, Tosi and Samisoni are ball carriers, Finau plays wide and Kirifi is more of a scavenger at the breakdown.
It begs the question when the bench comes on who's job is it to clear bodes at the ruck? It would appear no-one and everyone...
The main impact on the second half play was Tuipulotu and Vaa'i being injured for the last quarter. That meant Finau had to move to lock and we had the three small loose forwards on the field. I doubt that was part of the plan but injuries happen.
For the movement in question where Beauden hits a ruck Tosi, Taukei'aho, Finau, and Kirifi all hit rucks in that movement. Savea and Norris do not.
All of the forwards apart from Vaa'i are lined up on one side of the ruck when Beauden switches play away from the forwards so the main reason why Beauden needs to attend that ruck is he switches play to a side of the field which has no forward support once Vaa'i is the carrier.
At some point of the game all 10's will need to hit a ruck - especially if its due to a play of their own making. This particular incident isn't evidence that Tosi and Norris don't hit enough rucks.
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vaai only had 3 carrys all game. we really need more than that . rugbypass stats anyone else have any?are these wrong for someone who majority had him as a top performer thats really low
@ploughboy said in All Blacks v France II:
vaai only had 3 carrys all game. we really need more than that . rugbypass stats anyone else have any?are these wrong for someone who majority had him as a top performer thats really low
They were high impact carries.
1 was a linebreak and a try.
Rieko scored his try after the ruck from another of his carries.
Someone needs to hit some rucks when Savea and Lio Willie carry a lot.
He's a big body in a dominant lineout and maul that led to a few tries.
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If it’s
Williams, Taylor, Lomax - starting
EDG, ST, Newell - benchThen I think those trios have pretty good balance.
I’m still thinking 6/2 bench is something to be explored.
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If it’s
Williams, Taylor, Lomax - starting
EDG, ST, Newell - benchThen I think those trios have pretty good balance.
I’m still thinking 6/2 bench is something to be explored.
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@ACT-Crusader think I'd swap Newell/Lomax, just get a little bit more oomph on attack off the bench, with a bit more power in the tackle.
@Bones said in All Blacks v France II:
@ACT-Crusader think I'd swap Newell/Lomax, just get a little bit more oomph on attack off the bench, with a bit more power in the tackle.
Yeah I was going to add, perhaps starting the Saders front row would be good from a combo also. But that might’ve been too predictable
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@Bones said in All Blacks v France II:
@ACT-Crusader think I'd swap Newell/Lomax, just get a little bit more oomph on attack off the bench, with a bit more power in the tackle.
Yeah I was going to add, perhaps starting the Saders front row would be good from a combo also. But that might’ve been too predictable
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks v France II:
@Bones said in All Blacks v France II:
@ACT-Crusader think I'd swap Newell/Lomax, just get a little bit more oomph on attack off the bench, with a bit more power in the tackle.
Yeah I was going to add, perhaps starting the Saders front row would be good from a combo also. But that might’ve been too predictable
Newell has shown some sweet hands as well, which could be useful unlocking space early on.
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@Windows97 said in All Blacks v France II:
@Mauss said in All Blacks v France II:
In the end, the gameplan bore very little fruit, Norris’ and Tosi’s combined 4 carries for a total of 7 metres made barely a fundamental upgrade on de Groot’s and Newell’s combined 4 carries for 3 metres made. Norris put in a big shift on defence but the argument can be made that this defensive shift wouldn’t be necessary if the quality of the breakdown, maul and lineout hadn’t plummeted with the bench forwards coming on. If the bench plan is to bring carrying impact then the coaches need to make sure that there are enough forwards on the field who focus on securing the breakdown. Because any plan that results in your backs having to consistently provide clean ball is a plan destined to fail.
I think this hits the nail on the head to explain the decline in the AB's attacking structure in the second half. Thank you for the insight.
This puts the AB's in a conumdrum going forward as per the weekend for example there's really no-one on the bench with a fantastic reputation of shifting bodies at the ruck. Norris, Tosi and Samisoni are ball carriers, Finau plays wide and Kirifi is more of a scavenger at the breakdown.
It begs the question when the bench comes on who's job is it to clear bodes at the ruck? It would appear no-one and everyone...
The main impact on the second half play was Tuipulotu and Vaa'i being injured for the last quarter. That meant Finau had to move to lock and we had the three small loose forwards on the field. I doubt that was part of the plan but injuries happen.
For the movement in question where Beauden hits a ruck Tosi, Taukei'aho, Finau, and Kirifi all hit rucks in that movement. Savea and Norris do not.
All of the forwards apart from Vaa'i are lined up on one side of the ruck when Beauden switches play away from the forwards so the main reason why Beauden needs to attend that ruck is he switches play to a side of the field which has no forward support once Vaa'i is the carrier.
At some point of the game all 10's will need to hit a ruck - especially if its due to a play of their own making. This particular incident isn't evidence that Tosi and Norris don't hit enough rucks.
@brodean said in All Blacks v France II:
For the movement in question where Beauden hits a ruck Tosi, Taukei'aho, Finau, and Kirifi all hit rucks in that movement. Savea and Norris do not.
All of the forwards apart from Vaa'i are lined up on one side of the ruck when Beauden switches play away from the forwards so the main reason why Beauden needs to attend that ruck is he switches play to a side of the field which has no forward support once Vaa'i is the carrier.
At some point of the game all 10's will need to hit a ruck - especially if its due to a play of their own making. This particular incident isn't evidence that Tosi and Norris don't hit enough rucks.
You’re right in that the Barrett and Jordan clean isn’t evidence, it’s more meant as an example. The evidence is that Newell and de Groot cleaned the attacking ruck at rates of 40 cleans/80min and 29 cleans/80min, while their replacements did so at a rate of 14.5 and 17 cleans per 80min respectively.
The example I just found interesting, because of how Norris had become removed so far from the play all of a sudden. I think if you compare the build-up between the Jordan-try in Dunedin and the Ioane-try in Wellington, and only focus on the positioning and actions of the props, I think the different patterns are quite noticeable.
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@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v France II:
@booboo said in All Blacks v France II:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v France II:
@booboo said in All Blacks v France II:
@sparky said in All Blacks v France II:
@reprobate Beauden Barrett must have got a YC for that, across his career for the Hurricanes, the Blues and the All Blacks, at least half a dozen times. I really wish he'd stop doing it.
Saved a try. Worth the yellow.
Is having your 10 in the bin worth saving 5 to 7 points given the 14 man team is more likely to concede points and far less likely to gain any? And is more tired than before (although perhaps this is minor if a back is carded?)
Little damage done: didn't we come out of that period on top?
Yes we played better when he left the field but my question is more regards general strategy than BB per se.
Sometimes it's worth it to concede a YC.
@booboo said in All Blacks v France II:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v France II:
@booboo said in All Blacks v France II:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v France II:
@booboo said in All Blacks v France II:
@sparky said in All Blacks v France II:
@reprobate Beauden Barrett must have got a YC for that, across his career for the Hurricanes, the Blues and the All Blacks, at least half a dozen times. I really wish he'd stop doing it.
Saved a try. Worth the yellow.
Is having your 10 in the bin worth saving 5 to 7 points given the 14 man team is more likely to concede points and far less likely to gain any? And is more tired than before (although perhaps this is minor if a back is carded?)
Little damage done: didn't we come out of that period on top?
Yes we played better when he left the field but my question is more regards general strategy than BB per se.
Sometimes it's worth it to concede a YC.
Never
