All Blacks v Argentina I
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NZ used to lead the world in this
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@MiketheSnow and our innovation and thinking got stale late in Hansens era and carried on through Fozzie, now Razor seems to be either woefully out of his depth or he is suffering a deer in headlights situation with international rugby.
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@sparky said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
@jimmyb Hoskins Sotutu, Akira Ioane, Dalton Papalii, Ruben Love, Timoci Tavatavanawai. All very high ceiling players.
I'd love to see Kyle Preston and Leroy Carter given game time too.
Don’t be silly with Sotutu and Ioane. Dalton has and will get chances but has also reasonably fallen down the pecking order.
Love and Tavatavanawai are and will be getting game time. Robertson has brought them into the squad and is giving them exposure at a sensible rate. Preston and Carter have been included in the squad but don’t demand replacing second string players in their position. The Super Rugby final is a noticeable black mark against Carter and being in the squad is a plus for him. Not sure any journey men are being prioritised over Love, Tavatavanawai, Preston, or Carter. Perhaps ALB but TT still has a lot to learn at centre, his defensive positioning and passing was caught out a few times in super rugby. Seems to me Robertson is exposing all the above players in a sensible manner.
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@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
@cgrant said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
This team is so underwhelming, at least on paper as the game has not been played yet. The return of Williams and Sititi should add more muscle up front when they are available but I don't see too many adjustments in the backline which would make it less meh as Love did not get enough minutes to show what he is capable of, while Carter is totally untried at this level. Roigard will be welcome when he is back as Ratima and Christie would not even be considered for selection if they were Australian or South African players.
This is my issue with Robertson’s thinking. Player X, may have a huge amount of potential but hasn’t played any/enough test rugby and therefore we need to select the experienced player who is getting worse and worse all the time.
It means the emerging talent only ever gets an opportunity when Robertson’s hand is forced by injury and they’ll get to the Wordl Cup with those players still too inexperienced to be selected in his view and the experienced players having declined in ability even further.
It’s time to find replacements for Reece, Barrett (yes, I know it’s Mo’unga), Lienert-Brown etc. Worst case scenario is the new players will only have enough time to get to the level the players they’re replacing would be at in 2027 anyway.
Who in Super Rugby is demanding themselves to be out ahead of Reece, Barrett, ALB? The wingers in super rugby were v average and Reece was consistently out playing his opposition? Which 10 is putting their hand above Barrett’s? Love? His coach didn’t even trust him over Brett Cameron? Has he showed enough composure in his chances at 10 to ditch Barrett and McKenzie? Did ALB not repeatedly outplay his opponents when on the field this year?
Fringe players in this year have simply not been good enough to push the incumbents out. That’s a problem with the standard of rugby, not Robertson’s selections. There isn’t really anyone who has showed potential that isn’t in the squad. I’m not sure were the criticism is justified
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
Barrett and Kirifi very lucky in the pack.
Barrett lucky in the backs. Reece too.
Barrett in forwards was always first pick, as captain, and even Kirifi on his last game (and no Jacobson , Sititi was pretty well sure thing I reckon. Same as backs BB is first choice 10, Reece I can take or leave . But I guess it how you look at luck etc. I go along kind of with @jimmyb , Love has had a couple of runs at 10 for Canes, didn't really look a lot better than Godfrey who he placed, although he was good. I also struggle to see wings that are screaming pick me just yet. Though may have some coming through.
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Barrett was always coming back, but you hope Razor has had some honest conversations about his form and that of those in his absence.
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Du'Plessis is busy and I have no issue with him starting.. as others have said its more when you play both him and Ardie....
What was very evident in the video and of more concern to me is the steps.. usually lateral that Ratima takes and closes space, prior to passing.....for me I am more concerned with the 9s this weekend than I am about the small ( but very mobile) 7 and 8 combo....
given we appear to be playing two 7s we need Ratima to be super quick in getting that ball out
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@jimmyb said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
@cgrant said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
This team is so underwhelming, at least on paper as the game has not been played yet. The return of Williams and Sititi should add more muscle up front when they are available but I don't see too many adjustments in the backline which would make it less meh as Love did not get enough minutes to show what he is capable of, while Carter is totally untried at this level. Roigard will be welcome when he is back as Ratima and Christie would not even be considered for selection if they were Australian or South African players.
This is my issue with Robertson’s thinking. Player X, may have a huge amount of potential but hasn’t played any/enough test rugby and therefore we need to select the experienced player who is getting worse and worse all the time.
It means the emerging talent only ever gets an opportunity when Robertson’s hand is forced by injury and they’ll get to the Wordl Cup with those players still too inexperienced to be selected in his view and the experienced players having declined in ability even further.
It’s time to find replacements for Reece, Barrett (yes, I know it’s Mo’unga), Lienert-Brown etc. Worst case scenario is the new players will only have enough time to get to the level the players they’re replacing would be at in 2027 anyway.
Who in Super Rugby is demanding themselves to be out ahead of Reece, Barrett, ALB? The wingers in super rugby were v average and Reece was consistently out playing his opposition? Which 10 is putting their hand above Barrett’s? Love? His coach didn’t even trust him over Brett Cameron? Has he showed enough composure in his chances at 10 to ditch Barrett and McKenzie? Did ALB not repeatedly outplay his opponents when on the field this year?
Fringe players in this year have simply not been good enough to push the incumbents out. That’s a problem with the standard of rugby, not Robertson’s selections. There isn’t really anyone who has showed potential that isn’t in the squad. I’m not sure were the criticism is justified
What ridiculously high level of form in Super Rugby are you really looking for? Potential should be enough to get a number of players a look in when so many of the current crop are so average and have clearly been on the decline for years. To be fair, Robertson has selected some players on potential at least when forced to with injuries to others.
It’s not really the players who aren’t in the squad that are the issue anyway. There are players in the squad right now who, given a reasonable amount of game time, would almost certainly be better then the fading experienced players come 2027. But Robertson seems to think experience trumps everything else. And that will see the players you've mentioned still in the 2023 at the World Cup, with another two years of their ability sliding away.
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@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
@jimmyb said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
@cgrant said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
This team is so underwhelming, at least on paper as the game has not been played yet. The return of Williams and Sititi should add more muscle up front when they are available but I don't see too many adjustments in the backline which would make it less meh as Love did not get enough minutes to show what he is capable of, while Carter is totally untried at this level. Roigard will be welcome when he is back as Ratima and Christie would not even be considered for selection if they were Australian or South African players.
This is my issue with Robertson’s thinking. Player X, may have a huge amount of potential but hasn’t played any/enough test rugby and therefore we need to select the experienced player who is getting worse and worse all the time.
It means the emerging talent only ever gets an opportunity when Robertson’s hand is forced by injury and they’ll get to the Wordl Cup with those players still too inexperienced to be selected in his view and the experienced players having declined in ability even further.
It’s time to find replacements for Reece, Barrett (yes, I know it’s Mo’unga), Lienert-Brown etc. Worst case scenario is the new players will only have enough time to get to the level the players they’re replacing would be at in 2027 anyway.
Who in Super Rugby is demanding themselves to be out ahead of Reece, Barrett, ALB? The wingers in super rugby were v average and Reece was consistently out playing his opposition? Which 10 is putting their hand above Barrett’s? Love? His coach didn’t even trust him over Brett Cameron? Has he showed enough composure in his chances at 10 to ditch Barrett and McKenzie? Did ALB not repeatedly outplay his opponents when on the field this year?
Fringe players in this year have simply not been good enough to push the incumbents out. That’s a problem with the standard of rugby, not Robertson’s selections. There isn’t really anyone who has showed potential that isn’t in the squad. I’m not sure were the criticism is justified
What ridiculously high level of form in Super Rugby are you really looking for? Potential should be enough to get a number of players a look in when so many of the current crop are so average and have clearly been on the decline for years. To be fair, Robertson has selected some players on potential at least when forced to with injuries to others.
It’s not really the players who aren’t in the squad that are the issue anyway. There are players in the squad right now who, given a reasonable amount of game time, would almost certainly be better then the fading experienced players come 2027. But Robertson seems to think experience trumps everything else. And that will see the players you've mentioned still in the 2023 at the World Cup, with another two years of their ability sliding away.
@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
@jimmyb said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
@cgrant said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
This team is so underwhelming, at least on paper as the game has not been played yet. The return of Williams and Sititi should add more muscle up front when they are available but I don't see too many adjustments in the backline which would make it less meh as Love did not get enough minutes to show what he is capable of, while Carter is totally untried at this level. Roigard will be welcome when he is back as Ratima and Christie would not even be considered for selection if they were Australian or South African players.
This is my issue with Robertson’s thinking. Player X, may have a huge amount of potential but hasn’t played any/enough test rugby and therefore we need to select the experienced player who is getting worse and worse all the time.
It means the emerging talent only ever gets an opportunity when Robertson’s hand is forced by injury and they’ll get to the Wordl Cup with those players still too inexperienced to be selected in his view and the experienced players having declined in ability even further.
It’s time to find replacements for Reece, Barrett (yes, I know it’s Mo’unga), Lienert-Brown etc. Worst case scenario is the new players will only have enough time to get to the level the players they’re replacing would be at in 2027 anyway.
Who in Super Rugby is demanding themselves to be out ahead of Reece, Barrett, ALB? The wingers in super rugby were v average and Reece was consistently out playing his opposition? Which 10 is putting their hand above Barrett’s? Love? His coach didn’t even trust him over Brett Cameron? Has he showed enough composure in his chances at 10 to ditch Barrett and McKenzie? Did ALB not repeatedly outplay his opponents when on the field this year?
Fringe players in this year have simply not been good enough to push the incumbents out. That’s a problem with the standard of rugby, not Robertson’s selections. There isn’t really anyone who has showed potential that isn’t in the squad. I’m not sure were the criticism is justified
What ridiculously high level of form in Super Rugby are you really looking for? Potential should be enough to get a number of players a look in when so many of the current crop are so average and have clearly been on the decline for years. To be fair, Robertson has selected some players on potential at least when forced to with injuries to others.
It’s not really the players who aren’t in the squad that are the issue anyway. There are players in the squad right now who, given a reasonable amount of game time, would almost certainly be better then the fading experienced players come 2027. But Robertson seems to think experience trumps everything else. And that will see the players you've mentioned still in the 2023 at the World Cup, with another two years of their ability sliding away.
I’m sorry but that’s a load of absolute bollocks. Who hasn’t been picked that shows potential and who in the squad is fading with perhaps the exception of ALB?
The front row only has Taylor, the rest are the best up and coming young props. The second row has Holland, Darry and Lord when not injured. Who else could be picked there? Ditto with a backrow that has Lakai, Parker, Kirifi, Finau, Sititi. The only old experienced player there is Savea.
Halfback has two new young players in Hotham and Ratima, both of whom have plenty of game time. 10 is the only problem area but no one is putting their hand up behind the two incumbent players.
In the mid field, Robertson has ditched Ioane, brought in Proctor, and has TT and Tupea in reserve. None of that was injured forced.
Wing is a problem area but who else should he pick? Robertson, while maybe 3-4 tests late, is actually creating a very balanced squad in terms of youth and experience. Your criticism is just parroting nonsense that has no real basis to it
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Are you even reading what I’m saying? You’re listing players I never said weren’t up to it, bringing up Super Rugby form and players outside the squad I never mentioned. The point I’m making isn’t there aren’t players in the squad who should be, although there are one or two. It’s that the players in the 23 are in there based on experience instead of form or potential meaning the emerging talent aren’t ever getting the experience needed to reach their potential. The question is: what gives the All Blacks the best chance of winning a World Cup quarterfinal, Lienert-Brown off the bench with 100 test caps, or Tavatavanawai with twenty test caps with significant minutes? Same for alternatives to Reece and Barrett. The only time emerging talent get a go is when injury strikes, then the coaches find out that, wow, they’re actually pretty bloody good, we’ll keep them on.
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@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
@jimmyb said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
There isn’t really anyone who has showed potential that isn’t in the squad.
AJ Lam says hi.
FWIW I thought Lam was better last year than this season.
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@taniwharugby what was wrong with Barrets form, he had 40 min of test rugby after finishing the super season in good form
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@Chuck72 said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
@taniwharugby what was wrong with Barrets form, he had 40 min of test rugby after finishing the super season in good form
He was not our best lock last year, Vaai was, which was unexpected. He was slow starting in Super, getting to good but not great heights by the end of it. Holland was more impressive in Super and impressive in his first tests.
If you were to pick solely on form and not shoehorn Vaai to 6, he might well not start. -
Singer looks like the Go Compare bloke's brother
