All Blacks v Argentina II
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Between them, I would say Vaa'i, Parker, Savea and Ratima are strong enough collectively at the breakdown (Tupaea or Tavatavanawai in the backline if they're playing too). But also wouldn't mind Papali'i in there at 7, just can't picture a world where Savea is dropped from the starting line-up, let alone the 23.
@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Between them, I would say Vaa'i, Parker, Savea and Ratima are strong enough collectively at the breakdown (Tupaea or Tavatavanawai in the backline if they're playing too). But also wouldn't mind Papali'i in there at 7, just can't picture a world where Savea is dropped from the starting line-up, let alone the 23.
I dont think the Allblacks will ever fully heal until Ardie and Beaudy are gone.
They historically demanded inclusion but picking them causes a myriad of selection headaches elsewhere.
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@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Between them, I would say Vaa'i, Parker, Savea and Ratima are strong enough collectively at the breakdown (Tupaea or Tavatavanawai in the backline if they're playing too). But also wouldn't mind Papali'i in there at 7, just can't picture a world where Savea is dropped from the starting line-up, let alone the 23.
I dont think the Allblacks will ever fully heal until Ardie and Beaudy are gone.
They historically demanded inclusion but picking them causes a myriad of selection headaches elsewhere.
@Jet said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Between them, I would say Vaa'i, Parker, Savea and Ratima are strong enough collectively at the breakdown (Tupaea or Tavatavanawai in the backline if they're playing too). But also wouldn't mind Papali'i in there at 7, just can't picture a world where Savea is dropped from the starting line-up, let alone the 23.
I dont think the Allblacks will ever fully heal until Ardie and Beaudy are gone.
They historically demanded inclusion but picking them causes a myriad of selection headaches elsewhere.
I agree. They need a complete refresh in terms of selection and, with Robertson placing value of experience above all else, that's not going to happen until after the World Cup.
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Vaaii deservedly gets some shit for his terrible attempt on Matera, but it's obvious that he'll need to work on his defense around the scrums and in structured play - he's always been a bit of a hybrid player but he's hardly played at 6 - he's developed as very good lock and knows that role, so he'll look like a lock playing 6 at times.
If we accept he's the best for the role, we'll have to eat these mistakes as he develops his knowledge, and hopefully we'll see him play at 6 for the Chiefs (either starting or finishing games if Finau is subbed).
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More from Dagg
https://www.rugbypass.com/news/israel-dagg-criticises-all-black-wingers-performance/
“You look at our chases at the moment, and Rieko, this isn’t a plot on him as a person, but he just can’t get up and chase and put pressure on the ball, like you look at him and he’s getting up and he’s kind of just half hearted into the into the jump,” Dagg said on Sport Nation’s Breakfast with Scotty & Izzy. “He’s not winning it, he’s not brave, he’s not courageous, and he’s not getting up and trying to put a knee in the bloke, like, that’s what you’ve got to do.” “It’s a 50-50 play, and right now it’s a 70-30 play, because opposition would have seen that and it’s gonna continue to come throughout the rest of the year and if we do not fix that, it’s gonna be a difficult season.” Dagg gives credit to Argentina whose kicks were accurate, and not too far that their chasers couldn’t get up and contest. “Argentina, they kicked really well, they weren’t kicking it too long, and I think that’s the problem at the moment. from our own kicks, we are kicking it too long and there’s not enough height on it. “So you’re not giving our chasers a genuine option to get up and disrupt, I’ve got to be completely honest, there’s only one bloke there at the back at the moment they can catch high ball, and you’re relying heavily on a Will Jordan to get up and and do what’s asked of him.”@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
More from Dagg
https://www.rugbypass.com/news/israel-dagg-criticises-all-black-wingers-performance/
“You look at our chases at the moment, and Rieko, this isn’t a plot on him as a person, but he just can’t get up and chase and put pressure on the ball, like you look at him and he’s getting up and he’s kind of just half hearted into the into the jump,” Dagg said on Sport Nation’s Breakfast with Scotty & Izzy. “He’s not winning it, he’s not brave, he’s not courageous, and he’s not getting up and trying to put a knee in the bloke, like, that’s what you’ve got to do.” “It’s a 50-50 play, and right now it’s a 70-30 play, because opposition would have seen that and it’s gonna continue to come throughout the rest of the year and if we do not fix that, it’s gonna be a difficult season.” Dagg gives credit to Argentina whose kicks were accurate, and not too far that their chasers couldn’t get up and contest. “Argentina, they kicked really well, they weren’t kicking it too long, and I think that’s the problem at the moment. from our own kicks, we are kicking it too long and there’s not enough height on it. “So you’re not giving our chasers a genuine option to get up and disrupt, I’ve got to be completely honest, there’s only one bloke there at the back at the moment they can catch high ball, and you’re relying heavily on a Will Jordan to get up and and do what’s asked of him.”That just sounds like he has an axe to grind with Rieko. Jordan was poor as well and has never been great under the high ball, and Reece is even worse than Rieko but also throws in moronic brain explosions that cost us games, like going for a dumb ass one handed intercept just when we had the upper hand. Not even worth a mention? It was all just Rieko being lazy? Fuck off Dagg.
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An ex player says something negative about a player and he gets the old fashioned 'fuck off'. Do we want honesty or not?
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@Crazy-Horse the provincial bias in that analysis is next level lol, so yeah, fuck off Dagg
Edit - to build on that, we had one winger that didn't do much overall, play didn't really go his way, maybe you could say he could chase a bit harder on some kicks. Then we had the other winger that played so fucking badly that he cost us the match by undoing ALL of the hard work of our pack by getting himself sent from the field and handing Argentina 9 point advantage.
It's going to be a LONG fucking season if our wingers keep getting themselves carded for the dumbest plays imaginable at the worst time possible.
Which winger has Dagg singled out there?
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@Crazy-Horse the provincial bias in that analysis is next level lol, so yeah, fuck off Dagg
Edit - to build on that, we had one winger that didn't do much overall, play didn't really go his way, maybe you could say he could chase a bit harder on some kicks. Then we had the other winger that played so fucking badly that he cost us the match by undoing ALL of the hard work of our pack by getting himself sent from the field and handing Argentina 9 point advantage.
It's going to be a LONG fucking season if our wingers keep getting themselves carded for the dumbest plays imaginable at the worst time possible.
Which winger has Dagg singled out there?
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Crazy-Horse the provincial bias in that analysis is next level lol, so yeah, fuck off Dagg
If Jeff Wilson criticised Jordon and no one else at the time, would that be provincial bias?
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@Crazy-Horse the provincial bias in that analysis is next level lol, so yeah, fuck off Dagg
Edit - to build on that, we had one winger that didn't do much overall, play didn't really go his way, maybe you could say he could chase a bit harder on some kicks. Then we had the other winger that played so fucking badly that he cost us the match by undoing ALL of the hard work of our pack by getting himself sent from the field and handing Argentina 9 point advantage.
It's going to be a LONG fucking season if our wingers keep getting themselves carded for the dumbest plays imaginable at the worst time possible.
Which winger has Dagg singled out there?
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Crazy-Horse the provincial bias in that analysis is next level lol, so yeah, fuck off Dagg
Edit - to build on that, we had one winger that didn't do much overall, play didn't really go his way, maybe you could say he could chase a bit harder on some kicks. Then we had the other winger that played so fucking badly that he cost us the match by undoing ALL of the hard work of our pack by getting himself sent from the field and handing Argentina 9 point advantage.
It's going to be a LONG fucking season if our wingers keep getting themselves carded for the dumbest plays imaginable at the worst time possible.
Which winger has Dagg singled out there?
Yeah I like the criticism, but that was blatant.
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I only care if the criticism is valid.
Or do we now expect that the only time we appear to get honesty, they need to preside over the remaining match day 22 and conjure up experiences that clearly haven't changed over years?
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I only care if the criticism is valid.
Or do we now expect that the only time we appear to get honesty, they need to preside over the remaining match day 22 and conjure up experiences that clearly haven't changed over years?
@antipodean said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
I only care if the criticism is valid.
Or do we now expect that the only time we appear to get honesty, they need to preside over the remaining match day 22 and conjure up experiences that clearly haven't changed over years?
He was talking about the issues with our back three, and singled out Rieko as the problem, Jordan as the apparent saviour despite his ongoing issues under the high ball, and then completely ignored the idiot that cost us the match in the final 10 (who also has a history of getting himself carded going for high balls!). Not saying his criticism wasn't valid, but the bias is next level, so pretty hard to take him seriously.
It comes back to former players never criticising players they were mates with or from their own province, have to take what they say with a giant grain of salt. Reece should have absolutely hung out to dry after that performance, if he gets picked against the Boks I will lose my shit.
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@antipodean said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
I only care if the criticism is valid.
Or do we now expect that the only time we appear to get honesty, they need to preside over the remaining match day 22 and conjure up experiences that clearly haven't changed over years?
He was talking about the issues with our back three, and singled out Rieko as the problem, Jordan as the apparent saviour despite his ongoing issues under the high ball, and then completely ignored the idiot that cost us the match in the final 10 (who also has a history of getting himself carded going for high balls!). Not saying his criticism wasn't valid, but the bias is next level, so pretty hard to take him seriously.
It comes back to former players never criticising players they were mates with or from their own province, have to take what they say with a giant grain of salt. Reece should have absolutely hung out to dry after that performance, if he gets picked against the Boks I will lose my shit.
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@antipodean said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
I only care if the criticism is valid.
Or do we now expect that the only time we appear to get honesty, they need to preside over the remaining match day 22 and conjure up experiences that clearly haven't changed over years?
He was talking about the issues with our back three, and singled out Rieko as the problem, Jordan as the apparent saviour despite his ongoing issues under the high ball, and then completely ignored the idiot that cost us the match in the final 10 (who also has a history of getting himself carded going for high balls!). Not saying his criticism wasn't valid, but the bias is next level, so pretty hard to take him seriously.
It comes back to former players never criticising players they were mates with or from their own province, have to take what they say with a giant grain of salt. Reece should have absolutely hung out to dry after that performance, if he gets picked against the Boks I will lose my shit.
I think it's completely valid that he points out Rieko has had this skill deficit for that long. And in context from the snippet I watched they were talking about the ability of wingers to contest and catch a high ball.
After all he did support Rieko in the spat with Sexton.
And I'm no stranger to the club in favour of replacing Reece. I've got the flag and scarf.
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@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@antipodean said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
I only care if the criticism is valid.
Or do we now expect that the only time we appear to get honesty, they need to preside over the remaining match day 22 and conjure up experiences that clearly haven't changed over years?
He was talking about the issues with our back three, and singled out Rieko as the problem, Jordan as the apparent saviour despite his ongoing issues under the high ball, and then completely ignored the idiot that cost us the match in the final 10 (who also has a history of getting himself carded going for high balls!). Not saying his criticism wasn't valid, but the bias is next level, so pretty hard to take him seriously.
It comes back to former players never criticising players they were mates with or from their own province, have to take what they say with a giant grain of salt. Reece should have absolutely hung out to dry after that performance, if he gets picked against the Boks I will lose my shit.
I think it's completely valid that he points out Rieko has had this skill deficit for that long. And in context from the snippet I watched they were talking about the ability of wingers to contest and catch a high ball.
After all he did support Rieko in the spat with Sexton.
And I'm no stranger to the club in favour of replacing Reece. I've got the flag and scarf.
@antipodean said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@antipodean said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
I only care if the criticism is valid.
Or do we now expect that the only time we appear to get honesty, they need to preside over the remaining match day 22 and conjure up experiences that clearly haven't changed over years?
He was talking about the issues with our back three, and singled out Rieko as the problem, Jordan as the apparent saviour despite his ongoing issues under the high ball, and then completely ignored the idiot that cost us the match in the final 10 (who also has a history of getting himself carded going for high balls!). Not saying his criticism wasn't valid, but the bias is next level, so pretty hard to take him seriously.
It comes back to former players never criticising players they were mates with or from their own province, have to take what they say with a giant grain of salt. Reece should have absolutely hung out to dry after that performance, if he gets picked against the Boks I will lose my shit.
I think it's completely valid that he points out Rieko has had this skill deficit for that long. And in context from the snippet I watched they were talking about the ability of wingers to contest and catch a high ball.
After all he did support Rieko in the spat with Sexton.
And I'm no stranger to the club in favour of replacing Reece. I've got the flag and scarf.
Dagg was correct in what he said.
people what ex players to speak out but when they do it upsets people because is not what they like to hear. -
@antipodean said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@antipodean said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
I only care if the criticism is valid.
Or do we now expect that the only time we appear to get honesty, they need to preside over the remaining match day 22 and conjure up experiences that clearly haven't changed over years?
He was talking about the issues with our back three, and singled out Rieko as the problem, Jordan as the apparent saviour despite his ongoing issues under the high ball, and then completely ignored the idiot that cost us the match in the final 10 (who also has a history of getting himself carded going for high balls!). Not saying his criticism wasn't valid, but the bias is next level, so pretty hard to take him seriously.
It comes back to former players never criticising players they were mates with or from their own province, have to take what they say with a giant grain of salt. Reece should have absolutely hung out to dry after that performance, if he gets picked against the Boks I will lose my shit.
I think it's completely valid that he points out Rieko has had this skill deficit for that long. And in context from the snippet I watched they were talking about the ability of wingers to contest and catch a high ball.
After all he did support Rieko in the spat with Sexton.
And I'm no stranger to the club in favour of replacing Reece. I've got the flag and scarf.
Dagg was correct in what he said.
people what ex players to speak out but when they do it upsets people because is not what they like to hear.@Chris said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@antipodean said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@antipodean said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
I only care if the criticism is valid.
Or do we now expect that the only time we appear to get honesty, they need to preside over the remaining match day 22 and conjure up experiences that clearly haven't changed over years?
He was talking about the issues with our back three, and singled out Rieko as the problem, Jordan as the apparent saviour despite his ongoing issues under the high ball, and then completely ignored the idiot that cost us the match in the final 10 (who also has a history of getting himself carded going for high balls!). Not saying his criticism wasn't valid, but the bias is next level, so pretty hard to take him seriously.
It comes back to former players never criticising players they were mates with or from their own province, have to take what they say with a giant grain of salt. Reece should have absolutely hung out to dry after that performance, if he gets picked against the Boks I will lose my shit.
I think it's completely valid that he points out Rieko has had this skill deficit for that long. And in context from the snippet I watched they were talking about the ability of wingers to contest and catch a high ball.
After all he did support Rieko in the spat with Sexton.
And I'm no stranger to the club in favour of replacing Reece. I've got the flag and scarf.
Dagg was correct in what he said.
people what ex players to speak out but when they do it upsets people because is not what they like to hear.And nobody has actually disputed his point. But why do you think he singled out Rieko, but ignored Sevu who is worse under the high ball and was atrocious on the weekend? I find it hard to take him seriously when he's discussing our problems with the back three but doesn't even mention the player that is objectively the worst of the three under the high ball. I reckon if you asked him to pick his back three, it'd exclude Rieko but still include Sevu.
I get that people are craving real analysis that is actually critical of our poor play, but this isn't really that. This is more Dagg feeling comfortable having a dig at a player he doesn't like, while ignoring or praising his own. The fact that people see this as good analysis just because someone finally said something critical shows just how bad things are in NZ media.
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An ex player says something negative about a player and he gets the old fashioned 'fuck off'. Do we want honesty or not?
@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
An ex player says something negative about a player and he gets the old fashioned 'fuck off'. Do we want honesty or not?
There needs to be some balance. Rieko was the only back 3 not to get carded.
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@Chris said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@antipodean said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@antipodean said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
I only care if the criticism is valid.
Or do we now expect that the only time we appear to get honesty, they need to preside over the remaining match day 22 and conjure up experiences that clearly haven't changed over years?
He was talking about the issues with our back three, and singled out Rieko as the problem, Jordan as the apparent saviour despite his ongoing issues under the high ball, and then completely ignored the idiot that cost us the match in the final 10 (who also has a history of getting himself carded going for high balls!). Not saying his criticism wasn't valid, but the bias is next level, so pretty hard to take him seriously.
It comes back to former players never criticising players they were mates with or from their own province, have to take what they say with a giant grain of salt. Reece should have absolutely hung out to dry after that performance, if he gets picked against the Boks I will lose my shit.
I think it's completely valid that he points out Rieko has had this skill deficit for that long. And in context from the snippet I watched they were talking about the ability of wingers to contest and catch a high ball.
After all he did support Rieko in the spat with Sexton.
And I'm no stranger to the club in favour of replacing Reece. I've got the flag and scarf.
Dagg was correct in what he said.
people what ex players to speak out but when they do it upsets people because is not what they like to hear.And nobody has actually disputed his point. But why do you think he singled out Rieko, but ignored Sevu who is worse under the high ball and was atrocious on the weekend? I find it hard to take him seriously when he's discussing our problems with the back three but doesn't even mention the player that is objectively the worst of the three under the high ball. I reckon if you asked him to pick his back three, it'd exclude Rieko but still include Sevu.
I get that people are craving real analysis that is actually critical of our poor play, but this isn't really that. This is more Dagg feeling comfortable having a dig at a player he doesn't like, while ignoring or praising his own. The fact that people see this as good analysis just because someone finally said something critical shows just how bad things are in NZ media.
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
And nobody has actually disputed his point. But why do you think he singled out Rieko, but ignored Sevu who is worse under the high ball and was atrocious on the weekend?
Agreed, both Rieko and Sevu sucked, and both have not developed any real skill under the high ball.
Jordan is a bit hot and cold, but offers way more in attack with his angled runs.
They could all improve.
I think there's a chance they revert back to Rieko at center. He's better there than wing despite his weak distribution skills.
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@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
And nobody has actually disputed his point. But why do you think he singled out Rieko, but ignored Sevu who is worse under the high ball and was atrocious on the weekend?
Agreed, both Rieko and Sevu sucked, and both have not developed any real skill under the high ball.
Jordan is a bit hot and cold, but offers way more in attack with his angled runs.
They could all improve.
I think there's a chance they revert back to Rieko at center. He's better there than wing despite his weak distribution skills.
@Frank said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
And nobody has actually disputed his point. But why do you think he singled out Rieko, but ignored Sevu who is worse under the high ball and was atrocious on the weekend?
Agreed, both Rieko and Sevu sucked, and both have not developed any real skill under the high ball.
Jordan is a bit hot and cold, but offers way more in attack with his angled runs.
They could all improve.
I think there's a chance they revert back to Rieko at center. He's better there than wing despite his weak distribution skills.
Potentially a move back to 13, probably unlikely, but he would also likely be a better bench option than ALB.
The most disturbing thing is JB coming back from Leinster playing really well and then after a few games his good form crumbles away. There are some series issues with the attack and back line coaching.
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It used to be said that players got better and improved in the All Blacks environment.
But in recent years we've seen players get worse and even sometimes wilt in the All Blacks.
It's striking to hear players say they enjoy playing for their super franchises more than the ABs.
It suggests that something is very rotten indeed in the national team set-up.
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@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
More from Dagg
https://www.rugbypass.com/news/israel-dagg-criticises-all-black-wingers-performance/
“You look at our chases at the moment, and Rieko, this isn’t a plot on him as a person, but he just can’t get up and chase and put pressure on the ball, like you look at him and he’s getting up and he’s kind of just half hearted into the into the jump,” Dagg said on Sport Nation’s Breakfast with Scotty & Izzy. “He’s not winning it, he’s not brave, he’s not courageous, and he’s not getting up and trying to put a knee in the bloke, like, that’s what you’ve got to do.” “It’s a 50-50 play, and right now it’s a 70-30 play, because opposition would have seen that and it’s gonna continue to come throughout the rest of the year and if we do not fix that, it’s gonna be a difficult season.” Dagg gives credit to Argentina whose kicks were accurate, and not too far that their chasers couldn’t get up and contest. “Argentina, they kicked really well, they weren’t kicking it too long, and I think that’s the problem at the moment. from our own kicks, we are kicking it too long and there’s not enough height on it. “So you’re not giving our chasers a genuine option to get up and disrupt, I’ve got to be completely honest, there’s only one bloke there at the back at the moment they can catch high ball, and you’re relying heavily on a Will Jordan to get up and and do what’s asked of him.”That just sounds like he has an axe to grind with Rieko. Jordan was poor as well and has never been great under the high ball, and Reece is even worse than Rieko but also throws in moronic brain explosions that cost us games, like going for a dumb ass one handed intercept just when we had the upper hand. Not even worth a mention? It was all just Rieko being lazy? Fuck off Dagg.
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@antipodean said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
I only care if the criticism is valid.
Or do we now expect that the only time we appear to get honesty, they need to preside over the remaining match day 22 and conjure up experiences that clearly haven't changed over years?
He was talking about the issues with our back three, and singled out Rieko as the problem, Jordan as the apparent saviour despite his ongoing issues under the high ball, and then completely ignored the idiot that cost us the match in the final 10 (who also has a history of getting himself carded going for high balls!). Not saying his criticism wasn't valid, but the bias is next level, so pretty hard to take him seriously.
It comes back to former players never criticising players they were mates with or from their own province, have to take what they say with a giant grain of salt. Reece should have absolutely hung out to dry after that performance, if he gets picked against the Boks I will lose my shit.
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@antipodean said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
I only care if the criticism is valid.
Or do we now expect that the only time we appear to get honesty, they need to preside over the remaining match day 22 and conjure up experiences that clearly haven't changed over years?
He was talking about the issues with our back three, and singled out Rieko as the problem, Jordan as the apparent saviour despite his ongoing issues under the high ball, and then completely ignored the idiot that cost us the match in the final 10 (who also has a history of getting himself carded going for high balls!). Not saying his criticism wasn't valid, but the bias is next level, so pretty hard to take him seriously.
It comes back to former players never criticising players they were mates with or from their own province, have to take what they say with a giant grain of salt. Reece should have absolutely hung out to dry after that performance, if he gets picked against the Boks I will lose my shit.
I don’t want to see Reece anywhere near Eden Park.
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@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
And nobody has actually disputed his point. But why do you think he singled out Rieko, but ignored Sevu who is worse under the high ball and was atrocious on the weekend?
Agreed, both Rieko and Sevu sucked, and both have not developed any real skill under the high ball.
Jordan is a bit hot and cold, but offers way more in attack with his angled runs.
They could all improve.
I think there's a chance they revert back to Rieko at center. He's better there than wing despite his weak distribution skills.
@Frank said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
And nobody has actually disputed his point. But why do you think he singled out Rieko, but ignored Sevu who is worse under the high ball and was atrocious on the weekend?
Agreed, both Rieko and Sevu sucked, and both have not developed any real skill under the high ball.
Jordan is a bit hot and cold, but offers way more in attack with his angled runs.
They could all improve.
I think there's a chance they revert back to Rieko at center. He's better there than wing despite his weak distribution skills.
Rokocoko and Sivivatu got binned off in 2009 for not being able to catch a cold.
And their highs were much higher than Rieko's and Sevu's.
We owe these two chancers nothing.
