Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2
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On the red card: I think it was very much the unexpected pass that caused the contact to go that way - and that it was unexpected because BB had already over-run Roigard, hence the forward pass query.
If Beauden didn't have to catch at ball he wasn't expecting right at the line, he would have braced for impact too and it would have been the standard thing that happens all game every game. Just very unlucky.
I find it hard to believe that Beirne is going to deliberately shoulder charge someone in the head from a completely upright position while making zero attempt to tackle, because if he did that on a regular basis, he'd be getting red carded in every game, would be renowned as a thug, and wouldn't be picked because his actions would lose games.
The consistency/inconsistency in rulings is a completely different issue, but that sort of incident being a red card I think is bad for the game. As BB himself said, at least it was only 20 minutes. -
@No-Quarter said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
There are still significant issues with this current AB side, but it is great to see us actually winning the final 20 instead of other sides finishing on top of us. That's a big step in the right direction in terms of gameplan and use of the bench.
So... all we need is consistent red cards for the opposition and we'll finish strongly again?
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@reprobate I am TRYING to be positive here!!
To try to counter that point, I think the impact of their forwards tiring is less in the modern game given you can replace so much of your pack in the 2nd 40. If we'd built a lead during that period you could say that it had a big impact, but as it stands it was them that went ahead, so I don't think the impact of that card was as bad as it could have been for Ireland.
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@reprobate said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
On the red card: I think it was very much the unexpected pass that caused the contact to go that way - and that it was unexpected because BB had already over-run Roigard, hence the forward pass query.
If Beauden didn't have to catch at ball he wasn't expecting right at the line, he would have braced for impact too and it would have been the standard thing that happens all game every game. Just very unlucky.
I find it hard to believe that Beirne is going to deliberately shoulder charge someone in the head from a completely upright position while making zero attempt to tackle, because if he did that on a regular basis, he'd be getting red carded in every game, would be renowned as a thug, and wouldn't be picked because his actions would lose games.
The consistency/inconsistency in rulings is a completely different issue, but that sort of incident being a red card I think is bad for the game. As BB himself said, at least it was only 20 minutes.Just remember that intent doesn't matter at all under current rulings. Poor technique that leads to head contact like that is a red card. I don't agree with that at all, but that's what WR have implemented.
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@reprobate said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
I find it hard to believe that Beirne is going to deliberately shoulder charge someone in the head
Not sure anyone said he has, accidental contact with the head is still contact and under current framework, we saw what happened, and have seen what happens too manytimes.
@reprobate said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
The consistency/inconsistency in rulings is a completely different issue, but that sort of incident being a red card I think is bad for the game
Agree 100%, the inconsistent applicaiton of it, is a joke.
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@No-Quarter said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
Anyway, call me naive but I am feeling a bit more positive after the Ireland match. I've decided to put my grumpy hat away and try and focus on the positives here, well at least until we lose to Scotland, then my pitch fork will come out again with a vengeance.
Neither team were good in the first 60, the small field and confusion with the ref certainly didn't help. We can't afford to be that poor again or we will find ourselves too far behind, but, that final 20 was like AB teams of the past. We just finished all over them and it could very well have been 33-13 such was our dominance at the end. That is a hiding no matter how bad we played for the first 60.
The big positives for me were:
- Leicester was absolutely superb, I'll begrudgingly give that one to Razor, he has come back a much more complete player than before he left our shores. He is going to cause massive headaches for defenses, as I mentioned in the match thread, very SBW like in that he is strong in contact and can almost always free his arms for the offload. The likes of Jordan, Clarke and Carter should be on his shoulder every time he gets the ball.
- Clarke back to his best, and he was actually given some space on the outside as Leicester was attracting a lot of attention. We look so much more dangerous with a fully fit and firing Clarke on the wing.
- Sititi is working his way back into some very nice form and could wreck havoc on the final 20 - 30 minutes from the bench. Has the potential to be a real weapon for us in that role.
- Lakai. He is hugely underrated on this forum, he is far more powerful than the likes of Kirifi and the more he plays, the better he is going to get. His ceiling is a mile high IMO and I can see him being our long term 8. He was "quiet" in this match in that he didn't make any blockbusting runs, but he was the glue on defense around the ruck and I think he actually compliments Savea well. We just need more from our 6...
- The bench impact from our tighties was awesome, loved seeing ST making some of his characteristic barnstorming runs, and the props just dominated their opponents who had no answers at all. The bench is so important in the modern game, and we have the makings of a seriously potent one with the likes of ST, Tosi, Williams and Sititi. Add Pat T to that mix and we are going to be bloody hard to contain at the back end of a test.
- DMac did exactly what the coaches wanted from the bench, come on and inject some pace and energy against a tiring defense. He and BB actually linked up very well in the "dual" player maker role and the try that blew the game open was superb - the pop pass was magic and the timing of DMacs run absolutely perfect. Poetry in motion.
- Roigard. Even when he has a "quiet" game by his standards, he is still influential. He is already as important to this AB side as A Smith was. The ABs are a much better side when he is on the field. We have some depth there in Ratima and Hotham, but we really need one of them to step up as we can't expect Roigard to play 80 every match.
- Holland got the official MOTM, he didn't deserve that but he was very good and continues to grow into his role in the test arena. He's still an absolute newbie at this level but is playing like a seasoned pro. Another year or so and he'll be rated one of the worlds best locks IMO.
- Lastly, De Groot was excellent. I saw media giving him poor ratings as he was apparently "invisible", which really shows the state of the media's rugby knowledge. We had the upper hand at set piece and scrum, and on top of that he showed some superb soft skills with the draw and pass at crucial moments, movements which would have broken down with most other probs in world rugby. What more could you ask for?! Loved his work and he really helped keep us in the match in the first half.
There are still significant issues with this current AB side, but it is great to see us actually winning the final 20 instead of other sides finishing on top of us. That's a big step in the right direction in terms of gameplan and use of the bench.
When you see what Tupea and Leicester have given us over the last 2 games in contrast to what ALB brings you would have to think his days are well and truly numbered.
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@Jet nek minit ALB is selected for Scotland test on the bench to cover for Jordie’s injury
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@No-Quarter said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
@reprobate I am TRYING to be positive here!!
To try to counter that point, I think the impact of their forwards tiring is less in the modern game given you can replace so much of your pack in the 2nd 40. If we'd built a lead during that period you could say that it had a big impact, but as it stands it was them that went ahead, so I don't think the impact of that card was as bad as it could have been for Ireland.
Yeah sorry to bring you down bro.
It's less impactful, but I think it's still a pretty big deal: 20 minutes with 14 you may do well to limit the damage, but still have the fatigue from that effort affect you late in the game.
Think I'm right in saying that Beirne is one of their 80 minute guys too? (and he's certainly a workhorse). -
@taniwharugby said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
@reprobate said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
I find it hard to believe that Beirne is going to deliberately shoulder charge someone in the head
Not sure anyone said he has, accidental contact with the head is still contact and under current framework, we saw what happened, and have seen what happens too manytimes.
@reprobate said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
The consistency/inconsistency in rulings is a completely different issue, but that sort of incident being a red card I think is bad for the game
Agree 100%, the inconsistent applicaiton of it, is a joke.
Yeah it's a strange position to be in:
I disagree that those sorts of incidents should be a red card, so I'm unhappy about that.
It totally should be a red card based on how they say they are interpreting things, so I'm happy about that.
But they don't always interpret them that way, so now I don't know what the fuck I should think! -
@reprobate said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
@taniwharugby said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
@reprobate said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
I find it hard to believe that Beirne is going to deliberately shoulder charge someone in the head
Not sure anyone said he has, accidental contact with the head is still contact and under current framework, we saw what happened, and have seen what happens too manytimes.
@reprobate said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
The consistency/inconsistency in rulings is a completely different issue, but that sort of incident being a red card I think is bad for the game
Agree 100%, the inconsistent applicaiton of it, is a joke.
Yeah it's a strange position to be in:
I disagree that those sorts of incidents should be a red card, so I'm unhappy about that.
It totally should be a red card based on how they say they are interpreting things, so I'm happy about that.
But they don't always interpret them that way, so now I don't know what the fuck I should think!It is an indictment on the game when no one understands how decisions are arrived at and punishments delivered from one incident to the next
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@reprobate said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
On the red card: I think it was very much the unexpected pass that caused the contact to go that way - and that it was unexpected because BB had already over-run Roigard, hence the forward pass query.
If Beauden didn't have to catch at ball he wasn't expecting right at the line, he would have braced for impact too and it would have been the standard thing that happens all game every game. Just very unlucky.
I find it hard to believe that Beirne is going to deliberately shoulder charge someone in the head from a completely upright position while making zero attempt to tackle, because if he did that on a regular basis, he'd be getting red carded in every game, would be renowned as a thug, and wouldn't be picked because his actions would lose games.
The consistency/inconsistency in rulings is a completely different issue, but that sort of incident being a red card I think is bad for the game. As BB himself said, at least it was only 20 minutes.I don't think it was deliberate either. It was reckless though, and easily warranted a red card by the current rules and recent interpretations
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@reprobate said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
@No-Quarter said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
@reprobate I am TRYING to be positive here!!
To try to counter that point, I think the impact of their forwards tiring is less in the modern game given you can replace so much of your pack in the 2nd 40. If we'd built a lead during that period you could say that it had a big impact, but as it stands it was them that went ahead, so I don't think the impact of that card was as bad as it could have been for Ireland.
Yeah sorry to bring you down bro.
It's less impactful, but I think it's still a pretty big deal: 20 minutes with 14 you may do well to limit the damage, but still have the fatigue from that effort affect you late in the game.
Think I'm right in saying that Beirne is one of their 80 minute guys too? (and he's certainly a workhorse).We had 20 minutes with 14 in 2023 against a much better Irish side and still won.
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I noticed quite a few of the Irish pundits trotting out that excuse about the 14 men.
I don't recall the ABs having much control over the game over those twenty minutes or making the Irish make a ton of tackles so I'm not sure about that. I think they had to make a lot more in the second half.
It won't have helped them of course but I think it's a pretty convenient excuse for them, they had 0 line breaks all game and didn't play much rugby so I'm pretty neutral on it being a factor. Esp since Scott B and Jordie were both injury enforced substitutes so not like ABs didn't have some adversity to overcome.
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@Richie8-7 said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
@reprobate said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
@No-Quarter said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
@reprobate I am TRYING to be positive here!!
To try to counter that point, I think the impact of their forwards tiring is less in the modern game given you can replace so much of your pack in the 2nd 40. If we'd built a lead during that period you could say that it had a big impact, but as it stands it was them that went ahead, so I don't think the impact of that card was as bad as it could have been for Ireland.
Yeah sorry to bring you down bro.
It's less impactful, but I think it's still a pretty big deal: 20 minutes with 14 you may do well to limit the damage, but still have the fatigue from that effort affect you late in the game.
Think I'm right in saying that Beirne is one of their 80 minute guys too? (and he's certainly a workhorse).We had 20 minutes with 14 in 2023 against a much better Irish side and still won.
Not sure that's a great example. We started really well, and had to make a mountain of tackles and hang on for grim death late in the game to scrape the win because of those cards. Sam Whitelock with the turnover after 30+ phases, and I think Jordie also held someone up over the line? Replay that game 100 x and I think most times we lose it because of the cards.
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@MiketheSnow said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
Beirne wasn't set up to tackle. He was set up to brace for impact from a dummy runner.
So again, upright and driving up? Ball or no ball he put himself into that position.
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@reprobate said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
@Richie8-7 said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
@reprobate said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
@No-Quarter said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
@reprobate I am TRYING to be positive here!!
To try to counter that point, I think the impact of their forwards tiring is less in the modern game given you can replace so much of your pack in the 2nd 40. If we'd built a lead during that period you could say that it had a big impact, but as it stands it was them that went ahead, so I don't think the impact of that card was as bad as it could have been for Ireland.
Yeah sorry to bring you down bro.
It's less impactful, but I think it's still a pretty big deal: 20 minutes with 14 you may do well to limit the damage, but still have the fatigue from that effort affect you late in the game.
Think I'm right in saying that Beirne is one of their 80 minute guys too? (and he's certainly a workhorse).We had 20 minutes with 14 in 2023 against a much better Irish side and still won.
Not sure that's a great example. We started really well, and had to make a mountain of tackles and hang on for grim death late in the game to scrape the win because of those cards. Sam Whitelock with the turnover after 30+ phases, and I think Jordie also held someone up over the line? Replay that game 100 x and I think most times we lose it because of the cards.
So an example of a match where a team won is not a good example of a team winning with 14 players for 20 minutes? Good lord. Ireland didn't just lose on Sunday, they got hammered 4 tries to 1 and the final score flattered them.
Ireland also should have had a yellow card in 2023 for a high tackle that was never reviewed after we kicked a 50-22. And in that last play there were 2 forward passes, neck roll on Ioane and a clear penalty won by Ardie. So not only did we win with 14 players for 20 mins, we won against the tide of terrible decisions.
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@reprobate said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
Replay that game 100 x and I think most times we lose it because of the cards.
But we can't so we won't.
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@ACT-Crusader said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
@Jet nek minit ALB is selected for Scotland test on the bench to cover for Jordie’s injury
The same can be said for a host of other players who were sniffing around the team for the last few years.
Perenara, Rieko, Reece, ALB, Beaudy et al.
You need to have serious wheels or be a bruiser for test footy.
Look at the difference Roigard, Leicester, Clarke, Tupea, Leroy have made.
All those little unseen extra yards and weak shoulders they find add up to forward momentum and not getting caught behind the gain line.
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@Richie8-7 said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
@reprobate said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
@Richie8-7 said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
@reprobate said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
@No-Quarter said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
@reprobate I am TRYING to be positive here!!
To try to counter that point, I think the impact of their forwards tiring is less in the modern game given you can replace so much of your pack in the 2nd 40. If we'd built a lead during that period you could say that it had a big impact, but as it stands it was them that went ahead, so I don't think the impact of that card was as bad as it could have been for Ireland.
Yeah sorry to bring you down bro.
It's less impactful, but I think it's still a pretty big deal: 20 minutes with 14 you may do well to limit the damage, but still have the fatigue from that effort affect you late in the game.
Think I'm right in saying that Beirne is one of their 80 minute guys too? (and he's certainly a workhorse).We had 20 minutes with 14 in 2023 against a much better Irish side and still won.
Not sure that's a great example. We started really well, and had to make a mountain of tackles and hang on for grim death late in the game to scrape the win because of those cards. Sam Whitelock with the turnover after 30+ phases, and I think Jordie also held someone up over the line? Replay that game 100 x and I think most times we lose it because of the cards.
So an example of a match where a team won is not a good example of a team winning with 14 players for 20 minutes? Good lord. Ireland didn't just lose on Sunday, they got hammered 4 tries to 1 and the final score flattered them.
Ireland also should have had a yellow card in 2023 for a high tackle that was never reviewed after we kicked a 50-22. And in that last play there were 2 forward passes, neck roll on Ioane and a clear penalty won by Ardie. So not only did we win with 14 players for 20 mins, we won against the tide of terrible decisions.
It can be done, and obviously happens sometimes - but, "good lord", that doesn't mean the card doesn't matter.
We took the lead in about the 60th minute. They were poor, sure. But if we aren't in front for 3/4 of the game, I don't really think it's a hammering. -
@booboo said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
@MiketheSnow said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
Beirne wasn't set up to tackle. He was set up to brace for impact from a dummy runner.
So again, upright and driving up? Ball or no ball he put himself into that position.
He wasn't driving up at all.
