Wales v All Blacks
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I don't think Davidson was any better than any other referee. Twice in quick succession she made a decision only to be "overruled" by a TMO.
Once for Clarke's tackle busting run to score she's next to the ruck where Kirifi knocked on and said it went backwards.
Then practically immediately afterwards when she said she "I clearly have it on the line". Then the TMO tells her to stick with her on-field decision.
The only thing she did well was to keep penalising Wales for not rolling away. Everything else was bog standard these days.
So for all the "TMO is ruining the game", she's the one with the whistle changing her mind from what she's seen and what she's adjudicated.
@antipodean said in Wales v All Blacks:
I don't think Davidson was any better than any other referee. Twice in quick succession she made a decision only to be "overruled" by a TMO.
Once for Clarke's tackle busting run to score she's next to the ruck where Kirifi knocked on and said it went backwards.
Then practically immediately afterwards when she said she "I clearly have it on the line". Then the TMO tells her to stick with her on-field decision.
The only thing she did well was to keep penalising Wales for not rolling away. Everything else was bog standard these days.
So for all the "TMO is ruining the game", she's the one with the whistle changing her mind from what she's seen and what she's adjudicated.
I thought she had an excellent first half.
The unfortunate thing is that ref’s seem to think that they have cards in their pockets so they need to use them. She succumbed to that.
In fact, I wish ref’s actually sought to get through games WITHOUT going to the pocket.
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@antipodean said in Wales v All Blacks:
I don't think Davidson was any better than any other referee. Twice in quick succession she made a decision only to be "overruled" by a TMO.
Once for Clarke's tackle busting run to score she's next to the ruck where Kirifi knocked on and said it went backwards.
Then practically immediately afterwards when she said she "I clearly have it on the line". Then the TMO tells her to stick with her on-field decision.
The only thing she did well was to keep penalising Wales for not rolling away. Everything else was bog standard these days.
So for all the "TMO is ruining the game", she's the one with the whistle changing her mind from what she's seen and what she's adjudicated.
I thought she had an excellent first half.
The unfortunate thing is that ref’s seem to think that they have cards in their pockets so they need to use them. She succumbed to that.
In fact, I wish ref’s actually sought to get through games WITHOUT going to the pocket.
@pakman said in Wales v All Blacks:
@antipodean said in Wales v All Blacks:
I don't think Davidson was any better than any other referee. Twice in quick succession she made a decision only to be "overruled" by a TMO.
Once for Clarke's tackle busting run to score she's next to the ruck where Kirifi knocked on and said it went backwards.
Then practically immediately afterwards when she said she "I clearly have it on the line". Then the TMO tells her to stick with her on-field decision.
The only thing she did well was to keep penalising Wales for not rolling away. Everything else was bog standard these days.
So for all the "TMO is ruining the game", she's the one with the whistle changing her mind from what she's seen and what she's adjudicated.
I thought she had an excellent first half.
The unfortunate thing is that ref’s seem to think that they have cards in their pockets so they need to use them. She succumbed to that.
In fact, I wish ref’s actually sought to get through games WITHOUT going to the pocket.
Which of Wales' two yellow cards do you think weren't justified? They were pretty clear cut for me. If anything Plumtree was lucky to escape without a 20-minute red.
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@pakman said in Wales v All Blacks:
@antipodean said in Wales v All Blacks:
I don't think Davidson was any better than any other referee. Twice in quick succession she made a decision only to be "overruled" by a TMO.
Once for Clarke's tackle busting run to score she's next to the ruck where Kirifi knocked on and said it went backwards.
Then practically immediately afterwards when she said she "I clearly have it on the line". Then the TMO tells her to stick with her on-field decision.
The only thing she did well was to keep penalising Wales for not rolling away. Everything else was bog standard these days.
So for all the "TMO is ruining the game", she's the one with the whistle changing her mind from what she's seen and what she's adjudicated.
I thought she had an excellent first half.
The unfortunate thing is that ref’s seem to think that they have cards in their pockets so they need to use them. She succumbed to that.
In fact, I wish ref’s actually sought to get through games WITHOUT going to the pocket.
Which of Wales' two yellow cards do you think weren't justified? They were pretty clear cut for me. If anything Plumtree was lucky to escape without a 20-minute red.
@Mr-Fish said in Wales v All Blacks:
@pakman said in Wales v All Blacks:
@antipodean said in Wales v All Blacks:
I don't think Davidson was any better than any other referee. Twice in quick succession she made a decision only to be "overruled" by a TMO.
Once for Clarke's tackle busting run to score she's next to the ruck where Kirifi knocked on and said it went backwards.
Then practically immediately afterwards when she said she "I clearly have it on the line". Then the TMO tells her to stick with her on-field decision.
The only thing she did well was to keep penalising Wales for not rolling away. Everything else was bog standard these days.
So for all the "TMO is ruining the game", she's the one with the whistle changing her mind from what she's seen and what she's adjudicated.
I thought she had an excellent first half.
The unfortunate thing is that ref’s seem to think that they have cards in their pockets so they need to use them. She succumbed to that.
In fact, I wish ref’s actually sought to get through games WITHOUT going to the pocket.
Which of Wales' two yellow cards do you think weren't justified? They were pretty clear cut for me. If anything Plumtree was lucky to escape without a 20-minute red.
You’ve gotten sucked into the card mindset. As an AB fan, I’d have preferred both to just be penalties.
We’d have had a better game.Yes, I know the current rules/protocols but I personally don’t want to watch TMO bingo.
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If you're making head contact, a yellow card is almost inevitable under the current climate. That's the new norm due to the various CTE issues/lawsuits - far too big a risk for WR to roll that one back.
@Mr-Fish I grant you that.
But for ‘voluntary’ penalties I’d rather ref’s kept it in their pants.
Perhaps more assertiveness along the way would help? If I were a ref I might say to the captain that the crowd didn’t come along to see me giving out cards so for God’s sake tell your players to cut the crap.
Perhaps I’m just still riled from the ludicrousness of the Codie yellow!
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@Mr-Fish I grant you that.
But for ‘voluntary’ penalties I’d rather ref’s kept it in their pants.
Perhaps more assertiveness along the way would help? If I were a ref I might say to the captain that the crowd didn’t come along to see me giving out cards so for God’s sake tell your players to cut the crap.
Perhaps I’m just still riled from the ludicrousness of the Codie yellow!
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@pakman Fair - that Taylor yellow was baffling. Crawley got a card for the exact same thing against South Africa so at least there was some consistency there...
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@Mr-Fish I grant you that.
But for ‘voluntary’ penalties I’d rather ref’s kept it in their pants.
Perhaps more assertiveness along the way would help? If I were a ref I might say to the captain that the crowd didn’t come along to see me giving out cards so for God’s sake tell your players to cut the crap.
Perhaps I’m just still riled from the ludicrousness of the Codie yellow!
@pakman said in Wales v All Blacks:
@Mr-Fish I grant you that.
But for ‘voluntary’ penalties I’d rather ref’s kept it in their pants.
Perhaps more assertiveness along the way would help? If I were a ref I might say to the captain that the crowd didn’t come along to see me giving out cards so for God’s sake tell your players to cut the crap.
Perhaps I’m just still riled from the ludicrousness of the Codie yellow!
Teams tend to give away 'voluntary' penalties because they don't want to concede a try. As an alternative to the yellow card, how about we do something left field like award 7 point penalties for a period of time. Maybe as a one off or for 10 minutes? Anything is better than cards.
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@antipodean said in Wales v All Blacks:
I don't think Davidson was any better than any other referee. Twice in quick succession she made a decision only to be "overruled" by a TMO.
Once for Clarke's tackle busting run to score she's next to the ruck where Kirifi knocked on and said it went backwards.
Then practically immediately afterwards when she said she "I clearly have it on the line". Then the TMO tells her to stick with her on-field decision.
The only thing she did well was to keep penalising Wales for not rolling away. Everything else was bog standard these days.
So for all the "TMO is ruining the game", she's the one with the whistle changing her mind from what she's seen and what she's adjudicated.
I thought she had an excellent first half.
The unfortunate thing is that ref’s seem to think that they have cards in their pockets so they need to use them. She succumbed to that.
In fact, I wish ref’s actually sought to get through games WITHOUT going to the pocket.
@pakman it is a subtle change of mindset in how you look at something, because I agree with you in that it seems refs/TMO are looking at every situation as a way to issue a card, almost like they have KPIs around how many cards they issue
Why does this deserve card?
vs
How can I avoid issuing a card?@Crazy-Horse maybe issue more PTs for professional fouls inside the 22 and allow a tap restart?
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There's three occasions for cards: dangerous play, cynical play, repeat offending.
I think maybe we should look at finding a way around the repeat infringing ones. If 3 points isn't enough reward, would 4 be? Or changing the kick off following a penalty (either who does it or where from), so that you get the ball back in better field position after kicking one?
Thugs and deliberate cheats still need to go I think: spirit of the game and all that. -
There's three occasions for cards: dangerous play, cynical play, repeat offending.
I think maybe we should look at finding a way around the repeat infringing ones. If 3 points isn't enough reward, would 4 be? Or changing the kick off following a penalty (either who does it or where from), so that you get the ball back in better field position after kicking one?
Thugs and deliberate cheats still need to go I think: spirit of the game and all that.@reprobate said in Wales v All Blacks:
There's three occasions for cards: dangerous play, cynical play, repeat offending.
I think maybe we should look at finding a way around the repeat infringing ones. If 3 points isn't enough reward, would 4 be? Or changing the kick off following a penalty (either who does it or where from), so that you get the ball back in better field position after kicking one?
Thugs and deliberate cheats still need to go I think: spirit of the game and all that.Similar to the basketball team foul threshold? Once a team reaches the penalty threshold for the half, penalties could increase to four points?
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@pakman said in Wales v All Blacks:
@Mr-Fish I grant you that.
But for ‘voluntary’ penalties I’d rather ref’s kept it in their pants.
Perhaps more assertiveness along the way would help? If I were a ref I might say to the captain that the crowd didn’t come along to see me giving out cards so for God’s sake tell your players to cut the crap.
Perhaps I’m just still riled from the ludicrousness of the Codie yellow!
Teams tend to give away 'voluntary' penalties because they don't want to concede a try. As an alternative to the yellow card, how about we do something left field like award 7 point penalties for a period of time. Maybe as a one off or for 10 minutes? Anything is better than cards.
@Crazy-Horse said in Wales v All Blacks:
@pakman said in Wales v All Blacks:
@Mr-Fish I grant you that.
But for ‘voluntary’ penalties I’d rather ref’s kept it in their pants.
Perhaps more assertiveness along the way would help? If I were a ref I might say to the captain that the crowd didn’t come along to see me giving out cards so for God’s sake tell your players to cut the crap.
Perhaps I’m just still riled from the ludicrousness of the Codie yellow!
Teams tend to give away 'voluntary' penalties because they don't want to concede a try. As an alternative to the yellow card, how about we do something left field like award 7 point penalties for a period of time. Maybe as a one off or for 10 minutes? Anything is better than cards.
Not sure what you mean by "for a period of time". Please explain ...
Brainstorming an option how about automatic three points with PK restart on halfway?
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@pakman it is a subtle change of mindset in how you look at something, because I agree with you in that it seems refs/TMO are looking at every situation as a way to issue a card, almost like they have KPIs around how many cards they issue
Why does this deserve card?
vs
How can I avoid issuing a card?@Crazy-Horse maybe issue more PTs for professional fouls inside the 22 and allow a tap restart?
@taniwharugby said in Wales v All Blacks:
@pakman it is a subtle change of mindset in how you look at something, because I agree with you in that it seems refs/TMO are looking at every situation as a way to issue a card, almost like they have KPIs around how many cards they issue
Why does this deserve card?
vs
How can I avoid issuing a card?@Crazy-Horse maybe issue more PTs for professional fouls inside the 22 and allow a tap restart?
Didn't read this when I posted the above. Kindof #booboo.
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@reprobate said in Wales v All Blacks:
There's three occasions for cards: dangerous play, cynical play, repeat offending.
I think maybe we should look at finding a way around the repeat infringing ones. If 3 points isn't enough reward, would 4 be? Or changing the kick off following a penalty (either who does it or where from), so that you get the ball back in better field position after kicking one?
Thugs and deliberate cheats still need to go I think: spirit of the game and all that.Similar to the basketball team foul threshold? Once a team reaches the penalty threshold for the half, penalties could increase to four points?
@ShaquilleOatmeal said in Wales v All Blacks:
@reprobate said in Wales v All Blacks:
There's three occasions for cards: dangerous play, cynical play, repeat offending.
I think maybe we should look at finding a way around the repeat infringing ones. If 3 points isn't enough reward, would 4 be? Or changing the kick off following a penalty (either who does it or where from), so that you get the ball back in better field position after kicking one?
Thugs and deliberate cheats still need to go I think: spirit of the game and all that.Similar to the basketball team foul threshold? Once a team reaches the penalty threshold for the half, penalties could increase to four points?
Interesting idea. I'm pretty sure the average number of penalties per game for different refs would be quite different - so with some refs it would be worthwhile, with others not. Which may be a problem, maybe not.
A penalty needs to be attractive enough vs a try for the attacking team to consider kicking it, and enough of a deterrent for the defending team to stop infringing. Removing the repeat infringements card would remove some of the 'keep playing for more penalties and a card' motivation, but the deterrent needs to be stronger.
I'm also sick of playing under 40m advantage until a try is scored. It makes heaps of amazing defensive plays worthless.
Just keep it to 3 points and a goal line drop out restart might work? -
There's three occasions for cards: dangerous play, cynical play, repeat offending.
I think maybe we should look at finding a way around the repeat infringing ones. If 3 points isn't enough reward, would 4 be? Or changing the kick off following a penalty (either who does it or where from), so that you get the ball back in better field position after kicking one?
Thugs and deliberate cheats still need to go I think: spirit of the game and all that.@reprobate said in Wales v All Blacks:
There's three occasions for cards: dangerous play, cynical play, repeat offending.
I think maybe we should look at finding a way around the repeat infringing ones. If 3 points isn't enough reward, would 4 be? Or changing the kick off following a penalty (either who does it or where from), so that you get the ball back in better field position after kicking one?
Thugs and deliberate cheats still need to go I think: spirit of the game and all that.Thugs can be dealt with good old red cards. Deliberate cheats maybe look at variation of penalty try. So if in 22 automatic 3 and if within 5m automatic 5?
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@taniwharugby said in Wales v All Blacks:
@pakman it is a subtle change of mindset in how you look at something, because I agree with you in that it seems refs/TMO are looking at every situation as a way to issue a card, almost like they have KPIs around how many cards they issue
Why does this deserve card?
vs
How can I avoid issuing a card?@Crazy-Horse maybe issue more PTs for professional fouls inside the 22 and allow a tap restart?
Didn't read this when I posted the above. Kindof #booboo.
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@ShaquilleOatmeal said in Wales v All Blacks:
@reprobate said in Wales v All Blacks:
There's three occasions for cards: dangerous play, cynical play, repeat offending.
I think maybe we should look at finding a way around the repeat infringing ones. If 3 points isn't enough reward, would 4 be? Or changing the kick off following a penalty (either who does it or where from), so that you get the ball back in better field position after kicking one?
Thugs and deliberate cheats still need to go I think: spirit of the game and all that.Similar to the basketball team foul threshold? Once a team reaches the penalty threshold for the half, penalties could increase to four points?
Interesting idea. I'm pretty sure the average number of penalties per game for different refs would be quite different - so with some refs it would be worthwhile, with others not. Which may be a problem, maybe not.
A penalty needs to be attractive enough vs a try for the attacking team to consider kicking it, and enough of a deterrent for the defending team to stop infringing. Removing the repeat infringements card would remove some of the 'keep playing for more penalties and a card' motivation, but the deterrent needs to be stronger.
I'm also sick of playing under 40m advantage until a try is scored. It makes heaps of amazing defensive plays worthless.
Just keep it to 3 points and a goal line drop out restart might work?@reprobate Just brainstorming here but how about advancing the mark for the penalty 10 or 20 metres for repeat offending?
Or (this is very random) five minute power plays - the non-offending team receives more points for tries, drop goals and penalties within the time period, handling errors by the non-offending team result in a free kick to that team, rather than a scrum to the defending team, the non-offending team are allowed an extra stoppage for mauls, that sort of random stuff. I haven't thought that through at all but it popped into my head.
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@reprobate Just brainstorming here but how about advancing the mark for the penalty 10 or 20 metres for repeat offending?
Or (this is very random) five minute power plays - the non-offending team receives more points for tries, drop goals and penalties within the time period, handling errors by the non-offending team result in a free kick to that team, rather than a scrum to the defending team, the non-offending team are allowed an extra stoppage for mauls, that sort of random stuff. I haven't thought that through at all but it popped into my head.
@ShaquilleOatmeal I like your thinking in some ways, but will admit ti not liking another system that will just cause arguments.
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or, and i know it's a crazy idea but, how about when the ref says "i have repeatedly penalised you for laying in the ruck to slow the ball down, next time someone goes" the other team says okay you got me, and stops doing that? Wales were fucking lucky not to get one in the first half with their first warning. She then gave another warning in the 2nd half before old mate got sent.
I actually thought the high shot yellow was more dodgy as it was one of those ones where the head contact was the whiplash effect rather than shoulder to jaw. Not the tacklers fault, it's DMacs for selling his mate out.
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@booboo maybe extend it to a tap restart, or allow them to kick for touch from the restart, meaning they are right back in the red zone on attack.
@taniwharugby said in Wales v All Blacks:
@booboo maybe extend it to a tap restart, or allow them to kick for touch from the restart, meaning they are right back in the red zone on attack.
Yeah. What I meant. A PK on the half to restart. Gives the option of a tap, kick to touch, or shot at goal.
