West Indies tour of NZ
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@MN5 said in West Indies tour of NZ:
@Chris said in West Indies tour of NZ:
@MN5 said in West Indies tour of NZ:
@Chris said in West Indies tour of NZ:
@MN5 said in West Indies tour of NZ:
@Chris said in West Indies tour of NZ:
Latham with 3 test Centuries and Captaining the team to a 2 -0 Test Series should also be in the mix for Man of the Series.
Duffy also leading the attack should in the mix.and keeping at a pinch too ! completely forgot his first ton.........
But there were quite a few good batting performances but taking wickets wins matches, would have to be Duffy now I've thought about it.
Black Caps top five is absolutely set in stone barring injury.
Hay should replace Blundell. Whether he will is at the whim of the selectors.
Phillips wasn't hugely compelling in terms of batting and bowling, sort of went ok, absolutely dynamic fielding though, will be interesting what happens when Santner is fit. Bracewell will only get a look in if those two are both broken.
Duffy as others have mentioned has to be considered for when everyone is available, particularly with the injury prone nature of the others.
Smith and Foulkes a bit meh. Neither took their chances for a big performance.
Rae filled in admirably.
Tickner bloody good until injured. He'll be back.
Nice to see Patel get wickets at home as yet another bowling option.
Yep agree with all of that, I think you summed it up perfectly,I saw it the same way.
Duffy adds some depth with Henry,O’Rourke and Jamieson back.
> You know my thoughts on the wk that is a no brainer for me.
Rae worked hard he didn’t let us down but he sits way back from the 4 mentioned above.
Smith and Foulkes not really test bowlers or allrounders as yet.
Tickner went well but does spray it a bit he is a ok sub if one the top 4 go down.I hope we have our top bowling attack for 3 big test series coming,England,India and Australia we will struggle big time if we have to select from outside those 4.
First class and test averages don’t always marry up for whatever reason but if he can keep with an average of 40 plus he will be an absolute gun for NZ.
Gilly’s don’t grow on trees, this guy needs to be nurtured particularly as he is still young with years of international cricket ahead of him.
Blundell has done a job ( despite batting woes of late ) but this guy is the future.
As someone said earlier, no one owns the jersey/cap
Hay for me is one of the best Gloveman I have seen he moves really well, gets in to catching positions easily.
The sort of WK you don't notice unless you are watching him intently just gets it done with ease.
It is harder to find good WK these days a lot of the young players coming through give it up or don't want to take it on, they see it as too much hard work which it is, it is a skill you have to keep working on.
His batting has real potential.
Blundel was a good player but time has now caught up with him it is not easy being a Wk on the wrong side of 35.Yeah back in the day specialist keepers averaged 20 odd or in some cases even lower. I think Alec Stewart was one of the first to change that, Jack Russell was supposedly the better keeper but Stewart filled the role at test level really well and his batting spoke for itself.
Very little to go on but from what I’ve seen in his only test Hay was brilliant behind the stumps whereas I think @Virgil pointed put that Blundell dropped one yesterday.
Keepers don’t have tangible stats like batsmen and bowlers though so hard to gauge.
Byes and dropped catches are key IMO. The keeper can't control the quality of the bowling (although can direct some improvements) but the least they can do is not drop anything (occasional impossible chances aside) and not give away runs (the occasional uncatchable bouncer aside). Video analysis helps but obviously that's not a stat as such.
Batting averages were always relevant, they were just seen as less important than keeping skill - a useful tiebreaker if a country had two similar quality options (Alan Knott was selected over Bob Taylor because of batting as an older example), but not as important as now. Shows the importance of all-rounders - if a team doesn't have all-rounders who can bat and bowl, the keeper needs to be able to bat.
Obligatory CricInfo Statsguru - this is all 85 keepers (surprisingly few) who played at least 20 test matches as designated keeper, in batting average order. 35 have averages > 30, with most of those (26) starting in the 1990s or later. 69 (nice) have averages > 20. The median keeper was Moin Khan (28.67).
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@Godder said in West Indies tour of NZ:
@MN5 said in West Indies tour of NZ:
@Chris said in West Indies tour of NZ:
@MN5 said in West Indies tour of NZ:
@Chris said in West Indies tour of NZ:
@MN5 said in West Indies tour of NZ:
@Chris said in West Indies tour of NZ:
Latham with 3 test Centuries and Captaining the team to a 2 -0 Test Series should also be in the mix for Man of the Series.
Duffy also leading the attack should in the mix.and keeping at a pinch too ! completely forgot his first ton.........
But there were quite a few good batting performances but taking wickets wins matches, would have to be Duffy now I've thought about it.
Black Caps top five is absolutely set in stone barring injury.
Hay should replace Blundell. Whether he will is at the whim of the selectors.
Phillips wasn't hugely compelling in terms of batting and bowling, sort of went ok, absolutely dynamic fielding though, will be interesting what happens when Santner is fit. Bracewell will only get a look in if those two are both broken.
Duffy as others have mentioned has to be considered for when everyone is available, particularly with the injury prone nature of the others.
Smith and Foulkes a bit meh. Neither took their chances for a big performance.
Rae filled in admirably.
Tickner bloody good until injured. He'll be back.
Nice to see Patel get wickets at home as yet another bowling option.
Yep agree with all of that, I think you summed it up perfectly,I saw it the same way.
Duffy adds some depth with Henry,O’Rourke and Jamieson back.
> You know my thoughts on the wk that is a no brainer for me.
Rae worked hard he didn’t let us down but he sits way back from the 4 mentioned above.
Smith and Foulkes not really test bowlers or allrounders as yet.
Tickner went well but does spray it a bit he is a ok sub if one the top 4 go down.I hope we have our top bowling attack for 3 big test series coming,England,India and Australia we will struggle big time if we have to select from outside those 4.
First class and test averages don’t always marry up for whatever reason but if he can keep with an average of 40 plus he will be an absolute gun for NZ.
Gilly’s don’t grow on trees, this guy needs to be nurtured particularly as he is still young with years of international cricket ahead of him.
Blundell has done a job ( despite batting woes of late ) but this guy is the future.
As someone said earlier, no one owns the jersey/cap
Hay for me is one of the best Gloveman I have seen he moves really well, gets in to catching positions easily.
The sort of WK you don't notice unless you are watching him intently just gets it done with ease.
It is harder to find good WK these days a lot of the young players coming through give it up or don't want to take it on, they see it as too much hard work which it is, it is a skill you have to keep working on.
His batting has real potential.
Blundel was a good player but time has now caught up with him it is not easy being a Wk on the wrong side of 35.Yeah back in the day specialist keepers averaged 20 odd or in some cases even lower. I think Alec Stewart was one of the first to change that, Jack Russell was supposedly the better keeper but Stewart filled the role at test level really well and his batting spoke for itself.
Very little to go on but from what I’ve seen in his only test Hay was brilliant behind the stumps whereas I think @Virgil pointed put that Blundell dropped one yesterday.
Keepers don’t have tangible stats like batsmen and bowlers though so hard to gauge.
Byes and dropped catches are key IMO. The keeper can't control the quality of the bowling (although can direct some improvements) but the least they can do is not drop anything (occasional impossible chances aside) and not give away runs (the occasional uncatchable bouncer aside). Video analysis helps but obviously that's not a stat as such.
Batting averages were always relevant, they were just seen as less important than keeping skill - a useful tiebreaker if a country had two similar quality options (Alan Knott was selected over Bob Taylor because of batting as an older example), but not as important as now. Shows the importance of all-rounders - if a team doesn't have all-rounders who can bat and bowl, the keeper needs to be able to bat.
Obligatory CricInfo Statsguru - this is all 85 keepers (surprisingly few) who played at least 20 test matches as designated keeper, in batting average order. 35 have averages > 30, with most of those (26) starting in the 1990s or later. 69 (nice) have averages > 20. The median keeper was Moin Khan (28.67).
Andy Flower is often forgotten about, had an amazing career especially when you think he was playing for Zimbabwe
For a long time Gilchrist averaged well over 50 was as high as 60 early in his career
We had it good with Watling too, he would be our goat as far as keepers go -
Incredible that there are only two guys with 10+ centuries in that list. Shown how hard it is to bat for a long time when you're also keeping wicket.
Watling didn't quite get there (7 as keeper) but he is one of only 9 keepers to also score a double century.
Special mention to Brendon Kuruppu who scored a double opening the batting for Sri Lanka, carrying his bat, then keeping wicket for the remainder of the match in a high scoring draw (he never kept wicket in a test again - who could blame him?).
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I'd love a stat on how well a player performed based on the score when they came into bat. It feels like Watling produced his best innings when we were 120/4, but struggled when it was 300/4 because his game wasn't really to go out and play aggressively, but he was selfless enough that he'd have a go and often get out cheaply. I dunno how accurate that is or if it's swayed by a couple of big innings when we were under the pump.
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@Cyclops said in West Indies tour of NZ:
I'd love a stat on how well a player performed based on the score when they came into bat. It feels like Watling produced his best innings when we were 120/4, but struggled when it was 300/4 because his game wasn't really to go out and play aggressively, but he was selfless enough that he'd have a go and often get out cheaply. I dunno how accurate that is or if it's swayed by a couple of big innings when we were under the pump.
Watling being part of 2 record 350+ run partnerships says a lot. He was clutch more often than not when we were in a pickle.
Just as valuable as Gilchrist just not in the same manner of batting -
@Virgil said in West Indies tour of NZ:
@Cyclops said in West Indies tour of NZ:
I'd love a stat on how well a player performed based on the score when they came into bat. It feels like Watling produced his best innings when we were 120/4, but struggled when it was 300/4 because his game wasn't really to go out and play aggressively, but he was selfless enough that he'd have a go and often get out cheaply. I dunno how accurate that is or if it's swayed by a couple of big innings when we were under the pump.
Watling being part of 2 record 350+ run partnerships says a lot. He was clutch more often than not when we were in a pickle.
Just as valuable as Gilchrist just not in the same manner of battingWatling > McCullum.
Very clear cut for me.
Kept for longer, didn't play as many spectacular innings but more reliable when it counted.
The Black Caps won 34 out of 75 test matches he played. That is incredible ( McCullum 30 in 101 )
Would probably make a better coach too.
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If I was doing a less than expert ranking of NZ keepers it would be something like.......
Watling
McCullum
Smith
Blundell
ParoreFirst two should be self explanatory, I remember Smithy being sensational in partnership with Hadlee although being very hit or miss with his batting ( as guys were in his era ) he may have been a better keeper than one and two......
Blundell despite his woes still did a good job overall even if Hay looks a superior replacement and Parore was a classy keeper and lovely looking batsman ( record doesn't really indicate it )
Apparently Wadsworth was very good but I'm too young to have seen him play.
Would any others warrant a mention ?
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@MN5 said in West Indies tour of NZ:
If I was doing a less than expert ranking of NZ keepers it would be something like.......
Watling
McCullum
Smith
Blundell
ParoreFirst two should be self explanatory, I remember Smithy being sensational in partnership with Hadlee although being very hit or miss with his batting ( as guys were in his era ) he may have been a better keeper than one and two......
Blundell despite his woes still did a good job overall even if Hay looks a superior replacement and Parore was a classy keeper and lovely looking batsman ( record doesn't really indicate it )
Apparently Wadsworth was very good but I'm too young to have seen him play.
Would any others warrant a mention ?
Only other NZ keeper on the linked list is Warren Lees who was also reasonable (Smith's predecessor). Smith was the best keeper I've seen play on the keeping side, but I also don't think there's enough in it to be worth selecting him in test cricket over Watling or McCullum so I agree with your order of 1-3 as a list of keepers without any thought as to team balance - I would put Parore above Blundell though. It's easy to forget how good a keeper Parore actually was, but he comes up on a lot of the all time stat lists and often near the top. On Parore's batting, he played as a specialist batter for a bit while we experimented with Lee Germon as specialist captain and keeper for anyone who remembers those particularly dark days of the 90s... Had he applied himself better at not getting out, he could well have been our best ever instead of debating whether he's 4th or 5th on our all time list.
Having said that, in an all time side, Hadlee, C Cairns and Vettori would be reasonable all rounders so needing Watling for his batting would be slightly less important unless specifically selecting a grinder at 6 or 7. Smith usually batted 8 or 9 and had a very high SR as he was a dasher rather than a grinder so would probably fit right into modern ODI/T20s in the later middle order or pinch hitter (he still has the world record for highest score at 9).
https://www.reddit.com/r/Cricket/comments/4xdsev/stats_looking_at_test_wicketkeepers/ - always dangerous looking at Reddit posts, but on the topic of byes, IDS Smith was the third lowest Byes per Innings on the list (scraped from match cards apparently so no Statsguru link available), which backs up him being the best NZ keeper ever on the keeping side of the ledger. Interestingly, Parore and McCullum were both better than Watling on that measure, but Watling also hadn't finished playing yet so may have improved since the work was done.
