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@dogmeat said in Pike river:
There's any number of political elements starting with John Key guaranteeing that the government would get the bodies out.
Clearly safety has to be the paramount concern, but you don't have to be a "leftard" to have sympathy for the grieving families who just want to have closure.
Those families have assembled a number of overseas mining experts who say that the mine can be re-entered to remove the bodies without endangering lives.
Now I'm no mining expert but it seems to come down to whose experts you believe.
The families clearly think that Solid Energy is hiding behind the safety argument because they're bankrupt and that the government are hiding behind the sorry it's nothing to do with us - it's for Solid Energy to decide - which leads back to Key's original broken promise.
Who the hell knows the reality? but it's certainly not as simple as lazily blaming the leftards
Your first sentence is typical of the narrative and disinformation that has built up about this. At no point did Key guarantee that the govt would get the bodies out. Just didnt happen, yet the narrative grew as people spread it.
Key did not break any promise.
You can easily have closure without needing a body, happens all the time. You have to have sympathy with the families, but because they lost loved ones, not because they want to get buried bodies out to rebury them, I dont think it is worth the risk no matter how small to retrieve the bodies.Edit- I should have read the rest of the posts which have already debunked dogmeats recollection. It is still illustrative of easily a false narrative gains traction though.
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David Farrar just tweeted
"Solid Energy Directors face up to five years imprisonment and/or $600,000 fines if someone got harmed in Pike, if opened against advice"
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@Baron-Silas-Greenback pfft, they probably earn that in a week, just open it, let people in...it is for a good cause, it doesnt matter if more people die.
Still saying in the Beehive that Key promised to get them out...
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@Baron-Silas-Greenback I should have put quote marks around the guaranteeing.
I do hope those posters expounding on how easy it is to have closure never have to face a situation like this.
My experience with sudden death is fortunately slim but I've talked to enough people to know there is no hard and fast rules.
Some people draw consolation from going to a grave site and genuinely feel connected to their lost one in doing so.
I've been to my mothers grave about 4 times in 13 years and feel no need to go at all. Different strokes
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@dogmeat said in Pike river:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback I should have put quote marks around the guaranteeing.
I do hope those posters expounding on how easy it is to have closure never have to face a situation like this.
My experience with sudden death is fortunately slim but I've talked to enough people to know there is no hard and fast rules.
Some people draw consolation from going to a grave site and genuinely feel connected to their lost one in doing so.
I've been to my mothers grave about 4 times in 13 years and feel no need to go at all. Different strokes
No, you just should not have followed a false narrative so easily. Your entire first post was built on an assumption that Key had said something he had not.
Then there is the money side of it, where do you draw the line at the cost? 1 million? 10 million? 100 million?
Taxpayers will have to foot the bill, and ultimately I would rather they spent the money on keeping people alive than retrieving bodies. There has to be a limit surely? -
@taniwharugby said in Pike river:
Still saying in the Beehive that Key promised to get them out...
And sadly as this thread shows people are ready to lap that stuff up.
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I've done minimal research on this, but does anybody know if there is a reason why they can't send robots down there to take a look and see whats happening? Taking a look at maps, it looks like it's around 2km distance from entrance to estimates of where the bodies are - this should be plenty of radio signal shouldn't it?
I should add, there is absolutely nothing to be gained by getting whats left of the bodies out now. They will probably be nothing but skeletons anymore.
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@MajorRage said in Pike river:
I've done minimal research on this, but does anybody know if there is a reason why they can't send robots down there to take a look and see whats happening? Taking a look at maps, it looks like it's around 2km distance from entrance to estimates of where the bodies are - this should be plenty of radio signal shouldn't it?
I should add, there is absolutely nothing to be gained by getting whats left of the bodies out now. They will probably be nothing but skeletons anymore.
I think the electrics of a robot have a good chance of setting off an explosion?
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@MajorRage if they weren't vaporised in the blast .
They already tried robots, it didn't end well.
http://m.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10838786 -
@Baron-Silas-Greenback Possibly, although electronics technology should be sufficient to avoid this - as long as they don't use a Samsung note 7.
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@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Pike river:
@taniwharugby said in Pike river:
Still saying in the Beehive that Key promised to get them out...
And sadly as this thread shows people are ready to lap that stuff up.
The narrative this year has been the right are all about " post truth" etc and yet with this, the tppa and the flag we've seen some outrageous lies being put forward from the left..
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again, having not been in thier position, it may seem harsh or insensitive (not my intention) but for me, the way I see closure, is for the families of those on MH370, who want to know what happened, where it happened, how they died (if in fact they did
...) whereas to me, in this instance, they know what happened, they know where they are, that they died, but they want the bodies removed, although I do wonder if it might add to the grief if they somehow find out some survived for sometime after as well.Assuming there have been, as suspected gases there the whole time, what effect will this have had on the bodies in terms of decomposition or will they have been preserved?
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@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Pike river:
@dogmeat said in Pike river:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback I should have put quote marks around the guaranteeing.
I do hope those posters expounding on how easy it is to have closure never have to face a situation like this.
My experience with sudden death is fortunately slim but I've talked to enough people to know there is no hard and fast rules.
Some people draw consolation from going to a grave site and genuinely feel connected to their lost one in doing so.
I've been to my mothers grave about 4 times in 13 years and feel no need to go at all. Different strokes
No, you just should not have followed a false narrative so easily. Your entire first post was built on an assumption that Key had said something he had not.
Then there is the money side of it, where do you draw the line at the cost? 1 million? 10 million? 100 million?
Taxpayers will have to foot the bill, and ultimately I would rather they spent the money on keeping people alive than retrieving bodies. There has to be a limit surely?My first post was actually about the intellectual laziness and prejudice of blaming everything on the "leftards " when the whole topic is much more nuanced than that.
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It is also simplistic to look at the semantics of government statements down the track when they were made at times of high emotion and would have been taken as an offer of support at the time. The families would certainly set the bar of 'everything possible' much higher than the reality and also set their own expectations on that.
Isn't this exactly what they are arguing though? They believe 'everything possible' isn't being done because they have experts telling them so. Other experts disagree with their experts so hence the debates.
I also think we don't fully understand the 'culture' around these mining communities. I would guess that there is a creed of 'not leaving anyone behind' that would have had a good sensible reason for existence many years ago when miners would have been looking out for each others safety underground and the dependence on each other was very high. A bit like the US Marines that never leave anyone behind they can potentially save despite full knowledge that in the cold light of day the best course of action would be to do so. -
@dogmeat said in Pike river:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Pike river:
@dogmeat said in Pike river:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback I should have put quote marks around the guaranteeing.
I do hope those posters expounding on how easy it is to have closure never have to face a situation like this.
My experience with sudden death is fortunately slim but I've talked to enough people to know there is no hard and fast rules.
Some people draw consolation from going to a grave site and genuinely feel connected to their lost one in doing so.
I've been to my mothers grave about 4 times in 13 years and feel no need to go at all. Different strokes
No, you just should not have followed a false narrative so easily. Your entire first post was built on an assumption that Key had said something he had not.
Then there is the money side of it, where do you draw the line at the cost? 1 million? 10 million? 100 million?
Taxpayers will have to foot the bill, and ultimately I would rather they spent the money on keeping people alive than retrieving bodies. There has to be a limit surely?My first post was actually about the intellectual laziness and prejudice of blaming everything on the "leftards " when the whole topic is much more nuanced than that.
Would it be intellectually lazy to suggest anyone blamed "everything " on the left? No one has actually done that.
There's obviously a fair bit more to this than just politics but when one side thinks they can use this as a means of giving the govt a black eye and is spreading misinformation that's something that's worthy of discussion.
I'd be interested in knowing who paid for the report that was given to parliament today and what sort of pressure they put on Allied concrete to convince them not to pour concrete last week.
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It seems strange to me to risk people's lives to retrieve bodies from a hole in the ground so you can bury them again somewhere else.
If it was me, I'd ask for the mine to be sealed, never to be used again and be marked as a memorial site.
As for the Lefts use of this for political gain, they have no shame so it's not a surprise. Gross.
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You are correct. It isn't a surprise but I also don't find it worthy commenting on.
I think where @dogmeat was coming from was that many topics on here go down the path of 'look at what the leftards are doing' as if there is a constant need to keep pointing out that the left of the political spectrum in NZ is currently populated by idiots.
Everyone knows that. It is bleedingly obvious and no more so than to anyone on here with left leaning ideals.
I haven't seen anyone here try to argue extreme left views so why the constant need to carry on about 'leftards' ad nauseum when the subject matter at hand is interesting enough to discuss on its own merits.
I know that there are plenty of posters here, myself included most of the time, that avoid comment on any political thread because of the tendency to have any dissenting view lumped in with the generalised 'leftard' view.
Starting topics with comments of how Little or the Greens have reacted to the situation is no better than Stuff comment idiots that use every story to expound their views on John Key.Anyway the 'leftards' aren't the ones really fighting for re-entry, they are just grasping at anything they may offer political capital (just as all politicians do when well behind in the polls). Personally I'm more interested in finding out whether the families really are being realistic, whether their experts are more or less expert than the govts ones etc.
I would like to think that a strong opposition leader presented with facts would help the families see the inevitable (if re-entry really is never going to happen) and help negotiate the next best closing for them.
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If a political party is using the deaths of 29 men for political gain it's understandable it becomes part of the conversation about it.
And then there's Winstons 2c worth....
Like I said the other aspects that interest me are how exactly they convinced allied not to supply concrete, that would have been a nice earner for them but they walked away.
Like I said the report the families presented yesterday was written by people with some pretty extensive credentials in mining, where did the money come from for that? There only really seems to be a core of around six families that have really been pushing this . What happens if people die trying to find the bodies?
Pike river
