Eligibility back on the agenda
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@semper said in Eligibility back on the agenda:
Someone else brought up the point that we are proposing a higher standard to play rugby for a country than to fight for that country. It's not a point that I care for, hence my comments which you appear to have entirely misread but well done on some further Ireland bashing. In relation to your general point, it would reduce the number of serious rugby playing nations by a third.
There is no Ireland bashing here. They are just a unique case. So when you want other countries to replicate France's policy - it gets tripped up where Ireland have either have a fatal disadvantage (not a country, cannot issue passports) or a clear advantage (two passports possible, one passport makes it very easy to poach from three other countries).
The aim of Pichot is to try and get player squads to pass the smell test not create different loopholes for the Home Unions to drive a bus through, NZ implementing this doesn't help that in any way.
@rotated said in Eligibility back on the agenda:
@semper said in Eligibility back on the agenda:
Someone else brought up the point that we are proposing a higher standard to play rugby for a country than to fight for that country. It's not a point that I care for, hence my comments which you appear to have entirely misread but well done on some further Ireland bashing. In relation to your general point, it would reduce the number of serious rugby playing nations by a third.
There is no Ireland bashing here. They are just a unique case. So when you want other countries to replicate France's policy - it gets tripped up where Ireland have either have a fatal disadvantage (not a country, cannot issue passports) or a clear advantage (two passports possible, one passport makes it very easy to poach from three other countries).
The aim of Pichot is to try and get player squads to pass the smell test not create different loopholes for the Home Unions to drive a bus through, NZ implementing this doesn't help that in any way.
Actually, come to think of it, you could use Irish passports in Ireland's case because if you are born on the island of Ireland, you're automatically entitled/eligible to an Ireland passport. A UK passport would not be valid by itself, but rather that a player would qualify for an Ireland one by dint of whether you were born on the island. Parentage rules would apply as the norm.
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Possible unilateral action from the RFU. I'll believe it only when it happens. However even if futile it sends a good message.
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Possible unilateral action from the RFU. I'll believe it only when it happens. However even if futile it sends a good message.
@Catogrande said in Eligibility back on the agenda:
Possible unilateral action from the RFU. I'll believe it only when it happens. However even if futile it sends a good message.
Unsurprising. It was known already that England supported a change and it suits them to announce it now. Politically, it may force other unions into having to give a public comment. Has the NZRU given an indication of its stance?
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@Catogrande said in Eligibility back on the agenda:
Possible unilateral action from the RFU. I'll believe it only when it happens. However even if futile it sends a good message.
Unsurprising. It was known already that England supported a change and it suits them to announce it now. Politically, it may force other unions into having to give a public comment. Has the NZRU given an indication of its stance?
@Pot-Hale No idea about the NZRU but it is starting to become interesting to see which unions are giving support to Pichot's initiative. There's the French saying they will only select those with a French passport, but as discussed earlier, passport eligibility is different in many countries.
If you recall there was the outcry when Zola Budd was granted a UK passport just in time for the LA Olympics when SA were banned from international sport. Even back then it was considered something of a cynical move with the Daily Mail prodding her Father to get her to apply for British citizenship due to her having a British Garndfather. Whilst the Grandfather rule is still there it was the seemingly indecent haste and the involvement of the Daily Fucking Mail.
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Yeah I agree. I'm curious that rugby journos have not been asking specific questions of respective unions about their stance on the issue. Or if they have reporting on what answers they were given.
There's this extract from an article on Stuff:
"Pumas great Agustín Pichot, the World Rugby vice-chairman, believes three years is too short a qualifying time and believes extending it will help the player drain from the Pacific Islands.Scotland, Ireland, France and Wales have been aggressive in targeting overseas players who can help their test cause while England aren't immune to it either with Fijian Nathan Hughes, a former Auckland loose forward, the latest recruit to join their lineup after seeing out his time."
Leaving aside that it makes no mention of Australia, I'm puzzled about the reference to PI players. Pichot has talked before about PI players pulling on a jersey for Ireland for example. To date, there's been Payne and White from NZ, and Strauss and Stander from SA who've been capped. Scotland have had Maitland (NZ) and Nel (SA). Where are all these players being drained from the PI playing for other countries? France? They're moving to a passport requirement.
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Yeah I agree. I'm curious that rugby journos have not been asking specific questions of respective unions about their stance on the issue. Or if they have reporting on what answers they were given.
There's this extract from an article on Stuff:
"Pumas great Agustín Pichot, the World Rugby vice-chairman, believes three years is too short a qualifying time and believes extending it will help the player drain from the Pacific Islands.Scotland, Ireland, France and Wales have been aggressive in targeting overseas players who can help their test cause while England aren't immune to it either with Fijian Nathan Hughes, a former Auckland loose forward, the latest recruit to join their lineup after seeing out his time."
Leaving aside that it makes no mention of Australia, I'm puzzled about the reference to PI players. Pichot has talked before about PI players pulling on a jersey for Ireland for example. To date, there's been Payne and White from NZ, and Strauss and Stander from SA who've been capped. Scotland have had Maitland (NZ) and Nel (SA). Where are all these players being drained from the PI playing for other countries? France? They're moving to a passport requirement.
@Pot-Hale With the general level of rugby journalism following soccer journalism down the toilet it is much easier to pen a few inflammatory words than to ask any real questions that require answering. It seems in relation to the various Unions, all the press do now is report the press releases that the Unions throw them.
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Yeah I agree. I'm curious that rugby journos have not been asking specific questions of respective unions about their stance on the issue. Or if they have reporting on what answers they were given.
There's this extract from an article on Stuff:
"Pumas great Agustín Pichot, the World Rugby vice-chairman, believes three years is too short a qualifying time and believes extending it will help the player drain from the Pacific Islands.Scotland, Ireland, France and Wales have been aggressive in targeting overseas players who can help their test cause while England aren't immune to it either with Fijian Nathan Hughes, a former Auckland loose forward, the latest recruit to join their lineup after seeing out his time."
Leaving aside that it makes no mention of Australia, I'm puzzled about the reference to PI players. Pichot has talked before about PI players pulling on a jersey for Ireland for example. To date, there's been Payne and White from NZ, and Strauss and Stander from SA who've been capped. Scotland have had Maitland (NZ) and Nel (SA). Where are all these players being drained from the PI playing for other countries? France? They're moving to a passport requirement.
@Pot-Hale The main difference there is that there is strong belief amongst many that the island nations should be on equal footing with the more established. The narrative that the world loves to walk all over the island boys, steal their players etc is a strongly held one, and what this is all about. Nobody cares much if a second or third string NZ player plays for somebody else, or if a young up and coming NZ player is lured away. NZ is already at the top table., thus no growth there.
This simply isn't the same for the island nations - how strong they would be if they genuinely were given a seat at the top table, I don't know. But I don't think the eligilbity is the root cause of the problem. I think it's more about clubs not releasing players (or "encouraging" international retirement, and then the big elephant in the room, corruption/mis-management at the top level of the unions.
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@Pot-Hale I think if Pichot stopped and thought about it he'd probably realise that a lot of those PI players he's thinking about in his head are actually from the Pacific Islands of NZ.
I expect the NZRU would be in favour of a longer time for residency (maybe they'd want to keep the school arrivals at same period). We're not anti residency players but it's not like they make up a huge number of our teams (remove the school arrival guys and it's only really Rawlinson and Devine in kind of recent times).
Weird that England is moving on it when they've recently been capping players under that eligibility. They probably should have instructed Eddie not to (or they went the other way, "quick, lock them in now").
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@Pot-Hale I think if Pichot stopped and thought about it he'd probably realise that a lot of those PI players he's thinking about in his head are actually from the Pacific Islands of NZ.
I expect the NZRU would be in favour of a longer time for residency (maybe they'd want to keep the school arrivals at same period). We're not anti residency players but it's not like they make up a huge number of our teams (remove the school arrival guys and it's only really Rawlinson and Devine in kind of recent times).
Weird that England is moving on it when they've recently been capping players under that eligibility. They probably should have instructed Eddie not to (or they went the other way, "quick, lock them in now").
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@Nepia probably include Masoe in that too?
Would be interesting to see how a no grandparent rule might adversely affect Samoa/Tonga.
@Bones said in Eligibility back on the agenda:
@Nepia probably include Masoe in that too?
Would be interesting to see how a no grandparent rule might adversely affect Samoa/Tonga.
I think he went to Wanganui Collegiate?
Yep, the no granparent rule would hammer the islands in a generation.
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@Bones said in Eligibility back on the agenda:
@Nepia probably include Masoe in that too?
Would be interesting to see how a no grandparent rule might adversely affect Samoa/Tonga.
I think he went to Wanganui Collegiate?
Yep, the no granparent rule would hammer the islands in a generation.
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@Nepia probably include Masoe in that too?
Would be interesting to see how a no grandparent rule might adversely affect Samoa/Tonga.
@Bones Is removal of the Grandparent rule really on the cards though? I agree it would be to the detriment of the PIs or any country that had a large economic migrancy situation.
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@Bones Is removal of the Grandparent rule really on the cards though? I agree it would be to the detriment of the PIs or any country that had a large economic migrancy situation.
@Catogrande said in Eligibility back on the agenda:
@Bones Is removal of the Grandparent rule really on the cards though? I agree it would be to the detriment of the PIs or any country that had a large economic migrancy situation.
Yep agree. I'd say IRFU would object to that.
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@Pot-Hale I think if Pichot stopped and thought about it he'd probably realise that a lot of those PI players he's thinking about in his head are actually from the Pacific Islands of NZ.
I expect the NZRU would be in favour of a longer time for residency (maybe they'd want to keep the school arrivals at same period). We're not anti residency players but it's not like they make up a huge number of our teams (remove the school arrival guys and it's only really Rawlinson and Devine in kind of recent times).
Weird that England is moving on it when they've recently been capping players under that eligibility. They probably should have instructed Eddie not to (or they went the other way, "quick, lock them in now").
@Nepia said in Eligibility back on the agenda:
(remove the school arrival guys and it's only really Rawlinson and Devine in kind of recent times).And Taumoepeau. So it's about 20 tests all up, a majority of which were off the bench and often injury call ups.
The biggest change that could benefit the ABs is eliminating the grandfather rule as it would stop depth from converting to Samoa/Tonga/Fiji and being ineligible for NZ. However for the good of the game no one from NZ would be pushing for this.
Residency also helps the islands, but to a larger extent just helps give the international game some integrity.
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@Bones Is removal of the Grandparent rule really on the cards though? I agree it would be to the detriment of the PIs or any country that had a large economic migrancy situation.
@Catogrande said in Eligibility back on the agenda:
@any country that had a large economic migrancy situation.
Such as New Zealand -> Australia. Although the likelihood of them actually targeting guys in the NRL U20s system or Aussie schoolboys rugby based on their parents/grandparents being Kiwis is unlikely given the wealth of talent back home. More of a don't call us we will call you type thing.
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@Bones said in Eligibility back on the agenda:
@Nepia probably include Masoe in that too?
Would be interesting to see how a no grandparent rule might adversely affect Samoa/Tonga.
I think he went to Wanganui Collegiate?
Yep, the no granparent rule would hammer the islands in a generation.
@Nepia said in Eligibility back on the agenda:
@Bones said in Eligibility back on the agenda:
@Nepia probably include Masoe in that too?
Would be interesting to see how a no grandparent rule might adversely affect Samoa/Tonga.
I think he went to Wanganui Collegiate?
Yep, the no granparent rule would hammer the islands in a generation.
Wanganui City College.
The poor school in, 3rd ranked rugby school in the city, a declining provincial city.I've seen him included as a scholarship migrant in various internet discussions . But personally I doubt it, based purely on the school, no evidence either way.
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Spent years in Japan, and as everyone knows they use the 3 year residency thing very freely indeed. Interesting thing though is the likes of Michael Leitch, Luke Thompson and Hendrix Tui have all naturalised anyway. Dual citizenship is not recognised as such but my experiences there suggest that it's very much a case of don't ask, don't tell. Kids born in an international marriage can have both passports to age 21 at which time they are supposed to decide, but in practice many don't. I would imagine someone like Kotaro Matsushima, the outside back, would still hold both South African and Japanese
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The stricter residency rules are expected to pass
Agustin Pichot, the World Rugby vice-chairman, made it clear on his appointment last year that he felt three years was too short amid concerns that it was undermining the fabric of the international game and fuelling the player drain from the Pacific Islands. The RFU openly declared its support for the position in January and several international sources have indicated that Pichot will now get enough backing to get the amendment over the line. "There is a very good chance of it being adopted," said RFU chief executive Ian Ritchie. There could yet be a period of grace for those players already serving a qualification period for their adopted country but it is almost certain that if the extension is voted in, it could be in place for the start of next season. -
With 5 years apparently a done deal, the real interest for me will be the date it is implemented from.
Eg for this about to move. Will James Lowe be foreign eligible in 3 years or 5 years.
From memory. The last big change, stopping country swapping, was in 1999 with the effective date being Jan 1 2000.
I reckon it will be similar. Jan 1 2018.
