Six Nations 2017
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I rewatched the crusaders game after this to check how often offside is awarded when there is no ruck. Glenn Jackson was constantly marshalling an offside line for the defense even though it was tackle only.
I think it's too difficult for a ref to make the ruck no ruck call and check offside at the same time so I expect a change will be coming.
@mooshld That's because Jackson is incompetent. Don't call ruck = players can be everywhere. Call ruck and they have to be on-side. Not too difficult surely?
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@mooshld That's because Jackson is incompetent. Don't call ruck = players can be everywhere. Call ruck and they have to be on-side. Not too difficult surely?
@antipodean he wasn't calling anything yet saying take a step or pointing out the midfield being in front of the tackle. I suspect this happens a lot and for most refs the default breakdown is a ruck and they have therefore enforced an offside line erroneously.
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The likes of Matt Dawson calling for a law change miss the point completely. The real story here is how sloooow England were to adapt. When they did adapt (intermittently, it has to be noted - wtf? Did they just keep forgetting what the appropriate countermeasures were?) it was oneway traffic. At the risk of sounding like Abe Simpson, this reminds me of a time.... way back in the early 90s I played in the Northampton Business Sevens for my then employer. We were a team of predominantly fatties from various Beds and Northants junior clubs, and definitely not going to terrify anyone by spreading the ball wide. In one of our games we found ourselves playing against a bunch of young tyros from Saints, contemporaries and mates of Dawson. Having been fairly comprehensively outplayed in the first half, at halftime we decided to play to our strengths and scored twice thereafter from a long series of pick and drives up the centre. I'm pretty sure someone in the crowd suggested that our tactics were against the spirit of sevens, but I responded with my characteristic wit ("Fuck off", I quipped merrily).
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I rewatched the crusaders game after this to check how often offside is awarded when there is no ruck. Glenn Jackson was constantly marshalling an offside line for the defense even though it was tackle only.
I think it's too difficult for a ref to make the ruck no ruck call and check offside at the same time so I expect a change will be coming.
@mooshld said in Six Nations 2017:
I rewatched the crusaders game after this to check how often offside is awarded when there is no ruck. Glenn Jackson was constantly marshalling an offside line for the defense even though it was tackle only.
I think it's too difficult for a ref to make the ruck no ruck call and check offside at the same time so I expect a change will be coming.
It's not too difficult. That's exactly what Poite was doing and I don't think I saw him get the call wrong at all.
What you do need to do though is prepare the ref for the tactic (which Italy did) or he will assume every tackle draws an offside line (like Jackson) so he can get on with the rest of his job.
Preparing the ref also means that the ARs in in on it as well and won't be screming offside into their mikes when it isn't (not that they ever police the offside line anyway) -
What amused me also was when one of my real offside bugbears, 'the pillar', was called against England in that no try ruling as obstruction.
Fine for Eddie to complain that what Italy did 'wasn't rugby', but where does he draw the line? He is happy to coach for players to stand unbound in front of the hindmost foot at a breakdown (like every other coach) and that, unlike Italy's ploy, is actually illegal but ignored by most refs.
Italy only got away with the tactic for so long because the England on field leadership was poor and unable to react. Also raises a question about EJ as well as it was pretty obvious that he didn't pass the message on what to do until half time when he could have done so earlier through a water carrier.
Eddie was mainly pissed off because he took this game as a tailormade training run for him to try combinations and moves. Italy caught him out, disrupted what he was trying to do in his grand plan and made his onfield leaders look stupid all in one go. -
The online huffing and puffing from various specimens of "Twickenham man" that they had been denied the free-flowing rugby spectacle that they had shown up to watch is a bit rich also. Damn, I wish that I could remember how to link in an "Are you not entertained?" meme. Anyone of that ilk who says that they went to Twickenham yesterday expecting anything other than a record score slaughter is fibbing. Fair play to Italy for not meekly following that script. It wasn't pretty, but I for one actually found it entertaining. Plus it was a toe up the backside in advance of what I expect to be a very interesting Calcutta Cup match in a fortnight's time.
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The likes of Matt Dawson calling for a law change miss the point completely. The real story here is how sloooow England were to adapt. When they did adapt (intermittently, it has to be noted - wtf? Did they just keep forgetting what the appropriate countermeasures were?) it was oneway traffic. At the risk of sounding like Abe Simpson, this reminds me of a time.... way back in the early 90s I played in the Northampton Business Sevens for my then employer. We were a team of predominantly fatties from various Beds and Northants junior clubs, and definitely not going to terrify anyone by spreading the ball wide. In one of our games we found ourselves playing against a bunch of young tyros from Saints, contemporaries and mates of Dawson. Having been fairly comprehensively outplayed in the first half, at halftime we decided to play to our strengths and scored twice thereafter from a long series of pick and drives up the centre. I'm pretty sure someone in the crowd suggested that our tactics were against the spirit of sevens, but I responded with my characteristic wit ("Fuck off", I quipped merrily).
@Disgusted-of-TW said in Six Nations 2017:
The likes of Matt Dawson calling for a law change miss the point completely. The real story here is how sloooow England were to adapt. When they did adapt (intermittently, it has to be noted - wtf? Did they just keep forgetting what the appropriate countermeasures were?) it was oneway traffic. At the risk of sounding like Abe Simpson, this reminds me of a time.... way back in the early 90s I played in the Northampton Business Sevens for my then employer. We were a team of predominantly fatties from various Beds and Northants junior clubs, and definitely not going to terrify anyone by spreading the ball wide. In one of our games we found ourselves playing against a bunch of young tyros from Saints, contemporaries and mates of Dawson. Having been fairly comprehensively outplayed in the first half, at halftime we decided to play to our strengths and scored twice thereafter from a long series of pick and drives up the centre. I'm pretty sure someone in the crowd suggested that our tactics were against the spirit of sevens, but I responded with my characteristic wit ("Fuck off", I quipped merrily).
Reminds of the time ...
... we scored from a 50m rolling maul on our piss trip to the Honolulu Sevens ... -
@booboo said in Six Nations 2017:
Re the offside line at the tackle didn't we try that with the ELVs? Got kiboshed IIRC
No, can't recall that.
Chiefs have been the team to try it out the most but to start with it failed on not making the ref aware. Then they tried the tactic of yelling out 'no ruck' and sending players up, that kind worked a little at times.
The big difference was that when the Chiefs did it they usually just sent one player up to stand 1 metre away from the halfback and cut off one side, then send another (usually Messam IIRC) up to make a tackle on the other side, therefore pinning the opposition well behind the gainline and behind their forward pack.
what Italy did was to send a swarm up to encircle the halfback and give him fuck all options. It was designed purely to disrupt. -
@Disgusted-of-TW said in Six Nations 2017:
The likes of Matt Dawson calling for a law change miss the point completely. The real story here is how sloooow England were to adapt. When they did adapt (intermittently, it has to be noted - wtf? Did they just keep forgetting what the appropriate countermeasures were?) it was oneway traffic. At the risk of sounding like Abe Simpson, this reminds me of a time.... way back in the early 90s I played in the Northampton Business Sevens for my then employer. We were a team of predominantly fatties from various Beds and Northants junior clubs, and definitely not going to terrify anyone by spreading the ball wide. In one of our games we found ourselves playing against a bunch of young tyros from Saints, contemporaries and mates of Dawson. Having been fairly comprehensively outplayed in the first half, at halftime we decided to play to our strengths and scored twice thereafter from a long series of pick and drives up the centre. I'm pretty sure someone in the crowd suggested that our tactics were against the spirit of sevens, but I responded with my characteristic wit ("Fuck off", I quipped merrily).
Reminds of the time ...
... we scored from a 50m rolling maul on our piss trip to the Honolulu Sevens ...@booboo said in Six Nations 2017:
@Disgusted-of-TW said in Six Nations 2017:
The likes of Matt Dawson calling for a law change miss the point completely. The real story here is how sloooow England were to adapt. When they did adapt (intermittently, it has to be noted - wtf? Did they just keep forgetting what the appropriate countermeasures were?) it was oneway traffic. At the risk of sounding like Abe Simpson, this reminds me of a time.... way back in the early 90s I played in the Northampton Business Sevens for my then employer. We were a team of predominantly fatties from various Beds and Northants junior clubs, and definitely not going to terrify anyone by spreading the ball wide. In one of our games we found ourselves playing against a bunch of young tyros from Saints, contemporaries and mates of Dawson. Having been fairly comprehensively outplayed in the first half, at halftime we decided to play to our strengths and scored twice thereafter from a long series of pick and drives up the centre. I'm pretty sure someone in the crowd suggested that our tactics were against the spirit of sevens, but I responded with my characteristic wit ("Fuck off", I quipped merrily).
Reminds of the time ...
... we scored from a 50m rolling maul on our piss trip to the Honolulu Sevens ...Where to travel for a tournament, given the choice of those two exotic venues, eh? Honolulu or Northampton? Blimey, that's a headscratcher...
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The42's 6N team of the week (the link has some vids to back up decisions)
http://www.the42.ie/6-nations-team-of-week-round-3-3260895-Feb2017/
- Andrea Lovotti
- Rory Best
- Tadhg Furlong
- Joe Launchbury
- Jonny Gray
- CJ Stander
- Simone Favaro
- Sergio Parisse
- Conor Murray
- Jonathan Sexton
- Tim Visser
- Robbie Henshaw
- Michele Campagnaro
- Tommy Seymour
- Stuart Hogg
Ireland 6
Scotland 4
England 1
Italy 4
France 0
Wales 0 -
The42's 6N team of the week (the link has some vids to back up decisions)
http://www.the42.ie/6-nations-team-of-week-round-3-3260895-Feb2017/
- Andrea Lovotti
- Rory Best
- Tadhg Furlong
- Joe Launchbury
- Jonny Gray
- CJ Stander
- Simone Favaro
- Sergio Parisse
- Conor Murray
- Jonathan Sexton
- Tim Visser
- Robbie Henshaw
- Michele Campagnaro
- Tommy Seymour
- Stuart Hogg
Ireland 6
Scotland 4
England 1
Italy 4
France 0
Wales 0@Crucial a sobering list for England, I certainly wouldn't argue for more Englishmen (with possible exception of Daly). The back row should have more Scots, at least Hamish Watson.
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@Disgusted-of-TW said in Six Nations 2017:
The likes of Matt Dawson calling for a law change miss the point completely. The real story here is how sloooow England were to adapt. When they did adapt (intermittently, it has to be noted - wtf? Did they just keep forgetting what the appropriate countermeasures were?) it was oneway traffic. At the risk of sounding like Abe Simpson, this reminds me of a time.... way back in the early 90s I played in the Northampton Business Sevens for my then employer. We were a team of predominantly fatties from various Beds and Northants junior clubs, and definitely not going to terrify anyone by spreading the ball wide. In one of our games we found ourselves playing against a bunch of young tyros from Saints, contemporaries and mates of Dawson. Having been fairly comprehensively outplayed in the first half, at halftime we decided to play to our strengths and scored twice thereafter from a long series of pick and drives up the centre. I'm pretty sure someone in the crowd suggested that our tactics were against the spirit of sevens, but I responded with my characteristic wit ("Fuck off", I quipped merrily).
Reminds of the time ...
... we scored from a 50m rolling maul on our piss trip to the Honolulu Sevens ...@booboo said in Six Nations 2017:
@Disgusted-of-TW said in Six Nations 2017:
The likes of Matt Dawson calling for a law change miss the point completely. The real story here is how sloooow England were to adapt. When they did adapt (intermittently, it has to be noted - wtf? Did they just keep forgetting what the appropriate countermeasures were?) it was oneway traffic. At the risk of sounding like Abe Simpson, this reminds me of a time.... way back in the early 90s I played in the Northampton Business Sevens for my then employer. We were a team of predominantly fatties from various Beds and Northants junior clubs, and definitely not going to terrify anyone by spreading the ball wide. In one of our games we found ourselves playing against a bunch of young tyros from Saints, contemporaries and mates of Dawson. Having been fairly comprehensively outplayed in the first half, at halftime we decided to play to our strengths and scored twice thereafter from a long series of pick and drives up the centre. I'm pretty sure someone in the crowd suggested that our tactics were against the spirit of sevens, but I responded with my characteristic wit ("Fuck off", I quipped merrily).
Reminds of the time ...
... we scored from a 50m rolling maul on our piss trip to the Honolulu Sevens ...Reminds me of the time we once got to the final of a 10s tournament despite having a team of mostly slow loose forwards. Final was played in torrential rain against a team of fleet-footed speedsters who cut us to ribbons in the first few minutes. We fluked a try and kicked a long range penalty, then spent the entire second half scrummaging in a bog to wind down the clock. Won 8-7, brilliantly foreshadowing the 2011 RWC final that occurred year later.
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@booboo said in Six Nations 2017:
@Disgusted-of-TW said in Six Nations 2017:
The likes of Matt Dawson calling for a law change miss the point completely. The real story here is how sloooow England were to adapt. When they did adapt (intermittently, it has to be noted - wtf? Did they just keep forgetting what the appropriate countermeasures were?) it was oneway traffic. At the risk of sounding like Abe Simpson, this reminds me of a time.... way back in the early 90s I played in the Northampton Business Sevens for my then employer. We were a team of predominantly fatties from various Beds and Northants junior clubs, and definitely not going to terrify anyone by spreading the ball wide. In one of our games we found ourselves playing against a bunch of young tyros from Saints, contemporaries and mates of Dawson. Having been fairly comprehensively outplayed in the first half, at halftime we decided to play to our strengths and scored twice thereafter from a long series of pick and drives up the centre. I'm pretty sure someone in the crowd suggested that our tactics were against the spirit of sevens, but I responded with my characteristic wit ("Fuck off", I quipped merrily).
Reminds of the time ...
... we scored from a 50m rolling maul on our piss trip to the Honolulu Sevens ...Reminds me of the time we once got to the final of a 10s tournament despite having a team of mostly slow loose forwards. Final was played in torrential rain against a team of fleet-footed speedsters who cut us to ribbons in the first few minutes. We fluked a try and kicked a long range penalty, then spent the entire second half scrummaging in a bog to wind down the clock. Won 8-7, brilliantly foreshadowing the 2011 RWC final that occurred year later.
@TeWaio That definitely sounds like one for the connoisseur. I salute you!
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Well that was certainly a more interesting game than I thought it would be. Fair play to Italy for trying something different and it certainly worked for most of the game. Pretty disappointing to see how slow England were to react, when they should really have started trucking it up the middle as soon as it became clear what was going on. Eddie should just smile and turn the other cheek after the game and any calls for changes to the law are a touch on the hysterical side. Despite the scoreline, England definitely failed the thinking under pressure test in that first half especially.
That said I think Italy were pretty lucky to get away with a ref approaching it very sympathetically. There had obviously been discussions with Poite before the game at their intentions (which is fair enough), but I think he got a little caught up in the fun. Italy used the tactic at pretty much every tackle that wasn't on their line and only got pinged once (when the player shadowing the 9 attempted to charge a box kick) from memory. There were several occasions where an Italian seemed to engage briefly creating a ruck, before backing off as players flooded round. A few penalties probably would have kept them a little more honest and watching the Chiefs using the tactic (more sporadically) a few seasons ago, I seem to remember refs being a lot stricter on potential infringements.
All good fun though
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@booboo said in Six Nations 2017:
Re the offside line at the tackle didn't we try that with the ELVs? Got kiboshed IIRC
Apologies, I misunderstood your post earlier. My memory has been prodded and you are correct.
What the Twickenham Old Farts are now considering asking WR to do is one of the ELVs they so vehemently opposed.
That particular one didn't work though. It basically meant that once a player made a break and was, say tackled by the last defensive player, he could throw the ball loosely back and no one but his teammates could take possession.
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@booboo said in Six Nations 2017:
Re the offside line at the tackle didn't we try that with the ELVs? Got kiboshed IIRC
Apologies, I misunderstood your post earlier. My memory has been prodded and you are correct.
What the Twickenham Old Farts are now considering asking WR to do is one of the ELVs they so vehemently opposed.
That particular one didn't work though. It basically meant that once a player made a break and was, say tackled by the last defensive player, he could throw the ball loosely back and no one but his teammates could take possession.
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@booboo said in Six Nations 2017:
Re the offside line at the tackle didn't we try that with the ELVs? Got kiboshed IIRC
Apologies, I misunderstood your post earlier. My memory has been prodded and you are correct.
What the Twickenham Old Farts are now considering asking WR to do is one of the ELVs they so vehemently opposed.
That particular one didn't work though. It basically meant that once a player made a break and was, say tackled by the last defensive player, he could throw the ball loosely back and no one but his teammates could take possession.
@Crucial said in Six Nations 2017:
That particular one didn't work though. It basically meant that once a player made a break and was, say tackled by the last defensive player, he could throw the ball loosely back and no one but his teammates could take possession.
Yup, that was the first thing I thought of when people started talking about rule changes. Here is a good example of the unintended consequences:
http://www.rugbydump.com/2008/03/414/the-offside-line-at-the-tackle-under-the-elvs
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@Crucial said in Six Nations 2017:
That particular one didn't work though. It basically meant that once a player made a break and was, say tackled by the last defensive player, he could throw the ball loosely back and no one but his teammates could take possession.
Yup, that was the first thing I thought of when people started talking about rule changes. Here is a good example of the unintended consequences:
http://www.rugbydump.com/2008/03/414/the-offside-line-at-the-tackle-under-the-elvs
@Duluth Excellent example of unintended consequences. For all Eddie Jones' reputation as a thinker of the game, that one change would ruin rugby.
And that's what he was calling for, because his players were too thick to pick and go and offload to beat the Italians.
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Has been an interesting tournament so far. England have Scotland and Ireland to finish and neither will be easy games. The Dublin game could well be the ambush 2011 was when Sexton and Co put a grand slam seeking English side to the sword, winning emphatically.
