Blues v BI Lions
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@Chris-B. said in Blues v BI Lions:
@pukunui said in Blues v BI Lions:
Didn't think Perofeta was too bad. Great pass for the first try. As West showed it isn't that easy to throw that sort of ball. He went pretty well for a young guy making his starting debut against the Lions with shitty service from Pulu who was fucking slow to clear the ball as usual..
I must have missed the good stuff Collins did. He looked his usual slow, unable to beat a tackle or take a gap self.
Nanai would have had a field day with that shitty lions defence. What did Collins actually do other than not fuck up?A error free game from Collins - that's surely the very first thing you want from your fullback?
Caught everything that was kicked to him, including an excellent mark under intense pressure during the downpour (which he converted into a free kick) and the contested take that led to West's try.
Kick returns were all well judged - including that very nicely judged one that found touch 40 metres upfield that you've dismissed as "lucky".
Nice save when your man Perofeta dropped the ball on his own line.
At least one nice running break returning the ball.
Was he spectacular? Not particularly - just very solid in everything he did. So my assessment - given how much criticism he's copped on here - was that he was "pretty good". I think that's accurate. Your remarks about him for this game seem pretty unfair.
Everything you have described there is just the baseline of what you expect from a professional fullback though. Taking a few high balls is not something i would describe as "excellent" or "great" as others have suggested. You seem to agree. I haven't suggested he was shit in THIS game. Just not "great"
Meanwhile the guy who he played ahead of, and has for most of the year, has been ripping defences apart all year and doing freakish shit while doing everything good Collins has. Forgive me if i expect a bit more than "error free" from a fullback.
His mark was as much excellent as his kick was lucky so you can split the difference there.
Not sure what you mean by "your man" perofeta. Ive seen him play about 60 mins of rugby if that.
Funnily enough has already reached higher heights than Collins. He did that with a single pass.@pukunui was listening to the radio commentators Nigel Yalden and former All Black Ant Strahan with the wrap up after the Blues v Lions game.
SBW and Luatua were given the most praise for their performances,followed by Micheal Collins,in and around doing the simple basics well against an international side on a night where small margins either win or lose a game.The impressive catch leading up to the Luatua offload was huge,it finally gave the Blues possession they required to have one good crack,I also thought his kick return and option taking was spot on.
These little moments in what was a one off performance are crucial,you only have to think back to Lima Sopaga steering a return kick directly over the touchline against the saders last Saturday,massive turning point,Whitelock took control,and that was that.,so based on what I saw and speaking to a couple former all blacks that I run into on my travels,his decion making was spot on
I asked about Melani Nanai,they both said he was an exceptional talent,especially the ability to beat a player with footwork and pace,but that's also his weakness,from the back first instinct is to run at the defence moving up,reason why,no kicking game,and does not look to where his support is.can think of the game against the chiefs in Hamilton last year,The Blues lead for a good part of that match,and then Cruden worked him out,they sent long kicks down into the red zone,simply because he had no kicking game..
To be honest,I personally don't think it was a great blues performance,you could argue they played better code against some the NZ super sides and still lost,fortunately there were several players that stood up,and they took their chances when they arose.
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@pukunui was listening to the radio commentators Nigel Yalden and former All Black Ant Strahan with the wrap up after the Blues v Lions game.
SBW and Luatua were given the most praise for their performances,followed by Micheal Collins,in and around doing the simple basics well against an international side on a night where small margins either win or lose a game.The impressive catch leading up to the Luatua offload was huge,it finally gave the Blues possession they required to have one good crack,I also thought his kick return and option taking was spot on.
These little moments in what was a one off performance are crucial,you only have to think back to Lima Sopaga steering a return kick directly over the touchline against the saders last Saturday,massive turning point,Whitelock took control,and that was that.,so based on what I saw and speaking to a couple former all blacks that I run into on my travels,his decion making was spot on
I asked about Melani Nanai,they both said he was an exceptional talent,especially the ability to beat a player with footwork and pace,but that's also his weakness,from the back first instinct is to run at the defence moving up,reason why,no kicking game,and does not look to where his support is.can think of the game against the chiefs in Hamilton last year,The Blues lead for a good part of that match,and then Cruden worked him out,they sent long kicks down into the red zone,simply because he had no kicking game..
To be honest,I personally don't think it was a great blues performance,you could argue they played better code against some the NZ super sides and still lost,fortunately there were several players that stood up,and they took their chances when they arose.
@Steven-Harris said in Blues v BI Lions:
@pukunui
I asked about Melani Nanai,they both said he was an exceptional talent,especially the ability to beat a player with footwork and pace,but that's also his weakness,from the back first instinct is to run at the defence moving up,reason why,no kicking game,and does not look to where his support is.can think of the game against the chiefs in Hamilton last year,The Blues lead for a good part of that match,and then Cruden worked him out,they sent long kicks down into the red zone,simply because he had no kicking game..Interesting insights, thanks for that.
Some comments though. Firstly, Nanai was called into that Chiefs game late (as starting fullback Visinia pulled out before kickoff with an injury). It's a little harsh to cherry pick that game, especially when Nanai scored an individual 50 metre try that helped put the Blues in the lead in the first place.
Secondly, if Collins played to the level he played against the Lions in the NZ derbies, the Blues would have won one or two of those derbies and could very well have snuck into the playoffs. He didn't. His error rate in the derbies was very high, dropping high balls, dropping the ball, kicks out on the full etc. This combined with next to zero attacking spark puts the Blues on the backfoot. Nanai is clearly a much stronger attacker with the ability to create something out of nothing but also a much stronger tackler (in terms of speed to cover ground and his actual tackling).
I think an argument can be made the slower pace that the Lions played at suited Collins. He probably suits the northern hemisphere style more. The fast paced razzle dazzle nz derbies expose his weaknesses.
Hopefully Nanai keeps working away on his areas of improvement.
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@pukunui was listening to the radio commentators Nigel Yalden and former All Black Ant Strahan with the wrap up after the Blues v Lions game.
SBW and Luatua were given the most praise for their performances,followed by Micheal Collins,in and around doing the simple basics well against an international side on a night where small margins either win or lose a game.The impressive catch leading up to the Luatua offload was huge,it finally gave the Blues possession they required to have one good crack,I also thought his kick return and option taking was spot on.
These little moments in what was a one off performance are crucial,you only have to think back to Lima Sopaga steering a return kick directly over the touchline against the saders last Saturday,massive turning point,Whitelock took control,and that was that.,so based on what I saw and speaking to a couple former all blacks that I run into on my travels,his decion making was spot on
I asked about Melani Nanai,they both said he was an exceptional talent,especially the ability to beat a player with footwork and pace,but that's also his weakness,from the back first instinct is to run at the defence moving up,reason why,no kicking game,and does not look to where his support is.can think of the game against the chiefs in Hamilton last year,The Blues lead for a good part of that match,and then Cruden worked him out,they sent long kicks down into the red zone,simply because he had no kicking game..
To be honest,I personally don't think it was a great blues performance,you could argue they played better code against some the NZ super sides and still lost,fortunately there were several players that stood up,and they took their chances when they arose.
@Steven-Harris Was that you on the radio talking about the Maori yesterday, Steven?
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I thought Trainor was good against the Reds too. There's going to be quite a bit of competition for wing and fullback at the Blues next year.
Fullback:
Collins
PerofetaWing/Fullback:
Nanai
Trainor
DuffieWing:
Ioane
Moala
Vaega -
@Tim hopefully makes up for the fact that without CHarlie, our scrum will be going backwards at a rate of knots.
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shame as I thought Waa was making progress in the Blues dev side as a TH, but seems to have fallen off a cliff, especially as he is looking in great shape compared to when he actually made the Dev side.
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@Steven-Harris said in Blues v BI Lions:
@pukunui
I asked about Melani Nanai,they both said he was an exceptional talent,especially the ability to beat a player with footwork and pace,but that's also his weakness,from the back first instinct is to run at the defence moving up,reason why,no kicking game,and does not look to where his support is.can think of the game against the chiefs in Hamilton last year,The Blues lead for a good part of that match,and then Cruden worked him out,they sent long kicks down into the red zone,simply because he had no kicking game..Interesting insights, thanks for that.
Some comments though. Firstly, Nanai was called into that Chiefs game late (as starting fullback Visinia pulled out before kickoff with an injury). It's a little harsh to cherry pick that game, especially when Nanai scored an individual 50 metre try that helped put the Blues in the lead in the first place.
Secondly, if Collins played to the level he played against the Lions in the NZ derbies, the Blues would have won one or two of those derbies and could very well have snuck into the playoffs. He didn't. His error rate in the derbies was very high, dropping high balls, dropping the ball, kicks out on the full etc. This combined with next to zero attacking spark puts the Blues on the backfoot. Nanai is clearly a much stronger attacker with the ability to create something out of nothing but also a much stronger tackler (in terms of speed to cover ground and his actual tackling).
I think an argument can be made the slower pace that the Lions played at suited Collins. He probably suits the northern hemisphere style more. The fast paced razzle dazzle nz derbies expose his weaknesses.
Hopefully Nanai keeps working away on his areas of improvement.
@KiwiMurph just want to make it clear,I think Nanai is an exceptional talent,but for me personally,prefer him as a winger.
The example of of last year year may seem harsh,given that he did score an exceptional try in that game,but I have seen other examples,when he's cornered,the let's run out of trouble option seems to be the first instinct.Like others,there is a concern,that because he's not getting game time,moving to another franchise might be a viable option.
If that's what the coaching staff are seeing,I guess we only run with what they are doing..
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@jegga said in Blues v BI Lions:
Just rewatching the game, a pommy mate of mine was talking up Itoje before the tour. Is Itoje known for being a bit of an excitable dickhead or is he just pumped to be part of this tour?
Yeah, he's known for the clapping and whooping.
He is a very good player with heaps of potential given his age (21-22) but has basically had it all his own way so far in his career. Under-20 World Cup winner, part of dominant Saracens and England teams in Europe. This tour is likely to be the making or breaking of him, based on how he responds to adversity.
@SimonAdd_2 said in Blues v BI Lions:
@jegga said in Blues v BI Lions:
Just rewatching the game, a pommy mate of mine was talking up Itoje before the tour. Is Itoje known for being a bit of an excitable dickhead or is he just pumped to be part of this tour?
Yeah, he's known for the clapping and whooping.
He is a very good player with heaps of potential given his age (21-22) but has basically had it all his own way so far in his career. Under-20 World Cup winner, part of dominant Saracens and England teams in Europe. This tour is likely to be the making or breaking of him, based on how he responds to adversity.
I'm interested to see how he goes , I cant remember a young NH forward being talked up the way this kid has ( from our media as well )
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On Itoe and the yelling, is it penalizable under 10.4 (m)? @Damo other refs?
10.4
(m) Acts contrary to good sportsmanship. A player must not do anything that is against the spirit of good sportsmanship in the playing enclosure.Sanction: Penalty kick
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On Itoe and the yelling, is it penalizable under 10.4 (m)? @Damo other refs?
10.4
(m) Acts contrary to good sportsmanship. A player must not do anything that is against the spirit of good sportsmanship in the playing enclosure.Sanction: Penalty kick
@gt12 said in Blues v BI Lions:
On Itoe and the yelling, is it penalizable under 10.4 (m)? @Damo other refs?
10.4
(m) Acts contrary to good sportsmanship. A player must not do anything that is against the spirit of good sportsmanship in the playing enclosure.Sanction: Penalty kick
And on every opposition player who pats the head of an opponent after they've given away a penalty?
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@Catogrande and every halfback that claps vigorously and yells half a metre from the opposition when a scrum penalty is given.....
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@Catogrande and every halfback that claps vigorously and yells half a metre from the opposition when a scrum penalty is given.....
@ACT-Crusader Absolutely and it's also time we went back to a simple hand-shake after scoring a try.
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Lookout the fun police are here.
I don't mind these interactions, adds a bit of colour to the game.
My only couple of issues with Itoje was that a) he celebrated too early and now looks like a fool and b) he was playing for the star international team against a local franchise, I wouldn't like to see an AB do that in a mid-week game for example but in a big test I can see how the emotions would get the best of you.
To quote the NFL's Raiders - just win baby.
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Lookout the fun police are here.
I don't mind these interactions, adds a bit of colour to the game.
My only couple of issues with Itoje was that a) he celebrated too early and now looks like a fool and b) he was playing for the star international team against a local franchise, I wouldn't like to see an AB do that in a mid-week game for example but in a big test I can see how the emotions would get the best of you.
To quote the NFL's Raiders - just win baby.
@KiwiMurph said in Blues v BI Lions:
Lookout the fun police are here.
I don't mind these interactions, adds a bit of colour to the game.
My only couple of issues with Itoje was that a) he celebrated too early and now looks like a fool and b) he was playing for the star international team against a local franchise, I wouldn't like to see an AB do that in a mid-week game for example but in a big test I can see how the emotions would get the best of you.
To quote the NFL's Raiders - just win baby.
I'd share a top quality meme about the fun police but I'd just end up getting banned.
Again.
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On Itoe and the yelling, is it penalizable under 10.4 (m)? @Damo other refs?
10.4
(m) Acts contrary to good sportsmanship. A player must not do anything that is against the spirit of good sportsmanship in the playing enclosure.Sanction: Penalty kick
@gt12 said in Blues v BI Lions:
On Itoe and the yelling, is it penalizable under 10.4 (m)? @Damo other refs?
10.4
(m) Acts contrary to good sportsmanship. A player must not do anything that is against the spirit of good sportsmanship in the playing enclosure.Sanction: Penalty kick
Possibly, but a ref would be advised to tell the players he would do that prior to the game, otherwise it would be a bit too interventionist for my liking. If WR took a stand and issued a directive it would be different.
I'm not a fan of the behaviour, but it's not up to referees to impose their preferences on the players.
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On Itoe and the yelling, is it penalizable under 10.4 (m)? @Damo other refs?
10.4
(m) Acts contrary to good sportsmanship. A player must not do anything that is against the spirit of good sportsmanship in the playing enclosure.Sanction: Penalty kick
@gt12 said in Blues v BI Lions:
On Itoe and the yelling, is it penalizable under 10.4 (m)? @Damo other refs?
10.4
(m) Acts contrary to good sportsmanship. A player must not do anything that is against the spirit of good sportsmanship in the playing enclosure.Sanction: Penalty kick
In extreme cases at school level I have seen this done. I was running touch in a game where one hooker would be screaming in the face of the throwing hooker every throw trying to put him off. I suggested that he stop doing it and when he didn't I pointed it out to the ref and left it in his hands. He watched it once and warned him then penalised him next time.
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@KiwiMurph said in Blues v BI Lions:
Lookout the fun police are here.
I don't mind these interactions, adds a bit of colour to the game.
My only couple of issues with Itoje was that a) he celebrated too early and now looks like a fool and b) he was playing for the star international team against a local franchise, I wouldn't like to see an AB do that in a mid-week game for example but in a big test I can see how the emotions would get the best of you.
To quote the NFL's Raiders - just win baby.
I'd share a top quality meme about the fun police but I'd just end up getting banned.
Again.
@MN5 said in Blues v BI Lions:
@KiwiMurph said in Blues v BI Lions:
Lookout the fun police are here.
I don't mind these interactions, adds a bit of colour to the game.
My only couple of issues with Itoje was that a) he celebrated too early and now looks like a fool and b) he was playing for the star international team against a local franchise, I wouldn't like to see an AB do that in a mid-week game for example but in a big test I can see how the emotions would get the best of you.
To quote the NFL's Raiders - just win baby.
I'd share a top quality meme about the fun police but I'd just end up getting banned.
Again.
Go on. You know you want to.
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@MN5 said in Blues v BI Lions:
@KiwiMurph said in Blues v BI Lions:
Lookout the fun police are here.
I don't mind these interactions, adds a bit of colour to the game.
My only couple of issues with Itoje was that a) he celebrated too early and now looks like a fool and b) he was playing for the star international team against a local franchise, I wouldn't like to see an AB do that in a mid-week game for example but in a big test I can see how the emotions would get the best of you.
To quote the NFL's Raiders - just win baby.
I'd share a top quality meme about the fun police but I'd just end up getting banned.
Again.
Go on. You know you want to.
@Catogrande said in Blues v BI Lions:
@MN5 said in Blues v BI Lions:
@KiwiMurph said in Blues v BI Lions:
Lookout the fun police are here.
I don't mind these interactions, adds a bit of colour to the game.
My only couple of issues with Itoje was that a) he celebrated too early and now looks like a fool and b) he was playing for the star international team against a local franchise, I wouldn't like to see an AB do that in a mid-week game for example but in a big test I can see how the emotions would get the best of you.
To quote the NFL's Raiders - just win baby.
I'd share a top quality meme about the fun police but I'd just end up getting banned.
Again.
Go on. You know you want to.
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@gt12 said in Blues v BI Lions:
On Itoe and the yelling, is it penalizable under 10.4 (m)? @Damo other refs?
10.4
(m) Acts contrary to good sportsmanship. A player must not do anything that is against the spirit of good sportsmanship in the playing enclosure.Sanction: Penalty kick
In extreme cases at school level I have seen this done. I was running touch in a game where one hooker would be screaming in the face of the throwing hooker every throw trying to put him off. I suggested that he stop doing it and when he didn't I pointed it out to the ref and left it in his hands. He watched it once and warned him then penalised him next time.
@Crucial That's actually why I brought it up. I'm not commenting on the celebrating - I'm commenting on the yelling during the line out. I wondered if I'd be Ok with that at schoolboy level, and I'm sure I wouldn't be.
@Damo Good call. I guess if it were seen to be a problem, then a directive could be issued.
@therestofyoufuckers, I'm fun. I'm all about the fun. Ask my chess group.
