All Blacks v BI Lions Test #2
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Syd Millar?
@MiketheSnow McBride. Why I don't suss that one straight away I don't know. Mike Gibson another.
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@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #2:
@pakman sorry what? To start with in what world does Itoje not make that side? He was the best lock on the field. Read also got smashed backwards all night - Toby F made ground.
Itoje was part of an eight man pack which did not subdue the AB seven. He was pinged offside at least twice and could or should have been more, penalties which threatened to sink Lions. Pulled off a good maul sack and made a couple of big tackles but the collective result suggests the less showy aspects were nothing special. I simply wouldn't have swapped either of the two AB locks for him. TF was good and more debatable, but again operating in a pack one short swings it to Read for me.
@pakman said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #2:
Itoje was part of an eight man pack which did not subdue the AB seven. He was pinged offside at least twice and could or should have been more, penalties which threatened to sink Lions. Pulled off a good maul sack and made a couple of big tackles but the collective result suggests the less showy aspects were nothing special. I simply wouldn't have swapped either of the two AB locks for him.
Yep, I agree with you.
The balance of pro's/cons is key.
If the pro's are make a big tackle and a big break that are eye-catching but make no contribution to the scoreboard (or at least the momentum of a match)
but the cons are 2 dumb penalties that concede 6 points or make an attack break down, then I'd settle for a non-flashy player who does the grunt work (like Whitelock).
Rugby is a team game - all the bits and pieces working together is what wins games and tournaments.Itoje will presumably learn not to concede so often.
Sean O'Brien used to infuriate me by the way he could not resist some dumb challenges at the tackle. However, he has improved over the years to be one of the few players in the squad that many Kiwis seemed to rate before the Lions arrived. -
Tony O'Reilly (1955, 1959)
Rhys Williams (1955, 1959)
Jerry Guscott (1989, 1993, 1997)
Ieuan Evans (1989, 1993, 1997)
Martin Johnson (1993, 1997, 2001)
Jason Leonard (1993, 1997, 2001)
Alun Wyn Jones (2009, 2013, 2017)@Billy-Tell Good work. I now see that McBride didn't play in the tests V Australia in 66. Forgot Leonard and Evans (in SA 1997).
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@pakman said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #2:
Itoje was part of an eight man pack which did not subdue the AB seven. He was pinged offside at least twice and could or should have been more, penalties which threatened to sink Lions. Pulled off a good maul sack and made a couple of big tackles but the collective result suggests the less showy aspects were nothing special. I simply wouldn't have swapped either of the two AB locks for him.
Yep, I agree with you.
The balance of pro's/cons is key.
If the pro's are make a big tackle and a big break that are eye-catching but make no contribution to the scoreboard (or at least the momentum of a match)
but the cons are 2 dumb penalties that concede 6 points or make an attack break down, then I'd settle for a non-flashy player who does the grunt work (like Whitelock).
Rugby is a team game - all the bits and pieces working together is what wins games and tournaments.Itoje will presumably learn not to concede so often.
Sean O'Brien used to infuriate me by the way he could not resist some dumb challenges at the tackle. However, he has improved over the years to be one of the few players in the squad that many Kiwis seemed to rate before the Lions arrived.@Megweya if refs let him get away with it I doubt he will learn...but I expect he will get picked up, some of those were so blatant you wonder what the ref was looking at.
But hey, why stop if the ref only seems to ping you every now and again, he rolled the dice and won.
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@pakman said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #2:
Does anyone know where one can see the official texts of the SBW and SOB rulings?
They're locked in a secret safe inside a box inside an enigma buried in the heart of Conspiracy Mountain.
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''Reckless Tackle
A player is deemed to have made reckless contact during a tackle or attempted tackle or during other phases of the game if in making contact, the player knew or should have known that there was a risk of making contact with the head of an opponent, but did so anyway. This sanction applies even if the tackle starts below the line of the shoulders. This type of contact also applies to grabbing and rolling/ twisting around the head/ neck area even if the contact starts below the line of the shoulders.
Minimum sanction: Yellow card
Maximum sanction: Red card''
So tell me why this didn't apply to SOB?
At least MV received the minimum.
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''Reckless Tackle
A player is deemed to have made reckless contact during a tackle or attempted tackle or during other phases of the game if in making contact, the player knew or should have known that there was a risk of making contact with the head of an opponent, but did so anyway. This sanction applies even if the tackle starts below the line of the shoulders. This type of contact also applies to grabbing and rolling/ twisting around the head/ neck area even if the contact starts below the line of the shoulders.
Minimum sanction: Yellow card
Maximum sanction: Red card''
So tell me why this didn't apply to SOB?
At least MV received the minimum.
@booboo History now, but I can't see any way that if Garces had reviewed the SOB footage during the game he would have escaped a YC. Would be interesting to know what the protocol is if judiciary committee determine it ought to have been YC but wasn't. Assume it's card marked but no other action.
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''Reckless Tackle
A player is deemed to have made reckless contact during a tackle or attempted tackle or during other phases of the game if in making contact, the player knew or should have known that there was a risk of making contact with the head of an opponent, but did so anyway. This sanction applies even if the tackle starts below the line of the shoulders. This type of contact also applies to grabbing and rolling/ twisting around the head/ neck area even if the contact starts below the line of the shoulders.
Minimum sanction: Yellow card
Maximum sanction: Red card''
So tell me why this didn't apply to SOB?
At least MV received the minimum.
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@booboo would you really want to watch a game where every accidental contact with a players head was a card?
@reprobate unfortunately has been happening all season with Super Rugby, been a number of cards for accidental contact and players falling and the tackler hasn't been able to pull out or lower his target.
I'm ok with the SOB ruling, but think MV deserved red for a deliberate hit on a player on the ground away form the ball, obviously others (including the citing commiss) disagree with me
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@reprobate unfortunately has been happening all season with Super Rugby, been a number of cards for accidental contact and players falling and the tackler hasn't been able to pull out or lower his target.
I'm ok with the SOB ruling, but think MV deserved red for a deliberate hit on a player on the ground away form the ball, obviously others (including the citing commiss) disagree with me
@taniwharugby yeah I see SOB as just one of those things that happen. Vunipola yellow, no worries. I'd prefer a red for marler a couple of games back - blatant, no excuses, connected, off the ball.
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@reprobate See I saw a bloke deliberately targeting an unaware player on the ground, diving off his feet and leading with the forearm towards the head. Lucky for both parties he didn't seem to connect as intended - but he still connected.
Edit: and tackling is a part of the game - a forearm to the face of a player on the ground away from play isn't.
@Bones
@reprobate
@taniwharugby
In relation to the SOB forearm, I think you guys are being too nice and have got it wrong.
I went through this in the other thread
When you slow it down, it is pretty obvious that SOB tensed his hand and arm for a hit, he made a half movement to line up the jaw, then the full hit. Completely on purpose. Furthermore, he at no time tried to engage in the tackle. He stayed stooped but held back behind his teammate, let the tackle fall to the ground. He also did not try for the ball which was hidden in Naholo's lap.
Both Vunipolo and this were intentional. Both might have seen red, definitely yellow.
The hit on Naholo cost us a lot in the game, although the boys had a chance to win it and so can only look at themselves in the end. -
@Bones
@reprobate
@taniwharugby
In relation to the SOB forearm, I think you guys are being too nice and have got it wrong.
I went through this in the other thread
When you slow it down, it is pretty obvious that SOB tensed his hand and arm for a hit, he made a half movement to line up the jaw, then the full hit. Completely on purpose. Furthermore, he at no time tried to engage in the tackle. He stayed stooped but held back behind his teammate, let the tackle fall to the ground. He also did not try for the ball which was hidden in Naholo's lap.
Both Vunipolo and this were intentional. Both might have seen red, definitely yellow.
The hit on Naholo cost us a lot in the game, although the boys had a chance to win it and so can only look at themselves in the end.@Wairau said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #2:
@Bones
@reprobate
@taniwharugby
In relation to the SOB forearm, I think you guys are being too nice and have got it wrong.
I went through this in the other thread
When you slow it down, it is pretty obvious that SOB tensed his hand and arm for a hit, he made a half movement to line up the jaw, then the full hit. Completely on purpose. Furthermore, he at no time tried to engage in the tackle. He stayed stooped but held back behind his teammate, let the tackle fall to the ground. He also did not try for the ball which was hidden in Naholo's lap.
Both Vunipolo and this were intentional. Both might have seen red, definitely yellow.
The hit on Naholo cost us a lot in the game, although the boys had a chance to win it and so can only look at themselves in the end.I agree. Makes one wonder what SOB told the nice men of the judiciary panel?!
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I think Vunipola's clearout deserved yellow, but it's an act that happens 10+ times every game now.
'Cleaning out' used to simply be about knocking opposition players off the ball, so the halfback can have quick access. Now it seems like it's a free-for-all to smash any opposition player within 2m of the ruck, regardless of what they are doing. Barrett was clearly rolling away, and there was absolutely no need for Vunipola to clear him out at all, let alone in such reckless fashion.
But I guarantee I could find you multiple instances of both sides committing similar clearouts in that game. I could find plenty in every test, or Super game. It's becoming a blight on the game IMO.
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I think Vunipola's clearout deserved yellow, but it's an act that happens 10+ times every game now.
'Cleaning out' used to simply be about knocking opposition players off the ball, so the halfback can have quick access. Now it seems like it's a free-for-all to smash any opposition player within 2m of the ruck, regardless of what they are doing. Barrett was clearly rolling away, and there was absolutely no need for Vunipola to clear him out at all, let alone in such reckless fashion.
But I guarantee I could find you multiple instances of both sides committing similar clearouts in that game. I could find plenty in every test, or Super game. It's becoming a blight on the game IMO.
@barbarian kinda why harsher sanctions are needed to try and stamp it out.
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I think Vunipola's clearout deserved yellow, but it's an act that happens 10+ times every game now.
'Cleaning out' used to simply be about knocking opposition players off the ball, so the halfback can have quick access. Now it seems like it's a free-for-all to smash any opposition player within 2m of the ruck, regardless of what they are doing. Barrett was clearly rolling away, and there was absolutely no need for Vunipola to clear him out at all, let alone in such reckless fashion.
But I guarantee I could find you multiple instances of both sides committing similar clearouts in that game. I could find plenty in every test, or Super game. It's becoming a blight on the game IMO.
@barbarian Yes you definitely would find lots, but I don't think you'll find one as blatantly off to the side of the ruck, with the player attempting to leave the ruck (almost out of the ruck), and with the guy's flying shoulder forward.
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@barbarian Yes you definitely would find lots, but I don't think you'll find one as blatantly off to the side of the ruck, with the player attempting to leave the ruck (almost out of the ruck), and with the guy's flying shoulder forward.
@Nepia Maybe not. And it's why the ref picked it up, as opposed to the others that go un-noticed. I don't think 'leading with the shoulder' is anything unique though. Many clearouts these days are simply flying shoulder charges with the smallest glimpse of an arm tackle.
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@barbarian Yes you definitely would find lots, but I don't think you'll find one as blatantly off to the side of the ruck, with the player attempting to leave the ruck (almost out of the ruck), and with the guy's flying shoulder forward.
@Nepia said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #2:
@barbarian Yes you definitely would find lots, but I don't think you'll find one as blatantly off to the side of the ruck, with the player attempting to leave the ruck (almost out of the ruck), and with the guy's flying shoulder forward.
... aimed at his opponent's head.
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I like all the judiciary decisions.
I also think the on-field reffing was fine as well on the whole. Certainly didn't see him as inconsistent as some have been saying.
Only times I got annoyed;
- first lineout with Itoje standing in the middle while his team mates yelled" get it in". Not a big impact on game. Was kind of funny.
- penalty v Retallick. But I'm ok with refs making mistakes in real time. Itoje 'won it' more than anything, ironic given how good the Lions are at pillars for the box kick.
- the Murray try. This was the worst as their are ample replays and time. But has been missed several times on tour imo. Maybe I just hate this more than refs do?
When I was calling for offside usually the penalty came a phase or 2 later anyway. Maybe that is where the persistent infringing gripe comes in. At the time I was happy to keep taking the 3s.
Vunipola and O'Broen correct both on field and judiciary for me. I agree there was a 'chance' Vunipola could have got worse if a ref was really looking for it. But I'm glad he wasn't.
