Hurricanes v Lions
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@wairau Someone has gone to some significant effort with that, but to be honest it shows me bugger all.
The first seven frames are all lead up work.
What's important is how we get from frame seven (with Marx's left leg being lifted) to frame nine where he's (presumably) lying there injured.
Frame 8 shows someone's leg sticking out at a strange angle. To be honest I'm wondering how the hell Ardie managed to get Marx's legs there - if indeed they're Marx's.
But more I'm wondering why the guy who compiled this didn't expend his efforts between frames 7 and 9!
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Red lines are fine but I far prefer arrows otherwise I don't know what I'm meant to be looking at.
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lol at the comediennes above
Yeah, not pretty, sorry, if I have time I will revert. Till then, it's sufficient. Took all of 2 minutes to make. The lines point out the 2 protagonists. Yes, 1 is Marx's leg sticking straight up. For me, dangerous, perhaps yellow card or citing. Others? I googled Marky Marx and pro-writers are blaming him being exhausted for the injury-they're blind-but no one replayed the incident. -
all the people talking about frame by frame on Moody -so I spent a few minutes revisiting this video. I am interested in other's opinions about fair punishment for Savea. Too late, I know, but just for the debate.
To avoid mess/page confusion, I deleted the earlier images...
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@Wairau Im unsure what you are claiming.
It wasn't a lift nor was it a neck roll. What was the illegality? Savea held Marx and went to round. Marx looks to have eventually gone off his feet and rolled over the ruck. His injury was caused by trying to stay up with one leg planted while his body was being pulled elsewhere.
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Well, I am not sure if it is illegal-seems very dangerous and directly caused an injury, I am seeking other's opinions. Savea has tackled him. Not lifted him per se, but has in effect tipped him and purposefully caused him to do a somersault and dangerously dumped him on his head.
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I think I said dumped on his head, landed on his back. Picture 4 shows him heading down (then camera zooms out). Picture 5 shows he has completely flipped over. I can show the inbetweens, but logically they show him flipped upside down-from a distance. Would you like to see that?
@crucial I actually slowed down my video, to allow me to go frame by frame, and it is a neck roll. Lam is on the other side of Marx and Savea. Both Lam and Savea grab Marx around the neck and the added weight of Lam helps tip Marx downwards to the side, then Savea lifts him up and completes the flip over, onto his head and back. Clear.
@crucial said in Hurricanes v Lions:
If I was defending a citing here I would be arguing that injury was caused by Marx fighting against the tackle. It was an accident.
and you would be wrong....
Edit: Marx is out of the series Boks Vs England, which is a shame.
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@Wairau Im unsure what you are claiming.
It wasn't a lift nor was it a neck roll. What was the illegality? Savea held Marx and went to round. Marx looks to have eventually gone off his feet and rolled over the ruck. His injury was caused by trying to stay up with one leg planted while his body was being pulled elsewhere.
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I think I said dumped on his head, landed on his back. Picture 4 shows him heading down (then camera zooms out). Picture 5 shows he has completely flipped over. I can show the inbetweens, but logically they show him flipped upside down-from a distance. Would you like to see that?
@crucial I actually slowed down my video, to allow me to go frame by frame, and it is a neck roll. Lam is on the other side of Marx and Savea. Both Lam and Savea grab Marx around the neck and the added weight of Lam helps tip Marx downwards to the side, then Savea lifts him up and completes the flip over, onto his head and back. Clear.
@crucial said in Hurricanes v Lions:
If I was defending a citing here I would be arguing that injury was caused by Marx fighting against the tackle. It was an accident.
and you would be wrong....
Edit: Marx is out of the series Boks Vs England, which is a shame.
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@rebound Agree on pts 1-3, disagree on 4. Dangerous tackles get punished all the time, as they should.
You are making a blanket generalization but I am making specific points about this tackle. 1. Everyone missed it. 2. It was needlessly dangerous and perhaps should have been cited. 3. If this had happened to Ben Smith in a test against South Africa, and caused similar injury, plenty of people would be condemning the tackle, and dangerous back flip.
Shades of a certain tackle in a Lions test....
Cheers. -
I've gone back to my recorded game. Yeah there is no punishment required as nothing was illegal. It's legal to roll someone off the ruck, sadly this time it resulted in an injury. It was neither a neck roll nor a spear tackle, he did not get upside down like BoD. If people were cited every time they caused an injury, there be no one left to play. Just bad luck.
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I've gone back to my recorded game. Yeah there is no punishment required as nothing was illegal. It's legal to roll someone off the ruck, sadly this time it resulted in an injury. It was neither a neck roll nor a spear tackle, he did not get upside down like BoD. If people were cited every time they caused an injury, there be no one left to play. Just bad luck.
@machpants Well, please slow down your recording and check again.....he did get upside down, he flipped over (you can see it happening and the resulting position is evidence-he was twisted and flipped over the ruck, not rolled off the ruck. He was held around the neck by two players and speared down then over.
I am not arguing about all the other injuries and tackles, so your straw man is needless. This one was missed because it happened so quickly as the camera zoomed out and was not clear. But, we should be honest, not gloss over it just because Savea is popular.
I was just curious if anyone sees or cares. I guess not. Carry on, then. -
@machpants Well, please slow down your recording and check again.....he did get upside down, he flipped over (you can see it happening and the resulting position is evidence-he was twisted and flipped over the ruck, not rolled off the ruck. He was held around the neck by two players and speared down then over.
I am not arguing about all the other injuries and tackles, so your straw man is needless. This one was missed because it happened so quickly as the camera zoomed out and was not clear. But, we should be honest, not gloss over it just because Savea is popular.
I was just curious if anyone sees or cares. I guess not. Carry on, then.@wairau It's not that no one cares, it's that no one can see it, and quite frankly none of your pics help illuminate the claims you're making. Savea's not that popular, there's a cabal
on here that would delight in sticking the boot into him if this was true. -
@machpants Well, please slow down your recording and check again.....he did get upside down, he flipped over (you can see it happening and the resulting position is evidence-he was twisted and flipped over the ruck, not rolled off the ruck. He was held around the neck by two players and speared down then over.
I am not arguing about all the other injuries and tackles, so your straw man is needless. This one was missed because it happened so quickly as the camera zoomed out and was not clear. But, we should be honest, not gloss over it just because Savea is popular.
I was just curious if anyone sees or cares. I guess not. Carry on, then.@wairau said in Hurricanes v Lions:
@machpants Well, please slow down your recording and check again.....he did get upside down, he flipped over (you can see it happening and the resulting position is evidence-he was twisted and flipped over the ruck, not rolled off the ruck. He was held around the neck by two players and speared down then over.
I am not arguing about all the other injuries and tackles, so your straw man is needless. This one was missed because it happened so quickly as the camera zoomed out and was not clear. But, we should be honest, not gloss over it just because Savea is popular.
I was just curious if anyone sees or cares. I guess not. Carry on, then.Held around the neck by two players? Speared? I'm only going by the pics but I can't see how you come to those accusations.
If anything look at pics 1 and 2. AS tries to clear MM out but MM holds strong with power through his left leg. Nothing illegal has happened.
The forces involved mean that AS (who is pushing off his left leg) shears off to the left and over the ruck. Instead of going with the movement MM stays strong on the left leg and twists (causing his groin injury). Still nothing illegal has happened (as long as there was no neck roll). So we have an injury caused by general play. If MM had the moment again he would probably choose to go with the movement rather than fight against it and therefore avoid injury.
Yes, he eventually gives in and rolls over the ruck, but at no point was lifted, so nothing illegal.
Players often end up on the ground rolling over their shoulders in a tackle.
Comparing this with the BOD incident is bizarre. AS was perfectly entitled to do what he did and it was only because MM held strong that an injury happened. Tough shit. -
OK, I will try to use other pictures to answer some of this:
Pic 1 shows Lam and AS. PL clearly has a neck roll hold on MM, while AS is shown with his right arm over the shoulder against the neck of MM.
-PL then rolls down to his right, as does AS, forcing MM's head down and his hips up, which was shown in my other photos, and pic 2 here.
Crucial, given PL has his head in a neck roll, and AS is lifting his leg to the right, there was nothing MM could do but try to remain stable with his one planted leg.
I compared it with BOD becasue here we have 2 players (PL neck roll, AS lift of leg and tip) causing a similar tip and tumble..last picture shows MM's left leg, and right foot, where MM has clearly down a somersault due to PL's neck roll and AS's lifting his right leg.
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OK, I will try to use other pictures to answer some of this:
Pic 1 shows Lam and AS. PL clearly has a neck roll hold on MM, while AS is shown with his right arm over the shoulder against the neck of MM.
-PL then rolls down to his right, as does AS, forcing MM's head down and his hips up, which was shown in my other photos, and pic 2 here.
Crucial, given PL has his head in a neck roll, and AS is lifting his leg to the right, there was nothing MM could do but try to remain stable with his one planted leg.
I compared it with BOD becasue here we have 2 players (PL neck roll, AS lift of leg and tip) causing a similar tip and tumble..last picture shows MM's left leg, and right foot, where MM has clearly down a somersault due to PL's neck roll and AS's lifting his right leg.
@wairau said in Hurricanes v Lions:
OK, I will try to use other pictures to answer some of this:
Pic 1 shows Lam and AS. PL clearly has a neck roll hold on MM, while AS is shown with his right arm over the shoulder against the neck of MM.
Not clear to me. PL can easily be grasping MMs jersey and keeping his arm away from the neck (neck roll indicates a lock on the neck/head). AS is shown with his right arm.....somewhere..... if that blur in from of PLs face is AS's right arm then it looks like he is in contact on MMs right shoulder, not around his neck. Either way the evidence is weak
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@wairau said in Hurricanes v Lions:
OK, I will try to use other pictures to answer some of this:
Pic 1 shows Lam and AS. PL clearly has a neck roll hold on MM, while AS is shown with his right arm over the shoulder against the neck of MM.
Not clear to me. PL can easily be grasping MMs jersey and keeping his arm away from the neck (neck roll indicates a lock on the neck/head). AS is shown with his right arm.....somewhere..... if that blur in from of PLs face is AS's right arm then it looks like he is in contact on MMs right shoulder, not around his neck. Either way the evidence is weak
@crucial
PL's arm is on top of AS's arm, both wrapped around the neck, and from the angle they drag him, they would be putting a lot of force on his neck.
edit: where was MM's support? Not only were our guys reckless and dangerous, but he was left exposed. Also, did AS come in from the side? How much leeway is he given for entry?That's enough from me on this topic. Cheers
