2018 New Zealand U20s
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There's something that should be cited.
Then the judiciary can decide whether it's intentional or accidental. If he's found guilty, I'd say 6-12 weeks.
@chris-b That's not how it works. The citing commissioner can only cite red cardable offences. Accidental offences are hardly ever red cardable, so won't get cited. In the case of stomping, I think it's hard to argue that it's accidental anyway; it's more likely to be reckless. That could reach the red card threshhold and get cited.
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@chris-b That's not how it works. The citing commissioner can only cite red cardable offences. Accidental offences are hardly ever red cardable, so won't get cited. In the case of stomping, I think it's hard to argue that it's accidental anyway; it's more likely to be reckless. That could reach the red card threshhold and get cited.
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@stargazer I think that is how it works - otherwise how did Squire escape?
The citing commissioner cites things that in his opinion reach the red card threshold - he's the policeman.
The judiciary then hold a hearing - they're the court.
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@chris-b It only reached the Judicial Committe because the Citing Commissioner got it wrong. He thought it was red-cardable and the JC didn't agree.
@stargazer That's what I'm saying.
The process is very much like the civil court system. The citing commissioner acts like the police and "brings charges" i.e. things he thinks meet the red card threshold.
Then there's a hearing and players can plead guilty or not guilty. If they plead"not guilty", they get to defend their actions and the JC either agree with the commissioner or agree with the player (as in Squire's case).
In this case, that footage looks pretty damning, but it's possible e.g. that Renton has caught his foot on the French player and stumbled onto him rather than stamping him - and maybe there will be footage from another angle that might support that case. Or maybe Renton has been a dirty bastard who will get deservedly banned.
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@stargazer That's what I'm saying.
The process is very much like the civil court system. The citing commissioner acts like the police and "brings charges" i.e. things he thinks meet the red card threshold.
Then there's a hearing and players can plead guilty or not guilty. If they plead"not guilty", they get to defend their actions and the JC either agree with the commissioner or agree with the player (as in Squire's case).
In this case, that footage looks pretty damning, but it's possible e.g. that Renton has caught his foot on the French player and stumbled onto him rather than stamping him - and maybe there will be footage from another angle that might support that case. Or maybe Renton has been a dirty bastard who will get deservedly banned.
@chris-b Sorry, I understood your comment as meaning that - because there was a serious incident - this was enough reason to cite the player and then let the Judicial Committee decide whether its intentional or accidental.
That's why I said that the Citing Commissioner can only cite red-cardable offences and to do that, he must himself determine whether an incident meets the red card trheshold, and for that he himself has to establish whether it was reckless or accidental. So it's the CC in the first instance who has to make that determination.
A lot of people seem to think (maybe not you) that the CC can just cite any serious looking incident and leave it to the JC to determine whether it's reckless or accidental. Accidental incidents don't reach the JC very often.
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@chris-b Sorry, I understood your comment as meaning that - because there was a serious incident - this was enough reason to cite the player and then let the Judicial Committee decide whether its intentional or accidental.
That's why I said that the Citing Commissioner can only cite red-cardable offences and to do that, he must himself determine whether an incident meets the red card trheshold, and for that he himself has to establish whether it was reckless or accidental. So it's the CC in the first instance who has to make that determination.
A lot of people seem to think (maybe not you) that the CC can just cite any serious looking incident and leave it to the JC to determine whether it's reckless or accidental. Accidental incidents don't reach the JC very often.
@stargazer Incidents like this one, I tend to give the player a bit of benefit of the doubt, because with referees and TV cameras watching it is highly unlikely you're going to get away with blatantly stamping on someone.
So you've got to be both a grub and an idiot!
Incidentally, was interesting to see Owen Franks on TV a couple of nights ago saying he didn't even know he'd collected Parsons until he saw it on the big screen. At a different point in the season, I reckon he might have pleaded not guilty on that one.
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@stargazer Incidents like this one, I tend to give the player a bit of benefit of the doubt, because with referees and TV cameras watching it is highly unlikely you're going to get away with blatantly stamping on someone.
So you've got to be both a grub and an idiot!
Incidentally, was interesting to see Owen Franks on TV a couple of nights ago saying he didn't even know he'd collected Parsons until he saw it on the big screen. At a different point in the season, I reckon he might have pleaded not guilty on that one.
@chris-b said in 2018 New Zealand U20s:
@stargazer Incidents like this one, I tend to give the player a bit of benefit of the doubt, because with referees and TV cameras watching it is highly unlikely you're going to get away with blatantly stamping on someone.
So you've got to be both a grub and an idiot!
Incidentally, was interesting to see Owen Franks on TV a couple of nights ago saying he didn't even know he'd collected Parsons until he saw it on the big screen. At a different point in the season, I reckon he might have pleaded not guilty on that one.
These guys are too young to have adjusted their behaviour for TV cameras, this is their first taste of televised rugby and the millions of qualified citing commisioners armed with gif tools on twitter.
Looks like the scrummy is trying to pretend he is getting his feet tangled up with a guy lying on the wrong side and uses it as an opportunity to put in a sly stamp on the inside of the forearm. His trailing leg also catches the guy in the face in a backwards kicking motion.
You could give him the benefit of the doubt on the trailing leg. But again a bit like Telea v Wales U20, even if giving that - while deliberately performing one lesser foul he has feasibly accidentally committed a worse foul.
I'd like to give him the benefit of the doubt, but can't quite. E.g. he's acting to make it look like the first stamp is accidental, it's not convincing. The second stamp there is an element of doubt about intent - but as he is already pretending that the first stamp is accidental, well ......
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@chris-b said in 2018 New Zealand U20s:
@stargazer Incidents like this one, I tend to give the player a bit of benefit of the doubt, because with referees and TV cameras watching it is highly unlikely you're going to get away with blatantly stamping on someone.
So you've got to be both a grub and an idiot!
Incidentally, was interesting to see Owen Franks on TV a couple of nights ago saying he didn't even know he'd collected Parsons until he saw it on the big screen. At a different point in the season, I reckon he might have pleaded not guilty on that one.
These guys are too young to have adjusted their behaviour for TV cameras, this is their first taste of televised rugby and the millions of qualified citing commisioners armed with gif tools on twitter.
Looks like the scrummy is trying to pretend he is getting his feet tangled up with a guy lying on the wrong side and uses it as an opportunity to put in a sly stamp on the inside of the forearm. His trailing leg also catches the guy in the face in a backwards kicking motion.
You could give him the benefit of the doubt on the trailing leg. But again a bit like Telea v Wales U20, even if giving that - while deliberately performing one lesser foul he has feasibly accidentally committed a worse foul.
I'd like to give him the benefit of the doubt, but can't quite. E.g. he's acting to make it look like the first stamp is accidental, it's not convincing. The second stamp there is an element of doubt about intent - but as he is already pretending that the first stamp is accidental, well ......
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I don't see many of these NZU20 forwards wearing an AB jersey in the future. Flanders maybe but the others are soft. McWhannel has a good workrate but too skinny. Plummer and Koroi were pretty disappointing. I reckon the backs missed their big men (Telea and Faingaanuku) but their basic skills were poor. They just could not stand the pressure.
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That dropped pass was critical. 14-16 we could have set for a DG.
@billy-tell said in 2018 New Zealand U20s:
That dropped pass was critical. 14-16 we could have set for a DG.
Comedy Gold
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@footy01 I read an article, or heard an interview (I can't remember) recently in which they discussed the huge impact the presence of so many NZ players (particularly former ABs) had on young French players in the Top 14. They said these young players were like sponges. Instead of criticising the big number of AB retirees in the Top 14, they said they should cherish it because there was so much learning opportunity from the best in the game. I remember specifically guys like Carter, Conrad Smith and Vito being mentioned.
@stargazer said in 2018 New Zealand U20s:
@footy01 I read an article, or heard an interview (I can't remember) recently in which they discussed the huge impact the presence of so many NZ players (particularly former ABs) had on young French players in the Top 14. They said these young players were like sponges. Instead of criticising the big number of AB retirees in the Top 14, they said they should cherish it because there was so much learning opportunity from the best in the game. I remember specifically guys like Carter, Conrad Smith and Vito being mentioned.
Surely not as influential as a young NZ player playing in NZ (No. 1 in the world), with players who are arguably the best in their position in the world, and being coached by coaches who are arguably the best in the world.
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@stargazer said in 2018 New Zealand U20s:
@footy01 I read an article, or heard an interview (I can't remember) recently in which they discussed the huge impact the presence of so many NZ players (particularly former ABs) had on young French players in the Top 14. They said these young players were like sponges. Instead of criticising the big number of AB retirees in the Top 14, they said they should cherish it because there was so much learning opportunity from the best in the game. I remember specifically guys like Carter, Conrad Smith and Vito being mentioned.
Surely not as influential as a young NZ player playing in NZ (No. 1 in the world), with players who are arguably the best in their position in the world, and being coached by coaches who are arguably the best in the world.
@mikethesnow said in 2018 New Zealand U20s:
@stargazer said in 2018 New Zealand U20s:
@footy01 I read an article, or heard an interview (I can't remember) recently in which they discussed the huge impact the presence of so many NZ players (particularly former ABs) had on young French players in the Top 14. They said these young players were like sponges. Instead of criticising the big number of AB retirees in the Top 14, they said they should cherish it because there was so much learning opportunity from the best in the game. I remember specifically guys like Carter, Conrad Smith and Vito being mentioned.
Surely not as influential as a young NZ player playing in NZ (No. 1 in the world), with players who are arguably the best in their position in the world, and being coached by coaches who are arguably the best in the world (plus Tana and friends).
Fixed
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From the twitter page of Tier 2 Rugby
Of the France U20 23 today 18 played senior pro rugby for their clubs this season, between them 175 matches, 81 starts, 7223 minutes. Easily the most of any side in the comp. By comparison NZ U20 had 11 who played ITM Cup rugby, between them 48 matches, 23 starts, 2219 minutes.
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@rapido Isn't this supposed to be the internet savvy generation? These kids have been brought up with continuous outrage!
@chris-b said in 2018 New Zealand U20s:
@rapido Isn't this supposed to be the internet savvy generation? These kids have been brought up with continuous outrage!
True.
Just some good ol Southland rucking, then.
Or maybe they don't have broadband yet in Southland.
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@chris-b said in 2018 New Zealand U20s:
@rapido Isn't this supposed to be the internet savvy generation? These kids have been brought up with continuous outrage!
True.
Just some good ol Southland rucking, then.
Or maybe they don't have broadband yet in Southland.
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From the twitter page of Tier 2 Rugby
Of the France U20 23 today 18 played senior pro rugby for their clubs this season, between them 175 matches, 81 starts, 7223 minutes. Easily the most of any side in the comp. By comparison NZ U20 had 11 who played ITM Cup rugby, between them 48 matches, 23 starts, 2219 minutes.
@number-10 Yes, I saw that tweet (posted it in this thread earlier today). It's one (but obviously not the sole) reason why they were better. A lot more first class experience.
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I don't see many of these NZU20 forwards wearing an AB jersey in the future. Flanders maybe but the others are soft. McWhannel has a good workrate but too skinny. Plummer and Koroi were pretty disappointing. I reckon the backs missed their big men (Telea and Faingaanuku) but their basic skills were poor. They just could not stand the pressure.
@cgrant said in 2018 New Zealand U20s:
I don't see many of these NZU20 forwards wearing an AB jersey in the future.
This isn't a great class of U20s but I wouldn't be writing them all off yet as they gain experience and some muscle. The props did show that size isn't everything at this level.
McWhannel has a good workrate but too skinny.
Do you remember how skinny Whitelock was when he played for the U20s?
I like what I've seen from McWhannell and expect him to be a regular in the Waikato team this season, and possibly a squad member for the Chiefs from next year. He has a big engine and plenty of speed for a lock. Two examples from this mornings game. The first was midway through the 1st half when he made an important covering tackle in the midfield to stop a French counterattack that had breached the backline defence. The second was being in support for the break that should have resulted in the 2nd try if Jackson didn't drop the ball.
