All Blacks v France Test 3
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I'm just bloody stunned by how thin we are two full seasons after a RWC. Losing half a dozen all timey greats was never goin to be easy to recover from but there was depth at the time at 10, in midfield and at loose head prop but now we're thin as fuck and even worse when it comes to combinations involving those positions plus in the loose forwards. We've had something like 30 tests since the last RWC yet where are the proven loose forwards after Reado (also aging) and a bit of depth at 7? Kaino was never gonna make another RWC cycle yet we don't have a clear successor at 6. Squire is close but didn't cover himself in glory last week. No quality 8 back up either. We're lucky at hooker that Taylor has really stepped up in Coles' absence of that'd be another problem position. Back up props are an issue also with Faumuina and Crockett gone. Massive stroke of luck that Karl T has come outta nowhere or we'd be in all sorts. And Ofa ain't a long term solution. At lock we have a stunning top trio when fit and two world class half-backs. No dramas in the outside backs aside from settling on a top combination. Midfield is messy. We've had plenty of unavailability for various reasons but at times SBW and Crotty have looked good together and also Crotty and ALB in 2016. But I don't think SBW is a certainty to make it to the RWC and that leaves us really scratching unless we bring another grunty AND rounded midfielder in (this isn't Laumape) and give him a dozen games so we have someone to compliment Crotty and ALB. At 10 we need now to give Mo'unga minutes and as many as possible. D Mac isnt the back up option there, but could be a third option as a utility come RWC time with another Super Rugby season under his belt.
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Given the amount of turnover ball he (still) gives the opposition at the breakdown, just no.
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Franklin has played at 6 for the Highlanders hasn't he? He'd be the ideal lock/blindside cover off the bench, and has found some form.
I think we'll see BFA move back to fullback and Naholo on the right wing. This is the test Mo'unga is always likely to start now that the series has been won. He'd be wanting his pack and halfback to play better this week though!
@bovidae said in All Blacks v France Test 3:
This is the test Mo'unga is always likely to start now that the series has been won. He'd be wanting his pack and halfback to play better this week though!
You could well be right. Shag could also see how well he combines with DMac at 9. :fishing_pole:
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I'm just thinking about the guys NZ rugby has let go since 2015 in positions where we are now struggling. Cruden, Sopoaga and Luatua stand out. Faumuina also. That little lot would all (bar maybe Sopoaga) be in the frame right now and easing the pain somewhat.
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@bovidae said in All Blacks v France Test 3:
This is the test Mo'unga is always likely to start now that the series has been won. He'd be wanting his pack and halfback to play better this week though!
You could well be right. Shag could also see how well he combines with DMac at 9. :fishing_pole:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France Test 3:
@bovidae said in All Blacks v France Test 3:
This is the test Mo'unga is always likely to start now that the series has been won. He'd be wanting his pack and halfback to play better this week though!
You could well be right. Shag could also see how well he combines with DMac at 9. :fishing_pole:
I wish they were doing that Amazon doco again this year. Would love to witness the halfbacks being dragged off to the corner of the sheds and read the riot act.
That was embarrassing from both AS and TJP last week.
I don't think you can fairly judge anyone that was trying to play outside them after the shite they dished up. When the utility back who doesn't even play halfback stands in and outplays you there is good reason to cop a towelling in showers. -
@shark said in All Blacks v France Test 3:
I'm just bloody stunned by how thin we are two full seasons after a RWC. Losing half a dozen all timey greats was never goin to be easy to recover from but there was depth at the time at 10, in midfield and at loose head prop but now we're thin as fuck and even worse when it comes to combinations involving those positions plus in the loose forwards. We've had something like 30 tests since the last RWC yet where are the proven loose forwards after Reado (also aging) and a bit of depth at 7? Kaino was never gonna make another RWC cycle yet we don't have a clear successor at 6. Squire is close but didn't cover himself in glory last week. No quality 8 back up either. We're lucky at hooker that Taylor has really stepped up in Coles' absence of that'd be another problem position. Back up props are an issue also with Faumuina and Crockett gone. Massive stroke of luck that Karl T has come outta nowhere or we'd be in all sorts. And Ofa ain't a long term solution. At lock we have a stunning top trio when fit and two world class half-backs. No dramas in the outside backs aside from settling on a top combination. Midfield is messy. We've had plenty of unavailability for various reasons but at times SBW and Crotty have looked good together and also Crotty and ALB in 2016. But I don't think SBW is a certainty to make it to the RWC and that leaves us really scratching unless we bring another grunty AND rounded midfielder in (this isn't Laumape) and give him a dozen games so we have someone to compliment Crotty and ALB. At 10 we need now to give Mo'unga minutes and as many as possible. D Mac isnt the back up option there, but could be a third option as a utility come RWC time with another Super Rugby season under his belt.
I think there are two major causes of things not being as settled as we would like at this stage in the rwc cycle.
First is the Lions tour. A few guys obviously stuck around for that before leaving to cash in up north where they possibly would have left a year or two earlier if the Lions tour wasn't happening. Eg. Kaino, Charlie F, Crockett, Cruden, TKB, Sopoaga, Fekitoa and Luatua (to a lesser extent) all held out until after the Lions to bugger off or retire. That has meant the post 2015 rebuild has been staggered so you only get 2 years to rebuild rather than the usual 4.The other major factor is the shear amount of long term injuries guys have been getting. Established guys like Coles, Read, Dagg, Ben Smith, Crotty and SBW have been out regularly or for extended periods meaning combinations haven't been able to form with guys coming in. Then on top of that you have newer guys like Squire, Laulala, Hames, Moli, Aumua, Jordie, nms and Bird being long term injured and missing out on important development time and chances to nail down a spot.
Of course you then also have to add guys like Ardie, Elliot Dixon, Harris and Tuipulotu not exactly stepping up to where we would want them to.
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I'm just bloody stunned by how thin we are two full seasons after a RWC. Losing half a dozen all timey greats was never goin to be easy to recover from but there was depth at the time at 10, in midfield and at loose head prop but now we're thin as fuck and even worse when it comes to combinations involving those positions plus in the loose forwards. We've had something like 30 tests since the last RWC yet where are the proven loose forwards after Reado (also aging) and a bit of depth at 7? Kaino was never gonna make another RWC cycle yet we don't have a clear successor at 6. Squire is close but didn't cover himself in glory last week. No quality 8 back up either. We're lucky at hooker that Taylor has really stepped up in Coles' absence of that'd be another problem position. Back up props are an issue also with Faumuina and Crockett gone. Massive stroke of luck that Karl T has come outta nowhere or we'd be in all sorts. And Ofa ain't a long term solution. At lock we have a stunning top trio when fit and two world class half-backs. No dramas in the outside backs aside from settling on a top combination. Midfield is messy. We've had plenty of unavailability for various reasons but at times SBW and Crotty have looked good together and also Crotty and ALB in 2016. But I don't think SBW is a certainty to make it to the RWC and that leaves us really scratching unless we bring another grunty AND rounded midfielder in (this isn't Laumape) and give him a dozen games so we have someone to compliment Crotty and ALB. At 10 we need now to give Mo'unga minutes and as many as possible. D Mac isnt the back up option there, but could be a third option as a utility come RWC time with another Super Rugby season under his belt.
@shark said in All Blacks v France Test 3:
I'm just bloody stunned by how thin we are two full seasons after a RWC. Losing half a dozen all timey greats was never goin to be easy to recover from but there was depth at the time at 10, in midfield and at loose head prop but now we're thin as fuck and even worse when it comes to combinations involving those positions plus in the loose forwards. We've had something like 30 tests since the last RWC yet where are the proven loose forwards after Reado (also aging) and a bit of depth at 7? Kaino was never gonna make another RWC cycle yet we don't have a clear successor at 6. Squire is close but didn't cover himself in glory last week. No quality 8 back up either. We're lucky at hooker that Taylor has really stepped up in Coles' absence of that'd be another problem position. Back up props are an issue also with Faumuina and Crockett gone. Massive stroke of luck that Karl T has come outta nowhere or we'd be in all sorts. And Ofa ain't a long term solution. At lock we have a stunning top trio when fit and two world class half-backs. No dramas in the outside backs aside from settling on a top combination. Midfield is messy. We've had plenty of unavailability for various reasons but at times SBW and Crotty have looked good together and also Crotty and ALB in 2016. But I don't think SBW is a certainty to make it to the RWC and that leaves us really scratching unless we bring another grunty AND rounded midfielder in (this isn't Laumape) and give him a dozen games so we have someone to compliment Crotty and ALB. At 10 we need now to give Mo'unga minutes and as many as possible. D Mac isnt the back up option there, but could be a third option as a utility come RWC time with another Super Rugby season under his belt.
As much as some will hate it DMac is pretty much inked in (as in they will concentrate on filling other spots) for the utility role at the RWC. You have to take the squad makeup into account.
We desperately need Laulala playing as I think he could well overtake Owen F by next year.
I won't disrupt this thread too much more and may start (or retrieve) a RWC thread to seriously look at where we are depth wise and who we can count on. -
I'm just bloody stunned by how thin we are two full seasons after a RWC. Losing half a dozen all timey greats was never goin to be easy to recover from but there was depth at the time at 10, in midfield and at loose head prop but now we're thin as fuck and even worse when it comes to combinations involving those positions plus in the loose forwards. We've had something like 30 tests since the last RWC yet where are the proven loose forwards after Reado (also aging) and a bit of depth at 7? Kaino was never gonna make another RWC cycle yet we don't have a clear successor at 6. Squire is close but didn't cover himself in glory last week. No quality 8 back up either. We're lucky at hooker that Taylor has really stepped up in Coles' absence of that'd be another problem position. Back up props are an issue also with Faumuina and Crockett gone. Massive stroke of luck that Karl T has come outta nowhere or we'd be in all sorts. And Ofa ain't a long term solution. At lock we have a stunning top trio when fit and two world class half-backs. No dramas in the outside backs aside from settling on a top combination. Midfield is messy. We've had plenty of unavailability for various reasons but at times SBW and Crotty have looked good together and also Crotty and ALB in 2016. But I don't think SBW is a certainty to make it to the RWC and that leaves us really scratching unless we bring another grunty AND rounded midfielder in (this isn't Laumape) and give him a dozen games so we have someone to compliment Crotty and ALB. At 10 we need now to give Mo'unga minutes and as many as possible. D Mac isnt the back up option there, but could be a third option as a utility come RWC time with another Super Rugby season under his belt.
@shark personally think we're suffering an unprecedented injury crisis that I can't remember having to go through before.
Our depth is currently shit at prop yes?
Doesn't help that Hames, Laulala and Moli are out. All of a sudden that'd put Karl Mo outside the squad and leave one of our current THs out too.
Coles, Aumua. And suddenly Rikitikitavi is 6th choice.
Romero's injury meant he was down the pecking order. Still 4th choice. After that there's a drop off true. Combine that with Tuipulotu's form drop post drug test. I'm a fan of Lousi though.
Read. Have a feeling there's some potential 6/8s around who are injured (like Seu and others I can't think of).
Think our backs are looking pretty good though.
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@shark personally think we're suffering an unprecedented injury crisis that I can't remember having to go through before.
Our depth is currently shit at prop yes?
Doesn't help that Hames, Laulala and Moli are out. All of a sudden that'd put Karl Mo outside the squad and leave one of our current THs out too.
Coles, Aumua. And suddenly Rikitikitavi is 6th choice.
Romero's injury meant he was down the pecking order. Still 4th choice. After that there's a drop off true. Combine that with Tuipulotu's form drop post drug test. I'm a fan of Lousi though.
Read. Have a feeling there's some potential 6/8s around who are injured (like Seu and others I can't think of).
Think our backs are looking pretty good though.
@booboo said in All Blacks v France Test 3:
@shark personally think we're suffering an unprecedented injury crisis that I can't remember having to go through before.
Our depth is currently shit at prop yes?
Doesn't help that Hames, Laulala and Moli are out. All of a sudden that'd put Karl Mo outside the squad and leave one of our current THs out too.
Coles, Aumua. And suddenly Rikitikitavi is 6th choice.
Romero's injury meant he was down the pecking order. Still 4th choice. After that there's a drop off true. Combine that with Tuipulotu's form drop post drug test. I'm a fan of Lousi though.
Read. Have a feeling there's some potential 6/8s around who are injured (like Seu and others I can't think of).
Think our backs are looking pretty good though.
Think when full deck available prop is OK. LH: Moody/Hames/BKT TH:Franks/Laulala Both: Ofa/Moli.
For me biggest hole is backup 'power' lock for BBBR. Barrett (S) lacks heft. Romero not dynamic. Patty T doesn't seem to understand the tight requirements at scrum and maul (year at Crusaders would do him good). At LH lock Samuel W, Barrett and Franklin are respectable.
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@act-crusader said in All Blacks v France Test 3:
@nepia said in All Blacks v France Test 3:
On Akira, maybe they're using Read as the blueprint for him - you all might remember, Cantabs certainly will, that Read was actually held back from elevation to the ABs initially.
Read started his super career playing on the blindside, and it wasn’t until his second season that he really settled as our no8 and after a strong season he made the ABs that same year for the EOYT. Rodders was still around for 2008 as the incumbent.
I was a huge Rodders fan so it didn’t make much difference to me.
Nepia is right, though.
Henry said at the time (when Read wasn't picked) that they expected him to be a very important player for the ABs in the future and they were going to take their time in letting him develop before rushing him in.
@chris-b said in All Blacks v France Test 3:
@act-crusader said in All Blacks v France Test 3:
@nepia said in All Blacks v France Test 3:
On Akira, maybe they're using Read as the blueprint for him - you all might remember, Cantabs certainly will, that Read was actually held back from elevation to the ABs initially.
Read started his super career playing on the blindside, and it wasn’t until his second season that he really settled as our no8 and after a strong season he made the ABs that same year for the EOYT. Rodders was still around for 2008 as the incumbent.
I was a huge Rodders fan so it didn’t make much difference to me.
Nepia is right, though.
Henry said at the time (when Read wasn't picked) that they expected him to be a very important player for the ABs in the future and they were going to take their time in letting him develop before rushing him in.
The funny thing with that (and hindsight is bliss), Read played a lot of test footy in 2009 as Rodders form took a considerable dip and he lost that edge.
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Sumo seems to be certain on the team:
6 Frizell 7 Ardie 8 Whitelock 13 Goodhue
19 Hemopo 20 Todd 22 Mounga 23 Jordie
https://www.rugbypass.com/news/blacks-make-changes-third-france-test
@kiwimurph said in All Blacks v France Test 3:
Sumo seems to be certain on the team:
6 Frizell 7 Ardie 8 Whitelock 13 Goodhue
19 Hemopo 20 Todd 22 Mounga 23 Jordie
https://www.rugbypass.com/news/blacks-make-changes-third-france-test
I wonder how he "knows" this. Since when do the AB selectors leak their line-up before Thursday? Or would it be so obvious, just from watching them train?
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@kiwimurph said in All Blacks v France Test 3:
Sumo seems to be certain on the team:
6 Frizell 7 Ardie 8 Whitelock 13 Goodhue
19 Hemopo 20 Todd 22 Mounga 23 Jordie
https://www.rugbypass.com/news/blacks-make-changes-third-france-test
I wonder how he "knows" this. Since when do the AB selectors leak their line-up before Thursday? Or would it be so obvious, just from watching them train?
@stargazer said in All Blacks v France Test 3:
@kiwimurph said in All Blacks v France Test 3:
Sumo seems to be certain on the team:
6 Frizell 7 Ardie 8 Whitelock 13 Goodhue
19 Hemopo 20 Todd 22 Mounga 23 Jordie
https://www.rugbypass.com/news/blacks-make-changes-third-france-test
I wonder how he "knows" this. Since when do the AB selectors leak their line-up before Thursday? Or would it be so obvious, just from watching them train?
I think those that hang around the camp work it out from various observations like training lineups, coaches reactions/ expressions, player's reactions/expressions etc. They will have observed how things work enough times to have their analysis pretty accurate.
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@shark said in All Blacks v France Test 3:
I'm just bloody stunned by how thin we are two full seasons after a RWC. Losing half a dozen all timey greats was never goin to be easy to recover from but there was depth at the time at 10, in midfield and at loose head prop but now we're thin as fuck and even worse when it comes to combinations involving those positions plus in the loose forwards. We've had something like 30 tests since the last RWC yet where are the proven loose forwards after Reado (also aging) and a bit of depth at 7? Kaino was never gonna make another RWC cycle yet we don't have a clear successor at 6. Squire is close but didn't cover himself in glory last week. No quality 8 back up either. We're lucky at hooker that Taylor has really stepped up in Coles' absence of that'd be another problem position. Back up props are an issue also with Faumuina and Crockett gone. Massive stroke of luck that Karl T has come outta nowhere or we'd be in all sorts. And Ofa ain't a long term solution. At lock we have a stunning top trio when fit and two world class half-backs. No dramas in the outside backs aside from settling on a top combination. Midfield is messy. We've had plenty of unavailability for various reasons but at times SBW and Crotty have looked good together and also Crotty and ALB in 2016. But I don't think SBW is a certainty to make it to the RWC and that leaves us really scratching unless we bring another grunty AND rounded midfielder in (this isn't Laumape) and give him a dozen games so we have someone to compliment Crotty and ALB. At 10 we need now to give Mo'unga minutes and as many as possible. D Mac isnt the back up option there, but could be a third option as a utility come RWC time with another Super Rugby season under his belt.
Paragraphs please. I simply cannot be bothered reading text like that on my phone.
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I'm just thinking about the guys NZ rugby has let go since 2015 in positions where we are now struggling. Cruden, Sopoaga and Luatua stand out. Faumuina also. That little lot would all (bar maybe Sopoaga) be in the frame right now and easing the pain somewhat.
@shark said in All Blacks v France Test 3:
I'm just thinking about the guys NZ rugby has let go since 2015 in positions where we are now struggling. Cruden, Sopoaga and Luatua stand out. Faumuina also. That little lot would all (bar maybe Sopoaga) be in the frame right now and easing the pain somewhat.
They didn’t let them go. They chose not to bankrupt NZ rugby by matching French salaries. Would have happily kept them if they could.
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I'm just bloody stunned by how thin we are two full seasons after a RWC. Losing half a dozen all timey greats was never goin to be easy to recover from but there was depth at the time at 10, in midfield and at loose head prop but now we're thin as fuck and even worse when it comes to combinations involving those positions plus in the loose forwards. We've had something like 30 tests since the last RWC yet where are the proven loose forwards after Reado (also aging) and a bit of depth at 7? Kaino was never gonna make another RWC cycle yet we don't have a clear successor at 6. Squire is close but didn't cover himself in glory last week. No quality 8 back up either. We're lucky at hooker that Taylor has really stepped up in Coles' absence of that'd be another problem position. Back up props are an issue also with Faumuina and Crockett gone. Massive stroke of luck that Karl T has come outta nowhere or we'd be in all sorts. And Ofa ain't a long term solution. At lock we have a stunning top trio when fit and two world class half-backs. No dramas in the outside backs aside from settling on a top combination. Midfield is messy. We've had plenty of unavailability for various reasons but at times SBW and Crotty have looked good together and also Crotty and ALB in 2016. But I don't think SBW is a certainty to make it to the RWC and that leaves us really scratching unless we bring another grunty AND rounded midfielder in (this isn't Laumape) and give him a dozen games so we have someone to compliment Crotty and ALB. At 10 we need now to give Mo'unga minutes and as many as possible. D Mac isnt the back up option there, but could be a third option as a utility come RWC time with another Super Rugby season under his belt.
@shark said in All Blacks v France Test 3:
We're lucky at hooker that Taylor has really stepped up in Coles' absence of that'd be another problem position.
I don't get this. Bemoan the fact the coaches haven't found players/backups in certain positions, then when there's a spot they have, it's just luck?
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@shark said in All Blacks v France Test 3:
We're lucky at hooker that Taylor has really stepped up in Coles' absence of that'd be another problem position.
I don't get this. Bemoan the fact the coaches haven't found players/backups in certain positions, then when there's a spot they have, it's just luck?
@bones Taylor has stepped up massively in Coles' absence. He was the designated back up yes but I'm quite sure everyone thought there was a massive gulf in class between the two and Coles' absence would hurt a lot more than it has. The selectors get credit for blooding him. And we're lucky he's stepped up.
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@shark said in All Blacks v France Test 3:
I'm just bloody stunned by how thin we are two full seasons after a RWC. Losing half a dozen all timey greats was never goin to be easy to recover from but there was depth at the time at 10, in midfield and at loose head prop but now we're thin as fuck and even worse when it comes to combinations involving those positions plus in the loose forwards. We've had something like 30 tests since the last RWC yet where are the proven loose forwards after Reado (also aging) and a bit of depth at 7? Kaino was never gonna make another RWC cycle yet we don't have a clear successor at 6. Squire is close but didn't cover himself in glory last week. No quality 8 back up either. We're lucky at hooker that Taylor has really stepped up in Coles' absence of that'd be another problem position. Back up props are an issue also with Faumuina and Crockett gone. Massive stroke of luck that Karl T has come outta nowhere or we'd be in all sorts. And Ofa ain't a long term solution. At lock we have a stunning top trio when fit and two world class half-backs. No dramas in the outside backs aside from settling on a top combination. Midfield is messy. We've had plenty of unavailability for various reasons but at times SBW and Crotty have looked good together and also Crotty and ALB in 2016. But I don't think SBW is a certainty to make it to the RWC and that leaves us really scratching unless we bring another grunty AND rounded midfielder in (this isn't Laumape) and give him a dozen games so we have someone to compliment Crotty and ALB. At 10 we need now to give Mo'unga minutes and as many as possible. D Mac isnt the back up option there, but could be a third option as a utility come RWC time with another Super Rugby season under his belt.
Paragraphs please. I simply cannot be bothered reading text like that on my phone.
@chester-draws said in All Blacks v France Test 3:
@shark said in All Blacks v France Test 3:
I'm just bloody stunned by how thin we are two full seasons after a RWC. Losing half a dozen all timey greats was never goin to be easy to recover from but there was depth at the time at 10, in midfield and at loose head prop but now we're thin as fuck and even worse when it comes to combinations involving those positions plus in the loose forwards. We've had something like 30 tests since the last RWC yet where are the proven loose forwards after Reado (also aging) and a bit of depth at 7? Kaino was never gonna make another RWC cycle yet we don't have a clear successor at 6. Squire is close but didn't cover himself in glory last week. No quality 8 back up either. We're lucky at hooker that Taylor has really stepped up in Coles' absence of that'd be another problem position. Back up props are an issue also with Faumuina and Crockett gone. Massive stroke of luck that Karl T has come outta nowhere or we'd be in all sorts. And Ofa ain't a long term solution. At lock we have a stunning top trio when fit and two world class half-backs. No dramas in the outside backs aside from settling on a top combination. Midfield is messy. We've had plenty of unavailability for various reasons but at times SBW and Crotty have looked good together and also Crotty and ALB in 2016. But I don't think SBW is a certainty to make it to the RWC and that leaves us really scratching unless we bring another grunty AND rounded midfielder in (this isn't Laumape) and give him a dozen games so we have someone to compliment Crotty and ALB. At 10 we need now to give Mo'unga minutes and as many as possible. D Mac isnt the back up option there, but could be a third option as a utility come RWC time with another Super Rugby season under his belt.
Paragraphs please. I simply cannot be bothered reading text like that on my phone.
Umm nah.
