All Blacks v Springboks
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@stargazer said in All Blacks v Springboks:
@antipodean said in All Blacks v Springboks:
Why are people saying "if we'd started Mo'unga"? Did they not watch his first test start?
Probably because a Mo'unga-BB 10 - 15 combo could have worked better than the BB-JB combo?
I'd never have started Mo'unga in this game but I'd have preferred him on the bench so that BB could drop back to 15 in the second half and RM could play at first five-eighth.
Would Mo’unga have taken over the kicking? DMac and JB are better kickers than BB, and even with BB having a particularly bad night with the boot Read didn’t give the ball to anyone else.
That was the most inexplicable thing to me, where was the captaincy to adjust when something was going wrong?
@kirwan said in All Blacks v Springboks:
@stargazer said in All Blacks v Springboks:
@antipodean said in All Blacks v Springboks:
Why are people saying "if we'd started Mo'unga"? Did they not watch his first test start?
Probably because a Mo'unga-BB 10 - 15 combo could have worked better than the BB-JB combo?
I'd never have started Mo'unga in this game but I'd have preferred him on the bench so that BB could drop back to 15 in the second half and RM could play at first five-eighth.
Would Mo’unga have taken over the kicking? DMac and JB are better kickers than BB, and even with BB having a particularly bad night with the boot Read didn’t give the ball to anyone else.
That was the most inexplicable thing to me, where was the captaincy to adjust when something was going wrong?
That was I didn't get. It became pretty obvious early on BB was having a shocker from the tee, so why not change the kicker? DMac - or hell even get the pimply giraffe to earn his keep FFS!
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A few things learnt
1 BBBR is definetly missed
2 some of the younger players still have a bit of learning to do in high pressure games (Goodhue the exception)
3 high risk fast paced rugby is great but it is exactly that and some times the ball just wont bounce your way (literally) and sometimes the game may need to be slowed down
4 Beaden Barrett will miss a few kicks but we don't lose too many tests when he is on the park
5 Ben Smith is playing his best rugby, shame he seemed to be under utilised in the second half@nevorian said in All Blacks v Springboks:
A few things learnt
4 Beaden Barrett will miss a few kicks but we don't lose too many tests when he is on the park
Depends what you mean by "many".
His win-loss ratio (when starting) is way below Cruden's and Carter's.
Since he's been our starting 1st-5 we've lost to Ireland, not won the Lions series, struggled against Scotland and now lost at home to the Boks. Plus some other losses of less concern.
So we don't lose "many" but an increasing amount of "few".
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@nevorian said in All Blacks v Springboks:
A few things learnt
4 Beaden Barrett will miss a few kicks but we don't lose too many tests when he is on the park
Depends what you mean by "many".
His win-loss ratio (when starting) is way below Cruden's and Carter's.
Since he's been our starting 1st-5 we've lost to Ireland, not won the Lions series, struggled against Scotland and now lost at home to the Boks. Plus some other losses of less concern.
So we don't lose "many" but an increasing amount of "few".
@chester-draws how many due to his kicking?
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@mokey said in All Blacks v Springboks:
Ugh. Stupid media. Nigel didn't cost us the game. Us gifting the Boks at least two of their tries, BB not being able to hit the side of a barn with his goalkicking, and the lack of cool heads embracing the perfect setup for a DMac droppie lost us the game.
technically, he did hit the side of the barn, twice, the ball just bounced away from the entrance
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v Springboks:
technically, he did hit the side of the barn, twice, the ball just bounced away from the entrance
Pity It was the wrong fuckin' barn....:smiling_face_with_sunglasses:
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@akan004 said in All Blacks v Springboks:
@no-quarter said in All Blacks v Springboks:
Judging by that team you'd think the Boks beat us by 50 points.
The usual media overreaction. Also not buying into this talk from many that we were beaten by a better team on the day. We beat ourselves really with sheer stupidity at times and of course Beauden's misses.
I must’ve missed the part when there were 30 guys in black jersey’s on the park.
@act-crusader said in All Blacks v Springboks:
@akan004 said in All Blacks v Springboks:
@no-quarter said in All Blacks v Springboks:
Judging by that team you'd think the Boks beat us by 50 points.
The usual media overreaction. Also not buying into this talk from many that we were beaten by a better team on the day. We beat ourselves really with sheer stupidity at times and of course Beauden's misses.
I must’ve missed the part when there were 30 guys in black jersey’s on the park.
Might be the part where we gifted them 2 tries?
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@kirwan said in All Blacks v Springboks:
@stargazer said in All Blacks v Springboks:
@antipodean said in All Blacks v Springboks:
Why are people saying "if we'd started Mo'unga"? Did they not watch his first test start?
Probably because a Mo'unga-BB 10 - 15 combo could have worked better than the BB-JB combo?
I'd never have started Mo'unga in this game but I'd have preferred him on the bench so that BB could drop back to 15 in the second half and RM could play at first five-eighth.
Would Mo’unga have taken over the kicking? DMac and JB are better kickers than BB, and even with BB having a particularly bad night with the boot Read didn’t give the ball to anyone else.
That was the most inexplicable thing to me, where was the captaincy to adjust when something was going wrong?
That was I didn't get. It became pretty obvious early on BB was having a shocker from the tee, so why not change the kicker? DMac - or hell even get the pimply giraffe to earn his keep FFS!
@shadowtrooper said in All Blacks v Springboks:
That was I didn't get. It became pretty obvious early on BB was having a shocker from the tee, so why not change the kicker? DMac - or hell even get the pimply giraffe to earn his keep FFS!
This was the real issue. You wonder what thought Read gave to changing the kicker.
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@shadowtrooper said in All Blacks v Springboks:
That was I didn't get. It became pretty obvious early on BB was having a shocker from the tee, so why not change the kicker? DMac - or hell even get the pimply giraffe to earn his keep FFS!
This was the real issue. You wonder what thought Read gave to changing the kicker.
@victor-meldrew by all accounts the kicking thing was discussed, and agreed among the leadership group to stay as it was...also apparently Read said it was a decison of the 'drivers' (assume TJP & BB) to determine if they should go for the DG or the overlap we had...
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@victor-meldrew by all accounts the kicking thing was discussed, and agreed among the leadership group to stay as it was...also apparently Read said it was a decison of the 'drivers' (assume TJP & BB) to determine if they should go for the DG or the overlap we had...
@taniwharugby Can understand not going for a DG - that makes sense as that approach has worked in the past. Think they need a more flexible approach to the goal-kicking though.
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@shadowtrooper said in All Blacks v Springboks:
That was I didn't get. It became pretty obvious early on BB was having a shocker from the tee, so why not change the kicker? DMac - or hell even get the pimply giraffe to earn his keep FFS!
This was the real issue. You wonder what thought Read gave to changing the kicker.
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Springboks:
@shadowtrooper said in All Blacks v Springboks:
That was I didn't get. It became pretty obvious early on BB was having a shocker from the tee, so why not change the kicker? DMac - or hell even get the pimply giraffe to earn his keep FFS!
This was the real issue. You wonder what thought Read gave to changing the kicker.
Does Read actually have any input into this in reality though? I would think it is decided between the kickers.
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@taniwharugby Can understand not going for a DG - that makes sense as that approach has worked in the past. Think they need a more flexible approach to the goal-kicking though.
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Springboks:
@taniwharugby Can understand not going for a DG - that makes sense as that approach has worked in the past. Think they need a more flexible approach to the goal-kicking though.
We had multiple opportunities to go for the DG before the full time hooter sounded, meaning even if we missed we'd get the ball back.
I think from that position it was a braindead decision to go for the try. And I say try, because we were highly unlikely to get a penalty go our way at that stage unless it was an extremely obvious one.
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Regarding Barrett's goal kicking costing the ABs a test, the only other game I can think of is the 3rd test vs the Lions. He kicked 2/4. Ironically, BB was 6/6 in the 1st test and 7/10 in the 2nd test in that series. That sums up his inconsistency.
The Chicago loss can't be blamed on goal kicking. Outplayed and outscored in tries.
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Regarding Barrett's goal kicking costing the ABs a test, the only other game I can think of is the 3rd test vs the Lions. He kicked 2/4. Ironically, BB was 6/6 in the 1st test and 7/10 in the 2nd test in that series. That sums up his inconsistency.
The Chicago loss can't be blamed on goal kicking. Outplayed and outscored in tries.
@bovidae said in All Blacks v Springboks:
Regarding Barrett's goal kicking costing the ABs a test, the only other game I can think of is the 3rd test vs the Lions. He kicked 2/4. Ironically, BB was 6/6 in the 1st test and 7/10 in the 2nd test in that series. That sums up his inconsistency.
The Chicago loss can't be blamed on goal kicking. Outplayed and outscored in tries.
He's had a couple of shockers for the Hurricanes as well hasn't he?
2015 final springs to mind
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Regarding Barrett's goal kicking costing the ABs a test, the only other game I can think of is the 3rd test vs the Lions. He kicked 2/4. Ironically, BB was 6/6 in the 1st test and 7/10 in the 2nd test in that series. That sums up his inconsistency.
The Chicago loss can't be blamed on goal kicking. Outplayed and outscored in tries.
@bovidae said in All Blacks v Springboks:
The Chicago loss can't be blamed on goal kicking. Outplayed and outscored in tries.
Agreed. A confluence of issues; hubris, injuries, opponent playing very well. Kicking was the least of our issues.
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So we are treating this somewhat as an imperfect storm? Took quite a few things going wrong to end up here. Or quite a bit going right if you take a SA perspective!
Brings some spice to it all, gives us areas to really focus on... esp what plans B, C etc should involve. A bit crazy when we genuinely think it's easier to score a try than build pressure for a penalty or take a droppie.
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I'm not too fussed at the result as it was a cracking test and the reason I love rugby. Hard tackling commitment and passion shown by both teams.
I wouldn't change much apart from working our why BB is a bit hopeless under proper pressure.
He carves up when we are dominating and looks the reason he is two times WPOTY but under proper pressure he hasn't stood up and taken control like Dan would have once he learnt to deal with pressure
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@bovidae said in All Blacks v Springboks:
Regarding Barrett's goal kicking costing the ABs a test, the only other game I can think of is the 3rd test vs the Lions. He kicked 2/4. Ironically, BB was 6/6 in the 1st test and 7/10 in the 2nd test in that series. That sums up his inconsistency.
The Chicago loss can't be blamed on goal kicking. Outplayed and outscored in tries.
He's had a couple of shockers for the Hurricanes as well hasn't he?
2015 final springs to mind
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So we are treating this somewhat as an imperfect storm? Took quite a few things going wrong to end up here. Or quite a bit going right if you take a SA perspective!
Brings some spice to it all, gives us areas to really focus on... esp what plans B, C etc should involve. A bit crazy when we genuinely think it's easier to score a try than build pressure for a penalty or take a droppie.
@paekakboyz perfect storm or an anomoly...looking at the stats, we had them everywhere but the scoreboard, when usually it is us that win with less ball and territory.
Certainly makes the next game against them much, much more intriguing.
This game has given them self belief, but you could argue we are still a much better team, so will they be able to replicate thier accuracy and intensity on defence, while also expecting us to crumble under the pressure again, and BB have another off night with the boot.
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@sammyc Maybe Westpac stadium is his bogey kicking ground then?
to his credit on Saturday he did kick a pearler from the sideline which many other kickers would have struggled with
@nevorian said in All Blacks v Springboks:
@sammyc Maybe Westpac stadium is his bogey kicking ground then?
to his credit on Saturday he did kick a pearler from the sideline which many other kickers would have struggled with
No, he often kicks sideline pearlers at Westpac. Keeping them low in the wind, sometimes even fading right instead of hooking left.
He just isn't consistent. He can kick the difficult ones but miss the easier ones. This observation is mostly based on just a dataset of conversions.
It's harder to get an idea how he is with his penalties beyond the 22m as the Canes just don't take them.
The issue, for me, with an inconsistent kicker is; does it effect the tactical decisions by the captain on whether to go for the posts or plug the corners. Both the Canes and the All Blacks are fairly one dimensional and always turn down the 3. So, i don't think it is a tactical quandry for the captain. But, i'm not that comfortable with this approach. But maybe the game has moved ahead of my 1980/90s test match upbringing.
As for Berauden's techique. I do wonder if his Caketin approach means he doesn't have a consistent swing. Does he alter his desired trajectory (and even fade) often for the wind. This has been mentioned before as a theory on this site by someone else.
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@paekakboyz perfect storm or an anomoly...looking at the stats, we had them everywhere but the scoreboard, when usually it is us that win with less ball and territory.
Certainly makes the next game against them much, much more intriguing.
This game has given them self belief, but you could argue we are still a much better team, so will they be able to replicate thier accuracy and intensity on defence, while also expecting us to crumble under the pressure again, and BB have another off night with the boot.
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v Springboks:
This game has given them self belief, but you could argue we are still a much better team, so will they be able to replicate thier accuracy and intensity on defence, while also expecting us to crumble under the pressure again, and BB have another off night with the boot.
Loftus means penalties from 60 m are on the cards. You know SA will take them so we have to expect more long range attempts at goal.
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@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v Springboks:
This game has given them self belief, but you could argue we are still a much better team, so will they be able to replicate thier accuracy and intensity on defence, while also expecting us to crumble under the pressure again, and BB have another off night with the boot.
Loftus means penalties from 60 m are on the cards. You know SA will take them so we have to expect more long range attempts at goal.
