European Club Rugby
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Watching Munster v Gloucester on C4 here in the UK.
Very entertaining and competitive match which was spoiled with a ludicrous yellow card for clearing out at the ruck against Gloucester.
If this is a mandate and a precedent, then the breakdown is going to be very interesting this season.
Then Cipriani has an 'I don't want to tackle' moment, ends up lazily making contact with the head and gets a red.
Game over now.
Munster will murder them in the second half.
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@derm-mccrum said in NH club rugby:
The PRO14 now has just 1 ex-AB player in its Championship - Alby Mathewson on a short term until end-December. In contrast, the Premiership has 9 full-time ex-ABs, and Top 14 has 23.
PRO14 numbers of Kiwi-born/raised players have been falling over the last while:
Player Transfers for 2018/19 in PRO14:
Benetton had 1 in, 3 out. Total 3 inc 1 RITQ*
Cardiff had 0 in and 1 out - total 4 inc 1 PWQ**
Connacht had 0 in and 3 out - total 3 inc 1PIQ 1 RIQ
Dragons had 1 in and 1 out - total 1
Edinburgh 1 in and 1 out - total 2 - 1 PSQ
Glasgow 0 in and 1 out - total 3
Leinster had 0 in and 1 out - total 3 inc 1 PIQ
Munster have 1 temp in and 0 out - total 3 inc Carbery PIQ
Ospreys 0 in and 2 out - total 1 - Tonga IQ
Scarlets 2 in and 0 out - total 4 inc 2 PWQ
Ulster 0 in and 1 out - total 2 PIQ
Zebre 1 in and 1 out - total 1 PITQTotal 7 in & 15 out for 2018/19.
10 in, 14 out for 2017/18.
17 in, 19 out in 2016/17.Some of the above transfers are players moving between PRO14 teams, and some coming from French or English teams. Others come from SR or ITM squads.
Current total NZ-born/raised 30 with 11 of them PQ - about 4.6% of total players inc academies.
- RQ means residency-qualified
**PQ means grand-/parent qualified.
I may have got a couple of Samoan/Tongan/Fijian players wrong re their origins and where they grew up but where identified have included them if they grew up in NZ.
I would be very careful about trying to draw conclusions from this about which league is better. Or which league is actively promoting local players.
The fact is there is a shit tonne more money in rugby in France then the UK and Ireland. So it's just as likely they would love to stack their teams. But they just can't compete financially.
@mooshld said in NH club rugby:
@derm-mccrum said in NH club rugby:
The PRO14 now has just 1 ex-AB player in its Championship - Alby Mathewson on a short term until end-December. In contrast, the Premiership has 9 full-time ex-ABs, and Top 14 has 23.
PRO14 numbers of Kiwi-born/raised players have been falling over the last while:
Player Transfers for 2018/19 in PRO14:
Benetton had 1 in, 3 out. Total 3 inc 1 RITQ*
Cardiff had 0 in and 1 out - total 4 inc 1 PWQ**
Connacht had 0 in and 3 out - total 3 inc 1PIQ 1 RIQ
Dragons had 1 in and 1 out - total 1
Edinburgh 1 in and 1 out - total 2 - 1 PSQ
Glasgow 0 in and 1 out - total 3
Leinster had 0 in and 1 out - total 3 inc 1 PIQ
Munster have 1 temp in and 0 out - total 3 inc Carbery PIQ
Ospreys 0 in and 2 out - total 1 - Tonga IQ
Scarlets 2 in and 0 out - total 4 inc 2 PWQ
Ulster 0 in and 1 out - total 2 PIQ
Zebre 1 in and 1 out - total 1 PITQTotal 7 in & 15 out for 2018/19.
10 in, 14 out for 2017/18.
17 in, 19 out in 2016/17.Some of the above transfers are players moving between PRO14 teams, and some coming from French or English teams. Others come from SR or ITM squads.
Current total NZ-born/raised 30 with 11 of them PQ - about 4.6% of total players inc academies.
- RQ means residency-qualified
**PQ means grand-/parent qualified.
I may have got a couple of Samoan/Tongan/Fijian players wrong re their origins and where they grew up but where identified have included them if they grew up in NZ.
I would be very careful about trying to draw conclusions from this about which league is better. Or which league is actively promoting local players.
The fact is there is a shit tonne more money in rugby in France then the UK and Ireland. So it's just as likely they would love to stack their teams. But they just can't compete financially.
So it’s just as likely they would like to stack their teams?
Says who? What the smaller unions have learnt is that investing in domestic pathway pays off. And splurging a shit-load of money on an ex-AB or Saffer doesn’t necessarily pay off. Glaring example, Piutau at Ulster. On the other hand, a stalwart like Hayden Triggs or Louis Ludik costs a lot less but pays off in spades with commitment, loyalty and helping to develop younger players - whilst keeping the numbers low.
- RQ means residency-qualified
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@mooshld said in NH club rugby:
@derm-mccrum said in NH club rugby:
The PRO14 now has just 1 ex-AB player in its Championship - Alby Mathewson on a short term until end-December. In contrast, the Premiership has 9 full-time ex-ABs, and Top 14 has 23.
PRO14 numbers of Kiwi-born/raised players have been falling over the last while:
Player Transfers for 2018/19 in PRO14:
Benetton had 1 in, 3 out. Total 3 inc 1 RITQ*
Cardiff had 0 in and 1 out - total 4 inc 1 PWQ**
Connacht had 0 in and 3 out - total 3 inc 1PIQ 1 RIQ
Dragons had 1 in and 1 out - total 1
Edinburgh 1 in and 1 out - total 2 - 1 PSQ
Glasgow 0 in and 1 out - total 3
Leinster had 0 in and 1 out - total 3 inc 1 PIQ
Munster have 1 temp in and 0 out - total 3 inc Carbery PIQ
Ospreys 0 in and 2 out - total 1 - Tonga IQ
Scarlets 2 in and 0 out - total 4 inc 2 PWQ
Ulster 0 in and 1 out - total 2 PIQ
Zebre 1 in and 1 out - total 1 PITQTotal 7 in & 15 out for 2018/19.
10 in, 14 out for 2017/18.
17 in, 19 out in 2016/17.Some of the above transfers are players moving between PRO14 teams, and some coming from French or English teams. Others come from SR or ITM squads.
Current total NZ-born/raised 30 with 11 of them PQ - about 4.6% of total players inc academies.
- RQ means residency-qualified
**PQ means grand-/parent qualified.
I may have got a couple of Samoan/Tongan/Fijian players wrong re their origins and where they grew up but where identified have included them if they grew up in NZ.
I would be very careful about trying to draw conclusions from this about which league is better. Or which league is actively promoting local players.
The fact is there is a shit tonne more money in rugby in France then the UK and Ireland. So it's just as likely they would love to stack their teams. But they just can't compete financially.
So it’s just as likely they would like to stack their teams?
Says who? What the smaller unions have learnt is that investing in domestic pathway pays off. And splurging a shit-load of money on an ex-AB or Saffer doesn’t necessarily pay off. Glaring example, Piutau at Ulster. On the other hand, a stalwart like Hayden Triggs or Louis Ludik costs a lot less but pays off in spades with commitment, loyalty and helping to develop younger players - whilst keeping the numbers low.
@derm-mccrum said in NH club rugby:
@mooshld said in NH club rugby:
@derm-mccrum said in NH club rugby:
The PRO14 now has just 1 ex-AB player in its Championship - Alby Mathewson on a short term until end-December. In contrast, the Premiership has 9 full-time ex-ABs, and Top 14 has 23.
PRO14 numbers of Kiwi-born/raised players have been falling over the last while:
Player Transfers for 2018/19 in PRO14:
Benetton had 1 in, 3 out. Total 3 inc 1 RITQ*
Cardiff had 0 in and 1 out - total 4 inc 1 PWQ**
Connacht had 0 in and 3 out - total 3 inc 1PIQ 1 RIQ
Dragons had 1 in and 1 out - total 1
Edinburgh 1 in and 1 out - total 2 - 1 PSQ
Glasgow 0 in and 1 out - total 3
Leinster had 0 in and 1 out - total 3 inc 1 PIQ
Munster have 1 temp in and 0 out - total 3 inc Carbery PIQ
Ospreys 0 in and 2 out - total 1 - Tonga IQ
Scarlets 2 in and 0 out - total 4 inc 2 PWQ
Ulster 0 in and 1 out - total 2 PIQ
Zebre 1 in and 1 out - total 1 PITQTotal 7 in & 15 out for 2018/19.
10 in, 14 out for 2017/18.
17 in, 19 out in 2016/17.Some of the above transfers are players moving between PRO14 teams, and some coming from French or English teams. Others come from SR or ITM squads.
Current total NZ-born/raised 30 with 11 of them PQ - about 4.6% of total players inc academies.
- RQ means residency-qualified
**PQ means grand-/parent qualified.
I may have got a couple of Samoan/Tongan/Fijian players wrong re their origins and where they grew up but where identified have included them if they grew up in NZ.
I would be very careful about trying to draw conclusions from this about which league is better. Or which league is actively promoting local players.
The fact is there is a shit tonne more money in rugby in France then the UK and Ireland. So it's just as likely they would love to stack their teams. But they just can't compete financially.
So it’s just as likely they would like to stack their teams?
Says who? What the smaller unions have learnt is that investing in domestic pathway pays off. And splurging a shit-load of money on an ex-AB or Saffer doesn’t necessarily pay off. Glaring example, Piutau at Ulster. On the other hand, a stalwart like Hayden Triggs or Louis Ludik costs a lot less but pays off in spades with commitment, loyalty and helping to develop younger players - whilst keeping the numbers low.
I agree that youth development is key. It has always been the way in NZ. Clubs in the pro era just don't have the patience to build a team from the grass roots up
- RQ means residency-qualified
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Toulouse vs Leinster was a cracker. Toulouse have totally reinvented their style, and it’s very easy on the eye.
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@machpants said in NH club rugby:
@siam Check out Cipriani's Red, utterly ridiculous
I agree, but listen to the comms and they're saying "only one outcome here".
Pivac has by all accounts gone on record saying it's all getting too soft in the tackle and I find myself agreeing with him.
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@siam Five weeks holiday for a great tackle? Absurd.
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absolutely Ridiculous..!
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On the Kaino tackle. Meh, he deliberately went high and if he did or didn't hit him in the chin is an argument of millimetres. His own risky decision.
The Cipriani tackle. Jesus christ, hes trying to run away from it and the ball carrier drives into his shoulder . To avoid 'the letter of the law' mantra that gets chanted at times like these I suppose Cipriani should have changed his mind at the last moment and attempted to get himself into a tackling position , the outcome of which would have been a probable head clash .
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On the Kaino tackle. Meh, he deliberately went high and if he did or didn't hit him in the chin is an argument of millimetres. His own risky decision.
The Cipriani tackle. Jesus christ, hes trying to run away from it and the ball carrier drives into his shoulder . To avoid 'the letter of the law' mantra that gets chanted at times like these I suppose Cipriani should have changed his mind at the last moment and attempted to get himself into a tackling position , the outcome of which would have been a probable head clash .
@rapido said in NH club rugby:
On the Kaino tackle. Meh, he deliberately went high and if he did or didn't hit him in the chin is an argument of millimetres. His own risky decision.
He starts low against a tall man. As he rises his opponent drops. I've no issue with the penalty, but the length of the suspension is absurd.
Re; Cipriani's. Well, nothing can excuse that decision. That's farcical.
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Also, this seems the best place for this as I can't find the mega Hammetteur thread. @Chris-B 's bestie comes out looking like, well, how we expect him to come out looking.
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/truth-player-revolt-cardiff-blues-15273628
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Anyone have a working link of the Cipriani tackle? Mine were all geo blocked.
(And I gave up after three links)
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the Kaino one is not too disilimar to the Jerry Collins one on Colin Charvis, borderline at the time, card all day now.
THe Cipriani one is tougher, he made no effort to wrap the arm, had he done that, may have got away with a pen only purely on the shoulder to head contact, but a RC, seriously?
They need somethign in between a Yellow and Red (guy goes off for say 15 and someone else comes on when his time is up) some of them are pathetic and ruin the game, I wouldnt want to pay to watch a game 15 v 14 due to something like that.
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what. the. actual. fuck?
Seriously, what is becoming of rugby? This is not a "back in my day" rant, this is a "how is that ever a red card?" It shouldn't have even been a yellow! Cipriani doesn't even want to be there, let alone trying to smack the guy with a shoulder, he essentially stands there and the tackled player runs in to his shoulder face first, ably assisted by the first tackler.
The current interpretations of what constitutes a red or a yellow card are a deadset joke. And i have gone from one of those "cards don't ruin games" guys to "the refs are being forced to ruin games with cards".
Are these regulations resulting in less concussions? or just more cards?
I can't believe it's come to this, but i prefer the League system, where you effectively have to kill someone to get red carded. Rugby has lost the plot.
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I am at the stage,where once a Red Card is handed out,the first thing I think about is the good money that’s been paid out to be entertained and having been a game where a red card was handed out in the Wales v France semi final in 2011 the feeling just goes absolutely flat it’s such a momentum killer,in the odd case a 14 man team rallies ,but in most cases the result is inevitable.
Just put the bloody infraction on report especially if there are too many variables involved.
In a case where’s it’s out and out foul play,sure then dish out a red card, I get that...But in the case of heavy shots,I think common sence should prevail..what defines rugby is it’s contestable nature,at the minute I believe many of the cards are too heavily stacked with the team in possession. -
what. the. actual. fuck?
Seriously, what is becoming of rugby? This is not a "back in my day" rant, this is a "how is that ever a red card?" It shouldn't have even been a yellow! Cipriani doesn't even want to be there, let alone trying to smack the guy with a shoulder, he essentially stands there and the tackled player runs in to his shoulder face first, ably assisted by the first tackler.
The current interpretations of what constitutes a red or a yellow card are a deadset joke. And i have gone from one of those "cards don't ruin games" guys to "the refs are being forced to ruin games with cards".
Are these regulations resulting in less concussions? or just more cards?
I can't believe it's come to this, but i prefer the League system, where you effectively have to kill someone to get red carded. Rugby has lost the plot.
@mariner4life I like all of that up to the league stuff - they lose the plot the other way ... somewhere in between the two - basically where rugby used to be would be good for me.
Also, I wouldn't mind if they institute @taniwharugby's idea of 15 minutes in the bin and then replaced by another player for a red card. I
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@mooshld said in NH club rugby:
@derm-mccrum said in NH club rugby:
The PRO14 now has just 1 ex-AB player in its Championship - Alby Mathewson on a short term until end-December. In contrast, the Premiership has 9 full-time ex-ABs, and Top 14 has 23.
PRO14 numbers of Kiwi-born/raised players have been falling over the last while:
Player Transfers for 2018/19 in PRO14:
Benetton had 1 in, 3 out. Total 3 inc 1 RITQ*
Cardiff had 0 in and 1 out - total 4 inc 1 PWQ**
Connacht had 0 in and 3 out - total 3 inc 1PIQ 1 RIQ
Dragons had 1 in and 1 out - total 1
Edinburgh 1 in and 1 out - total 2 - 1 PSQ
Glasgow 0 in and 1 out - total 3
Leinster had 0 in and 1 out - total 3 inc 1 PIQ
Munster have 1 temp in and 0 out - total 3 inc Carbery PIQ
Ospreys 0 in and 2 out - total 1 - Tonga IQ
Scarlets 2 in and 0 out - total 4 inc 2 PWQ
Ulster 0 in and 1 out - total 2 PIQ
Zebre 1 in and 1 out - total 1 PITQTotal 7 in & 15 out for 2018/19.
10 in, 14 out for 2017/18.
17 in, 19 out in 2016/17.Some of the above transfers are players moving between PRO14 teams, and some coming from French or English teams. Others come from SR or ITM squads.
Current total NZ-born/raised 30 with 11 of them PQ - about 4.6% of total players inc academies.
- RQ means residency-qualified
**PQ means grand-/parent qualified.
I may have got a couple of Samoan/Tongan/Fijian players wrong re their origins and where they grew up but where identified have included them if they grew up in NZ.
I would be very careful about trying to draw conclusions from this about which league is better. Or which league is actively promoting local players.
The fact is there is a shit tonne more money in rugby in France then the UK and Ireland. So it's just as likely they would love to stack their teams. But they just can't compete financially.
So it’s just as likely they would like to stack their teams?
Says who? What the smaller unions have learnt is that investing in domestic pathway pays off. And splurging a shit-load of money on an ex-AB or Saffer doesn’t necessarily pay off. Glaring example, Piutau at Ulster. On the other hand, a stalwart like Hayden Triggs or Louis Ludik costs a lot less but pays off in spades with commitment, loyalty and helping to develop younger players - whilst keeping the numbers low.
@derm-mccrum said in NH club rugby:
@mooshld said in NH club rugby:
@derm-mccrum said in NH club rugby:
The PRO14 now has just 1 ex-AB player in its Championship - Alby Mathewson on a short term until end-December. In contrast, the Premiership has 9 full-time ex-ABs, and Top 14 has 23.
PRO14 numbers of Kiwi-born/raised players have been falling over the last while:
Player Transfers for 2018/19 in PRO14:
Benetton had 1 in, 3 out. Total 3 inc 1 RITQ*
Cardiff had 0 in and 1 out - total 4 inc 1 PWQ**
Connacht had 0 in and 3 out - total 3 inc 1PIQ 1 RIQ
Dragons had 1 in and 1 out - total 1
Edinburgh 1 in and 1 out - total 2 - 1 PSQ
Glasgow 0 in and 1 out - total 3
Leinster had 0 in and 1 out - total 3 inc 1 PIQ
Munster have 1 temp in and 0 out - total 3 inc Carbery PIQ
Ospreys 0 in and 2 out - total 1 - Tonga IQ
Scarlets 2 in and 0 out - total 4 inc 2 PWQ
Ulster 0 in and 1 out - total 2 PIQ
Zebre 1 in and 1 out - total 1 PITQTotal 7 in & 15 out for 2018/19.
10 in, 14 out for 2017/18.
17 in, 19 out in 2016/17.Some of the above transfers are players moving between PRO14 teams, and some coming from French or English teams. Others come from SR or ITM squads.
Current total NZ-born/raised 30 with 11 of them PQ - about 4.6% of total players inc academies.
- RQ means residency-qualified
**PQ means grand-/parent qualified.
I may have got a couple of Samoan/Tongan/Fijian players wrong re their origins and where they grew up but where identified have included them if they grew up in NZ.
I would be very careful about trying to draw conclusions from this about which league is better. Or which league is actively promoting local players.
The fact is there is a shit tonne more money in rugby in France then the UK and Ireland. So it's just as likely they would love to stack their teams. But they just can't compete financially.
So it’s just as likely they would like to stack their teams?
Says who? What the smaller unions have learnt is that investing in domestic pathway pays off. And splurging a shit-load of money on an ex-AB or Saffer doesn’t necessarily pay off. Glaring example, Piutau at Ulster. On the other hand, a stalwart like Hayden Triggs or Louis Ludik costs a lot less but pays off in spades with commitment, loyalty and helping to develop younger players - whilst keeping the numbers low.
I am saying your data could assert both possible outcomes. I rather in-eloquently suggested that both cases are equally possible.
- They would love to stack their teams with expat talent.
- They have made a conscious decision to not use expat talent.
The raw data about player numbers doesn't prove either of these hypothesis to be true. Because we know that the French can out compete them financially when it comes to marquee players. So both conclusions are as I put it "Just as likely"
We would all love to believe that the smaller unions are being fiscally responsible. And maybe they are, but not by their own choice.
- RQ means residency-qualified
