Ireland vs All Blacks (2018)
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@gt12 listening to RS and a couple of people (inc Miles Davis, so take that how you want) reckon its Mick Byrne we are missing more than Wayne Smith and his kicking skills.
While i agree to an extent, you wonder if he has taught someone (AS for example) how to kick to such a high standard, how can they be good when he is there, but poor when not?
A skill is learned and only forgotten or becomes less honed when not used, what has changed that our execution of this aspect has fallen by the way side so far?
@taniwharugby said in Ireland Vs All Blacks:
@gt12 listening to RS and a couple of people (inc Miles Davis, so take that how you want) reckon its Mick Byrne we are missing more than Wayne Smith and his kicking skills.
While i agree to an extent, you wonder if he has taught someone (AS for example) how to kick to such a high standard, how can they be good when he is there, but poor when not?
A skill is learned and only forgotten or becomes less honed when not used, what has changed that our execution of this aspect has fallen by the way side so far?
he's doing absolute wonders for the Wallaby skill level...
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@taniwharugby said in Ireland Vs All Blacks:
@gt12 listening to RS and a couple of people (inc Miles Davis, so take that how you want) reckon its Mick Byrne we are missing more than Wayne Smith and his kicking skills.
While i agree to an extent, you wonder if he has taught someone (AS for example) how to kick to such a high standard, how can they be good when he is there, but poor when not?
A skill is learned and only forgotten or becomes less honed when not used, what has changed that our execution of this aspect has fallen by the way side so far?
he's doing absolute wonders for the Wallaby skill level...
@mariner4life said in Ireland Vs All Blacks:
he's doing absolute wonders for the Wallaby skill level...
ha yeah I forgot to add that part too.
Outside of Byrne, the overall point about becoming shit at kicking is valid!
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@taniwharugby said in Ireland Vs All Blacks:
@gt12 listening to RS and a couple of people (inc Miles Davis, so take that how you want) reckon its Mick Byrne we are missing more than Wayne Smith and his kicking skills.
While i agree to an extent, you wonder if he has taught someone (AS for example) how to kick to such a high standard, how can they be good when he is there, but poor when not?
A skill is learned and only forgotten or becomes less honed when not used, what has changed that our execution of this aspect has fallen by the way side so far?
he's doing absolute wonders for the Wallaby skill level...
@mariner4life said in Ireland Vs All Blacks:
he's doing absolute wonders for the Wallaby skill level...
The Wallabies, and Foley in particular, have got the kick off mastered. Plenty of practice you see.
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@gt12 listening to RS and a couple of people (inc Miles Davis, so take that how you want) reckon its Mick Byrne we are missing more than Wayne Smith and his kicking skills.
While i agree to an extent, you wonder if he has taught someone (AS for example) how to kick to such a high standard, how can they be good when he is there, but poor when not?
A skill is learned and only forgotten or becomes less honed when not used, what has changed that our execution of this aspect has fallen by the way side so far?
@taniwharugby Southee and Boult fell off a cliff when Bond stopped coaching them, so I guess skills can be lost or drills not done as often when a particular coach moves on.
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Expertise usually comes from observation and feedback, so maintaining high level skill can be difficult when you no longer have the person there with the knowledge needed to identify the problem. I'd say, for that reason, someone like Mick the kick could be very valuable. My problem with him was that he wanted an assistant coach position (not his expertise), rather than a skills coach position, so he was leaving either way. I feel the same way about Cron, who I think is now an assistant coach working beyond his particular area of expertise (set piece). Personally, I think that these two should have been replaced with specialists, and we should have also found specialist forward coaches.
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Expertise usually comes from observation and feedback, so maintaining high level skill can be difficult when you no longer have the person there with the knowledge needed to identify the problem. I'd say, for that reason, someone like Mick the kick could be very valuable. My problem with him was that he wanted an assistant coach position (not his expertise), rather than a skills coach position, so he was leaving either way. I feel the same way about Cron, who I think is now an assistant coach working beyond his particular area of expertise (set piece). Personally, I think that these two should have been replaced with specialists, and we should have also found specialist forward coaches.
@gt12 I guess, I'd have thought kicking, while an important skill is largely a practice makes perfect type skill as opposed to a largely technique driven one like a bowling action or golf swing.
But I think our kicking game is a big part of the problem, wasnt it on the EOYT last year where they were pointing out we kick the ball more than any other team, despite the impression that we preferred to keep ball in hand.
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@gt12 I guess, I'd have thought kicking, while an important skill is largely a practice makes perfect type skill as opposed to a largely technique driven one like a bowling action or golf swing.
But I think our kicking game is a big part of the problem, wasnt it on the EOYT last year where they were pointing out we kick the ball more than any other team, despite the impression that we preferred to keep ball in hand.
@taniwharugby said in Ireland Vs All Blacks:
@gt12 I guess, I'd have thought kicking, while an important skill is largely a practice makes perfect type skill as opposed to a largely technique driven one like a bowling action or golf swing.
But I think our kicking game is a big part of the problem, wasnt it on the EOYT last year where they were pointing out we kick the ball more than any other team, despite the impression that we preferred to keep ball in hand.
Our kicking has been absolute rubbish in teh NH. I have been working my way through the England game, and we are absolute crap with distance or quality of kicks. No idea why. Hope to fark we're foxing, and flogging the team at training to lull others into a false sense of security.
I did enjoy the rugbypass article (https://www.rugbypass.com/news/analysis-did-the-all-blacks-bottle-it-and-shadow-box-against-ireland) and thought they made good points. Uncharacteristically crap - but not sure if foxign, or just shite.
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@taniwharugby said in Ireland Vs All Blacks:
@gt12 I guess, I'd have thought kicking, while an important skill is largely a practice makes perfect type skill as opposed to a largely technique driven one like a bowling action or golf swing.
But I think our kicking game is a big part of the problem, wasnt it on the EOYT last year where they were pointing out we kick the ball more than any other team, despite the impression that we preferred to keep ball in hand.
Our kicking has been absolute rubbish in teh NH. I have been working my way through the England game, and we are absolute crap with distance or quality of kicks. No idea why. Hope to fark we're foxing, and flogging the team at training to lull others into a false sense of security.
I did enjoy the rugbypass article (https://www.rugbypass.com/news/analysis-did-the-all-blacks-bottle-it-and-shadow-box-against-ireland) and thought they made good points. Uncharacteristically crap - but not sure if foxign, or just shite.
@nzzp yeah I heard an interview with Fox after the English game and he said that many of our kicks were too long/short, and/or poorly directed but sounded like they were part of the plan still, just poorly executed.
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Has anyone linked through to the 1014 breakdown of the game?
It's pretty interesting, and the highlight some of our problems really well, such as how we heavily rely on metres by 10/11/14/15. Even though those players contributed about half of our metres in this game, it was less than usual, indicating that Ireland still shut us down by comparison, which I found fascinating. It really suggests that we are over-reliant on systems to get Barrett, Ioane, Smith, and Dmac space, which seems pretty dangerous.
They also picked up on the fact that this game is the first in ages where we had a better tackle percentage (only just) and still lost, essentially showing that we have real problems ons attack.
They also highlight the absolute non contribution of Squire at 6, suggesting that position is a problem. So, the good news is that we all on here on the fern are not as far away as we thought.
One thing no one has mentioned is that A. Smith did not run. At all. No metres. This is huge because we average 6 metres per carry when our halfback runs, but he never sniped nor got in a support position to get metres. For those pushing TJP, this could be some support. Alternatively, it could mean we were trying some new things.
They also highlight that we didn't get any metres out of Karl, which I think I also wrote about in my review - we need those from LH because we aren't getting them from TH (btw, with about .25 metres per carry, Owen Franks was above the season average for the 3 jersey!).
They also do a good job of breaking down how the Irish defense appears to offer the kick in behind as an option, but due to systems (and players) it isn't half as much of an opportunity as it appears. This is seems a bit vital, because the ABs kept trying it, even after it wasn't working. They do suggest that it can be broken down (the space is there) just that we couldn't manipulate it accordingly. It's one thing that gives me hope, if we can devise plays for it.
Anyway, it's worth a watch:
@gt12 said in Ireland Vs All Blacks:
Has anyone linked through to the 1014 breakdown of the game?
It's pretty interesting, and the highlight some of our problems really well, such as how we heavily rely on metres by 10/11/14/15. Even though those players contributed about half of our metres in this game, it was less than usual, indicating that Ireland still shut us down by comparison, which I found fascinating. It really suggests that we are over-reliant on systems to get Barrett, Ioane, Smith, and Dmac space, which seems pretty dangerous.
They also picked up on the fact that this game is the first in ages where we had a better tackle percentage (only just) and still lost, essentially showing that we have real problems ons attack.
They also highlight the absolute non contribution of Squire at 6, suggesting that position is a problem. So, the good news is that we all on here on the fern are not as far away as we thought.
One thing no one has mentioned is that A. Smith did not run. At all. No metres. This is huge because we average 6 metres per carry when our halfback runs, but he never sniped nor got in a support position to get metres. For those pushing TJP, this could be some support. Alternatively, it could mean we were trying some new things.
They also highlight that we didn't get any metres out of Karl, which I think I also wrote about in my review - we need those from LH because we aren't getting them from TH (btw, with about .25 metres per carry, Owen Franks was above the season average for the 3 jersey!).
They also do a good job of breaking down how the Irish defense appears to offer the kick in behind as an option, but due to systems (and players) it isn't half as much of an opportunity as it appears. This is seems a bit vital, because the ABs kept trying it, even after it wasn't working. They do suggest that it can be broken down (the space is there) just that we couldn't manipulate it accordingly. It's one thing that gives me hope, if we can devise plays for it.
Anyway, it's worth a watch:
Yeah, decent watch, but as @ACT-Crusader & @gt12 & @Bovidae mention - some of the metrics/stats/conclusions are way over-reaching....
Having statistics for each position in the team... 1 through 15 on the x-axis... then drawing a "trend line" over that? That makes absolutely zero sense. -
Haven't watched it, but did they consider Ireland has improved more in the past 12 months than NZ?
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Haven't watched it, but did they consider Ireland has improved more in the past 12 months than NZ?
@mikethesnow said in Ireland Vs All Blacks:
Haven't watched it, but did they consider Ireland has improved more in the past 12 months than NZ?
That's way too "macro".
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A young YouTuber by the alias of Stellar created a really top quality VLOG to commemorate the Ireland vs New Zealand game this year. The raw emotion from everyone once they win really drives home how special this win was for Irish fans. It’s also a testament to how good New Zealand are.
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Is this game in danger of being over analysed? Also it's 'Rugbypass' and after their rating system for players I'm unsure if anything they come up with makes any sense.
@nepia I love stats and analysis, and often look at what they have available in American sports and wish we had that level of detail.
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@nepia I love stats and analysis, and often look at what they have available in American sports and wish we had that level of detail.
@taniwharugby said in Ireland Vs All Blacks:
@nepia I love stats and analysis, and often look at what they have available in American sports and wish we had that level of detail.
Oh me too - but this game seems to be have a bit done to death, which is to be expected given the nature of it.
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@nepia I love stats and analysis, and often look at what they have available in American sports and wish we had that level of detail.
@taniwharugby said in Ireland Vs All Blacks:
@nepia I love stats and analysis, and often look at what they have available in American sports and wish we had that level of detail.
American sports lend themselves to statistical analysis though, most especially Baseball and Football. Rugby is a far more fluid sport.
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@taniwharugby said in Ireland Vs All Blacks:
@nepia I love stats and analysis, and often look at what they have available in American sports and wish we had that level of detail.
Oh me too - but this game seems to be have a bit done to death, which is to be expected given the nature of it.
@nepia I guess the rarity of the way we lost has added to the analysis.
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@taniwharugby said in Ireland Vs All Blacks:
@nepia I love stats and analysis, and often look at what they have available in American sports and wish we had that level of detail.
American sports lend themselves to statistical analysis though, most especially Baseball and Football. Rugby is a far more fluid sport.
@mariner4life the ab coaches and I expect super coaches too have access to much more detailed stats than we see
