Black Caps 2019 Cricket World Cup Squad
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@MN5 didn't we do that for nearly 20 years through the 90s and 00s?
@mariner4life said in Black Caps 2019 Cricket World Cup Squad:
@MN5 didn't we do that for nearly 20 years through the 90s and 00s?
Well yes but they weren't all Cairnsies and Orams....there were a few Justin Vaughans too ( shudders )
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I would kind of prefer if we shelved the term ''all-rounder" in NZ or at least prefaced it in every case with "batting all-rounder" or "bowling all-rounder". At least it would force selectors/commentators/pundits to put one aspect of their game under the microscope.
In the 90's we had that - save for perhaps Harris and Cairns briefly in ~99-02. Now we've started this dangerous trend since the second coming of James Franklin where an all rounder is someone who can score 35 batting at 8 and bowl 4 overs in an ODI.
If the time comes where someone is a true all-rounder we will know about it.
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I would kind of prefer if we shelved the term ''all-rounder" in NZ or at least prefaced it in every case with "batting all-rounder" or "bowling all-rounder". At least it would force selectors/commentators/pundits to put one aspect of their game under the microscope.
In the 90's we had that - save for perhaps Harris and Cairns briefly in ~99-02. Now we've started this dangerous trend since the second coming of James Franklin where an all rounder is someone who can score 35 batting at 8 and bowl 4 overs in an ODI.
If the time comes where someone is a true all-rounder we will know about it.
@rotated said in Black Caps 2019 Cricket World Cup Squad:
I would kind of prefer if we shelved the term ''all-rounder" in NZ or at least prefaced it in every case with "batting all-rounder" or "bowling all-rounder". At least it would force selectors/commentators/pundits to put one aspect of their game under the microscope.
In the 90's we had that - save for perhaps Harris and Cairns briefly in ~99-02. Now we've started this dangerous trend since the second coming of James Franklin where an all rounder is someone who can score 35 batting at 8 and bowl 4 overs in an ODI.
If the time comes where someone is a true all-rounder we will know about it.
I'd class big Jake Oram a true all rounder although his batting fell away a bit.
Doug Bracewell suddenly falling into the Sobers/Kallis bracket on the back of finally getting one good score is an absolute joke. Goes the other way too with batsmen who could trundle down a few semi decent overs like McMillan/Astle/Styris....( actually the latter was pretty damn handy )
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Basically every all-rounder in the history of the game has been strong in one department and weaker in the other. Hadlee was a bowling all-rounder, Sobers and Kallis batting all-rounders. We've never had anyone with a 50+ batting average and a low 20s bowling average where you could not put a qualifier in front.
I do take the point though, using the term all-rounder can be a bit of a stretch for a lot of players. Bracewell is a bowler that can hit the ball, to be classed as an all-rounder he'd need to at least bat in the top 7 which would obviously be too high for him.
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Basically every all-rounder in the history of the game has been strong in one department and weaker in the other. Hadlee was a bowling all-rounder, Sobers and Kallis batting all-rounders. We've never had anyone with a 50+ batting average and a low 20s bowling average where you could not put a qualifier in front.
I do take the point though, using the term all-rounder can be a bit of a stretch for a lot of players. Bracewell is a bowler that can hit the ball, to be classed as an all-rounder he'd need to at least bat in the top 7 which would obviously be too high for him.
@No-Quarter said in Black Caps 2019 Cricket World Cup Squad:
Basically every all-rounder in the history of the game has been strong in one department and weaker in the other. Hadlee was a bowling all-rounder, Sobers and Kallis batting all-rounders. We've never had anyone with a 50+ batting average and a low 20s bowling average where you could not put a qualifier in front.
I do take the point though, using the term all-rounder can be a bit of a stretch for a lot of players. Bracewell is a bowler that can hit the ball, to be classed as an all-rounder he'd need to at least bat in the top 7 which would obviously be too high for him.
All of Hadlees contemporaries were bowling all rounders too.
I've got really happy memories of Bracewells efforts in Hobart so will always admire him but he was batting ahead of Southee, Boult and Sodhi in one test if I recall and all of them have actually scored a 50 at test level !
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Basically every all-rounder in the history of the game has been strong in one department and weaker in the other. Hadlee was a bowling all-rounder, Sobers and Kallis batting all-rounders. We've never had anyone with a 50+ batting average and a low 20s bowling average where you could not put a qualifier in front.
I do take the point though, using the term all-rounder can be a bit of a stretch for a lot of players. Bracewell is a bowler that can hit the ball, to be classed as an all-rounder he'd need to at least bat in the top 7 which would obviously be too high for him.
@No-Quarter said in Black Caps 2019 Cricket World Cup Squad:
I do take the point though, using the term all-rounder can be a bit of a stretch for a lot of players. Bracewell is a bowler that can hit the ball, to be classed as an all-rounder he'd need to at least bat in the top 7 which would obviously be too high for him.
Selected with the expectation of batting in the Top 7 (without massive concerns) is a good cut-off. The bowling equivalent would be selected as one of the top four bowlers. Players picked as bona-fide all rounders post mid-80s.
Tests: Vettori, Hadlee, Cairns, Oram , Thomson.
ODI: Harris, Cairns, Oram, Styris, Santner, Thomson, Hadlee (for his time).There is an argument for Dipak in the test arena, he was the kind of player who batted better the more responsibility he was given to the point where he batted at first-drop for Auckland regularly. Quick look says he batted in the top 7 over half his career (35 of 60 innings) for an average of 27. Those stats, as well as the lack of a hundred indicate more of a good 8 who had to bat up the order because we were so terrible through that stretch.
In ODIs there are a bunch of "maybe a 7, but really an 8" with Vettori, Franklin and probably Hadlee at the top of that class.
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Basically every all-rounder in the history of the game has been strong in one department and weaker in the other. Hadlee was a bowling all-rounder, Sobers and Kallis batting all-rounders. We've never had anyone with a 50+ batting average and a low 20s bowling average where you could not put a qualifier in front.
I do take the point though, using the term all-rounder can be a bit of a stretch for a lot of players. Bracewell is a bowler that can hit the ball, to be classed as an all-rounder he'd need to at least bat in the top 7 which would obviously be too high for him.
@No-Quarter Botham is harder than most to categorize. Look at those stats after seven games.
I'd say slightly better bowler than batsman who became a slightly better batsman than bowler - but, he basically got worse at both disciplines as time went on.
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@No-Quarter Botham is harder than most to categorize. Look at those stats after seven games.
I'd say slightly better bowler than batsman who became a slightly better batsman than bowler - but, he basically got worse at both disciplines as time went on.
@Chris-B said in Black Caps 2019 Cricket World Cup Squad:
@No-Quarter Botham is harder than most to categorize. Look at those stats after seven games.
I'd say slightly better bowler than batsman who became a slightly better batsman than bowler - but, he basically got worse at both disciplines as time went on.
If Botham retired at about 32 he would have been TGOAT. As it is he's still a great, but his stats maybe don't reflect this.
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@No-Quarter Botham is harder than most to categorize. Look at those stats after seven games.
I'd say slightly better bowler than batsman who became a slightly better batsman than bowler - but, he basically got worse at both disciplines as time went on.
@Chris-B said in Black Caps 2019 Cricket World Cup Squad:
@No-Quarter Botham is harder than most to categorize. Look at those stats after seven games.
Andrew Flintoff is a bit of Botham-lite. Arguably a more reliable batsman than bowler throughout his career, but all his greatest performances were with the ball and he still had a knack of being able to turn it on against the best batsman in the world even toward the end.
Shane Watson is slightly different than both in the sense he was remarkably consistent at being a cockwomble with both bat and ball in equal measure throughout his career.
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@No-Quarter said in Black Caps 2019 Cricket World Cup Squad:
I do take the point though, using the term all-rounder can be a bit of a stretch for a lot of players. Bracewell is a bowler that can hit the ball, to be classed as an all-rounder he'd need to at least bat in the top 7 which would obviously be too high for him.
Selected with the expectation of batting in the Top 7 (without massive concerns) is a good cut-off. The bowling equivalent would be selected as one of the top four bowlers. Players picked as bona-fide all rounders post mid-80s.
Tests: Vettori, Hadlee, Cairns, Oram , Thomson.
ODI: Harris, Cairns, Oram, Styris, Santner, Thomson, Hadlee (for his time).There is an argument for Dipak in the test arena, he was the kind of player who batted better the more responsibility he was given to the point where he batted at first-drop for Auckland regularly. Quick look says he batted in the top 7 over half his career (35 of 60 innings) for an average of 27. Those stats, as well as the lack of a hundred indicate more of a good 8 who had to bat up the order because we were so terrible through that stretch.
In ODIs there are a bunch of "maybe a 7, but really an 8" with Vettori, Franklin and probably Hadlee at the top of that class.
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@rotated Thompson's bowling average was 50!
After Hadlee, Cairns, Vettori and Oram the next most likely candidates would be Nash and CDG
@dogmeat said in Black Caps 2019 Cricket World Cup Squad:
@rotated Thompson's bowling average was 50!
After Hadlee, Cairns, Vettori and Oram the next most likely candidates would be Nash and CDG
Someone at Wikipedia made his stats look a bit better than they actually were....
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@rotated Thompson's bowling average was 50!
After Hadlee, Cairns, Vettori and Oram the next most likely candidates would be Nash and CDG
@dogmeat said in Black Caps 2019 Cricket World Cup Squad:
@rotated Thompson's bowling average was 50!
Which is pretty much par for the course for all NZ off-spinners pre-Vettori - even Patel averaged 42. Never said he was terribly good but there was no doubt he was justifiably picked as a top 7 batsman and part of the frontline attack as the lead spinner for a decent period of time.
After Hadlee, Cairns, Vettori and Oram the next most likely candidates would be Nash and CDG
CDG in tests well may be there.
Nash? Never batted in the top 7 in tests, hardly ever in ODI except for the brief period where he captained and batted himself above Harris - in both forms his most frequent batting slot was 9 by a decent margin. Very much in that Andre Adams, later stage Kyle Mills, Nathan McCullum class. Did see him absolutely massacre some line-ups though in some domestic and tour games in person.
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@dogmeat said in Black Caps 2019 Cricket World Cup Squad:
@rotated Thompson's bowling average was 50!
Which is pretty much par for the course for all NZ off-spinners pre-Vettori - even Patel averaged 42. Never said he was terribly good but there was no doubt he was justifiably picked as a top 7 batsman and part of the frontline attack as the lead spinner for a decent period of time.
After Hadlee, Cairns, Vettori and Oram the next most likely candidates would be Nash and CDG
CDG in tests well may be there.
Nash? Never batted in the top 7 in tests, hardly ever in ODI except for the brief period where he captained and batted himself above Harris - in both forms his most frequent batting slot was 9 by a decent margin. Very much in that Andre Adams, later stage Kyle Mills, Nathan McCullum class. Did see him absolutely massacre some line-ups though in some domestic and tour games in person.
@rotated So the qualification for whether you are an all-rounder is how shit your team mates are?
I don't think Thompson was ever justifiably picked as a top seven batsman nor could you ever call his bowling part of an attack.
He never cemented his place in the team. His 19 tests took seven years and he was dire in all but a handful.
I don't think Naskh was a genuine all rounder either but injuries permitting I think he had more potential to become one than Thompson ever did
ST Batting 30.9 Bowling 50.15 Differential -19.25
DN Batting 23.51 Bowling 23.48Differential -4.96I'd give part time partnership breakers like Coney more credence as all rounders than Thompson who shouldn't really have got into the team for either discipline
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@rotated So the qualification for whether you are an all-rounder is how shit your team mates are?
I don't think Thompson was ever justifiably picked as a top seven batsman nor could you ever call his bowling part of an attack.
He never cemented his place in the team. His 19 tests took seven years and he was dire in all but a handful.
I don't think Naskh was a genuine all rounder either but injuries permitting I think he had more potential to become one than Thompson ever did
ST Batting 30.9 Bowling 50.15 Differential -19.25
DN Batting 23.51 Bowling 23.48Differential -4.96I'd give part time partnership breakers like Coney more credence as all rounders than Thompson who shouldn't really have got into the team for either discipline
@dogmeat said in Black Caps 2019 Cricket World Cup Squad:
@rotated So the qualification for whether you are an all-rounder is how shit your team mates are?
I don't think Thompson was ever justifiably picked as a top seven batsman nor could you ever call his bowling part of an attack.
He never cemented his place in the team. His 19 tests took seven years and he was dire in all but a handful.
I don't think Naskh was a genuine all rounder either but injuries permitting I think he had more potential to become one than Thompson ever did
ST Batting 30.9 Bowling 50.15 Differential -19.25
DN Batting 23.51 Bowling 23.48Differential -4.96I'd give part time partnership breakers like Coney more credence as all rounders than Thompson who shouldn't really have got into the team for either discipline
Plus Thomson loses marks for this....
Statistically for me our best test all rounders are probably Paddles, Cairns or Vettori depending on how much allowance you make for a spinner having a higher average.
Paddles the best bowler by fucken miles obviously but the weakest batsman. Cairns the best batsman, possibly second best bowler but obviously DV eclipses both for longevity....
When you consider that centuries/5 fors are rated about the same then Paddles achieved this 38 times in 86 tests vs Cairns 18 in 62 and Vettoris 26 in 113 so in that regard he absolutely blitzes them despite being as I said the inferior batsman.
Internationally Jaques Kallis ( 50 in 166 ) and Beefy Botham ( 41 in 102 ) stand up pretty well.
You know who doesn't? Andrew Flintoff who comes in with a mere 8 in 79 fucken tests!
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@dogmeat said in Black Caps 2019 Cricket World Cup Squad:
@rotated So the qualification for whether you are an all-rounder is how shit your team mates are?
I don't think Thompson was ever justifiably picked as a top seven batsman nor could you ever call his bowling part of an attack.
He never cemented his place in the team. His 19 tests took seven years and he was dire in all but a handful.
I don't think Naskh was a genuine all rounder either but injuries permitting I think he had more potential to become one than Thompson ever did
ST Batting 30.9 Bowling 50.15 Differential -19.25
DN Batting 23.51 Bowling 23.48Differential -4.96I'd give part time partnership breakers like Coney more credence as all rounders than Thompson who shouldn't really have got into the team for either discipline
Plus Thomson loses marks for this....
Statistically for me our best test all rounders are probably Paddles, Cairns or Vettori depending on how much allowance you make for a spinner having a higher average.
Paddles the best bowler by fucken miles obviously but the weakest batsman. Cairns the best batsman, possibly second best bowler but obviously DV eclipses both for longevity....
When you consider that centuries/5 fors are rated about the same then Paddles achieved this 38 times in 86 tests vs Cairns 18 in 62 and Vettoris 26 in 113 so in that regard he absolutely blitzes them despite being as I said the inferior batsman.
Internationally Jaques Kallis ( 50 in 166 ) and Beefy Botham ( 41 in 102 ) stand up pretty well.
You know who doesn't? Andrew Flintoff who comes in with a mere 8 in 79 fucken tests!
@MN5 said in Black Caps 2019 Cricket World Cup Squad:
@dogmeat said in Black Caps 2019 Cricket World Cup Squad:
@rotated So the qualification for whether you are an all-rounder is how shit your team mates are.....?
......You know who doesn't? Andrew Flintoff who comes in with a mere 8 in 79 fucken tests!
That's one more than Joel Garner, who only got 7 in 58 tests.
He did have a bowling average a fraction under 21 though.
Holding only got 13 five wicket bags. Andy Roberts got 11. Colin Croft just 3.
Malcolm Marshall, however, got 22 - so he was marginally better than Cairnsie - though his bowling average was only fractionally better than Joel Garner - who may have been more shit than Flintoff!
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@MN5 said in Black Caps 2019 Cricket World Cup Squad:
@dogmeat said in Black Caps 2019 Cricket World Cup Squad:
@rotated So the qualification for whether you are an all-rounder is how shit your team mates are.....?
......You know who doesn't? Andrew Flintoff who comes in with a mere 8 in 79 fucken tests!
That's one more than Joel Garner, who only got 7 in 58 tests.
He did have a bowling average a fraction under 21 though.
Holding only got 13 five wicket bags. Andy Roberts got 11. Colin Croft just 3.
Malcolm Marshall, however, got 22 - so he was marginally better than Cairnsie - though his bowling average was only fractionally better than Joel Garner - who may have been more shit than Flintoff!
@Chris-B said in Black Caps 2019 Cricket World Cup Squad:
@MN5 said in Black Caps 2019 Cricket World Cup Squad:
@dogmeat said in Black Caps 2019 Cricket World Cup Squad:
@rotated So the qualification for whether you are an all-rounder is how shit your team mates are.....?
......You know who doesn't? Andrew Flintoff who comes in with a mere 8 in 79 fucken tests!
That's one more than Joel Garner, who only got 7 in 58 tests.
He did have a bowling average a fraction under 21 though.
Holding only got 13 five wicket bags. Andy Roberts got 11. Colin Croft just 3.
Malcolm Marshall, however, got 22 - so he was marginally better than Cairnsie - though his bowling average was only fractionally better than Joel Garner - who may have been more shit than Flintoff!
Yeah I kinda realised that after posting it.....Garner had some odd stats for a true great of the game. I guess he was victim in one sense of there only being 10 wickets to take and having to share with the opening bowlers. Obviously he always chipped in with 2-40 or 3-60 type performances.
Flintoff is still fucken overrated though.
