NH Ditch Junior rep sides
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@taniwharugby said in NH ditch Junior rep rugby teams...:
I struggle to understand the drivers, how is removing that representative opportunity for the better quality kids going to enhance their enjoyment of the game?
My experience is that junior rep rugby doesn't target the better kids, so I have quite a lot of sympathy for the idea. Junior reps are the kids that have played the longest and/or are the earlier developers and/or play for the best teams and coaches. As a kid who was at the wrong end of the year, I thought I was much worse at rugby than I was, whereas it was merely that I was close to 11 when the "stars" were almost 13. At that age it's a huge matter.
As a guy who has seen literally thousands of kids flow through from junior rep rugby into secondary school rugby, I don't see any link between who is good at 18 and who is good at 12. I've seen so many kids come into school all pumped up because they played Roller Mills or such, only to find that they were merely early developers. Meanwhile some quiet kid who develops late, but has a good work ethic, is a much better player. Our school stopped selecting teams based on previous rep experience and went with who trained harder.
There's quite a few on this site that argue even 1st XV rugby continues the practice of merely selecting the biggest players, rather than the most skillful, which is why Auckland can't convert its massive base into provincial dominance.
And the worst part of the rep system is that it ingrains any selections based on age/size etc. Those kids get to play more and get the best coaches. Meanwhile some late developer gets only half the rugby and less good coaching.
This is not to say that NH is right. Sometimes a bad system is better than no system. I simply do not think that being selected as a rep, aged 11, is any guide to anything much.
Much guess will be that it will have zero long term effect on NH rugby.
Yeah I agree with this. There isn’t always real evaluation, just the kids with physical stats shine more but when everyone’s got through the growth spurt and it’s a level playing field you find out who the better players are. I doubt U10 rep selection predicts who makes senior A side.
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@taniwharugby said in NH ditch Junior rep rugby teams...:
I struggle to understand the drivers, how is removing that representative opportunity for the better quality kids going to enhance their enjoyment of the game?
My experience is that junior rep rugby doesn't target the better kids, so I have quite a lot of sympathy for the idea. Junior reps are the kids that have played the longest and/or are the earlier developers and/or play for the best teams and coaches. As a kid who was at the wrong end of the year, I thought I was much worse at rugby than I was, whereas it was merely that I was close to 11 when the "stars" were almost 13. At that age it's a huge matter.
As a guy who has seen literally thousands of kids flow through from junior rep rugby into secondary school rugby, I don't see any link between who is good at 18 and who is good at 12. I've seen so many kids come into school all pumped up because they played Roller Mills or such, only to find that they were merely early developers. Meanwhile some quiet kid who develops late, but has a good work ethic, is a much better player. Our school stopped selecting teams based on previous rep experience and went with who trained harder.
There's quite a few on this site that argue even 1st XV rugby continues the practice of merely selecting the biggest players, rather than the most skillful, which is why Auckland can't convert its massive base into provincial dominance.
And the worst part of the rep system is that it ingrains any selections based on age/size etc. Those kids get to play more and get the best coaches. Meanwhile some late developer gets only half the rugby and less good coaching.
This is not to say that NH is right. Sometimes a bad system is better than no system. I simply do not think that being selected as a rep, aged 11, is any guide to anything much.
Much guess will be that it will have zero long term effect on NH rugby.
@Chester-Draws having been around alot of the kids who have made rep teams since they start having them here, the ones I have seen have been selected on ability, there will always be one or two that make it based on who they know or who thier dad was or uncle, but I havent seen anything like what you allude to...Yet.
The experience TR JNr got form the sub-union rep side last year, was awesome, the new friends he made, the things he picked up from the other coach (given I've been his coach since he was 5) He is also unlikely to make another rep side, but the experience has made him at least want to.
I actually preferred Roller MIlls as it gets rid of alot of the early bloomers (physically) due to the weight restrictions.
We have one boy in our team, farking outstanding loosie, he is 13 now, he played Roller MIlls last year, which was 57kg restricted, he weighed 40kg when he played RM, I think he is about 48kg now. PLayed in all the rep teams they have up until now.
When he puts on some size, he will be even better, has everything going for him with technique, skills, engine, speed, but most importantly, smarts.
This kid has some pedigree with relatives having played to the highest level, but is not a 'name' people would know to associate with them.
Smart coaches will always look for the hard workers anyway...there is a guy they get on RS regularly and he always talks about how he looks for the hard working kids over the physically gifted ones.
Build your team around them, rather than the big kid.
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Yeah I agree with this. There isn’t always real evaluation, just the kids with physical stats shine more but when everyone’s got through the growth spurt and it’s a level playing field you find out who the better players are. I doubt U10 rep selection predicts who makes senior A side.
@Billy-Tell said in NH Ditch Junior rep sides:
I doubt U10 rep selection predicts who makes senior A side.
plenty of NZ Schoolboys or U20s that dont go on to make the ABs, may as well ditch those teams too.
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I agree with @Chester-Draws and it has absolutely nothing to do with political correctness. The analysis is based on research. But we'll have to wait and see whether North Harbour has addressed the issue of decreasing player numbers with the right response (whether this will be a solution) to keep kids in rugby longer.
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I may be way off base here, but from what little I know of age grade reps, it seems that selection is even more riddled with nepotism than senior reps. Any truth to that?
@Milk thats what has been alluded to above, but then there are claims of bias at AB level too...
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It may have changed but my first taste of junior rep was for the Whangarei Bears circa 1991 where we travelled to I think Kaitaia and participated in an 8 team tournament. I believe I was around 12 years old and there was a weight limit of maybe 52 kilos. We got billeted out two to a house.
This tournament was so much fun and I got to meet loads of other kids and just play rugby. The atmosphere was fantastic and I can still remember watching the final with all the other kids.
I think Jason Shoemark was the only one I remember from our side that kicked on.
Even though I played in this tournament it didn't stop my 16 year old brain wanting to shag chicks, smoke pot and drink piss instead of playing rugby. I so wish I had continued playing and not done all the stupid shit I did in my teens.
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It may have changed but my first taste of junior rep was for the Whangarei Bears circa 1991 where we travelled to I think Kaitaia and participated in an 8 team tournament. I believe I was around 12 years old and there was a weight limit of maybe 52 kilos. We got billeted out two to a house.
This tournament was so much fun and I got to meet loads of other kids and just play rugby. The atmosphere was fantastic and I can still remember watching the final with all the other kids.
I think Jason Shoemark was the only one I remember from our side that kicked on.
Even though I played in this tournament it didn't stop my 16 year old brain wanting to shag chicks, smoke pot and drink piss instead of playing rugby. I so wish I had continued playing and not done all the stupid shit I did in my teens.
@chimoaus that was the tournament my son played in last year, now called Taniwha shield, weight restricted to 57kg (same as Roller Mills) although this was problematic for some of the kids at around 60kg...
if you played in 91, you would be about 5 years younger than me...
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@chimoaus that was the tournament my son played in last year, now called Taniwha shield, weight restricted to 57kg (same as Roller Mills) although this was problematic for some of the kids at around 60kg...
if you played in 91, you would be about 5 years younger than me...
@taniwharugby said in NH Ditch Junior rep sides:
@chimoaus that was the tournament my son played in last year, now called Taniwha shield, weight restricted to 57kg (same as Roller Mills) although this was problematic for some of the kids at around 60kg...
if you played in 91, you would be about 5 years younger than me...
Glad to hear it is still going, it was a fun experience.
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Wow the NH tree hugging brigade are really taking a gamble here.
Don’t mind them scrapping club rep sides, but the union rep scrapping is a joke. It’s a big thing for young kids to get a taste of pulling on their provincial/sub union jersey. Helps aspiration..
Can see a good spin off for Auckland and Northland here. Southern parents may take their kids over the bridge and northern ones through to Wellsford.. that’s my only positive!
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I agree with @Chester-Draws and it has absolutely nothing to do with political correctness. The analysis is based on research. But we'll have to wait and see whether North Harbour has addressed the issue of decreasing player numbers with the right response (whether this will be a solution) to keep kids in rugby longer.
@Stargazer said in NH Ditch Junior rep sides:
I agree with @Chester-Draws and it has absolutely nothing to do with political correctness. The analysis is based on research. But we'll have to wait and see whether North Harbour has addressed the issue of decreasing player numbers with the right response (whether this will be a solution) to keep kids in rugby longer.
Not having seen the research, we can’t tell if the conclusions were valid or not.
It’s a fact that player numbers are decreasing, but is that to do with rep teams or the modern life impact on children’s activity levels?
It stinks of PC participation bollocks, and with the infestation of extreme leftist views in academia I’d want to take a very thorough look at the methodology used before throwing away pathways for kids to excel.
Remember too that’s Rugby is not popular with certain types and is seen as representing made up issues like toxic masculinity.
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Why can't they just keep both reps and the orange slice league? CF jnr's football club has rep teams and in house league teams. Then both levels of players can be happy
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@canefan said in NH Ditch Junior rep sides:
Why can't they just keep both reps and the orange slice league? CF jnr's football club has rep teams and in house league teams. Then both levels of players can be happy
Far too sensible.
@Kirwan said in NH Ditch Junior rep sides:
@canefan said in NH Ditch Junior rep sides:
Why can't they just keep both reps and the orange slice league? CF jnr's football club has rep teams and in house league teams. Then both levels of players can be happy
Far too sensible.
CF jnr is definitely orange slice level. He finds it hard playing in mixed teams where his better mates pass rarely. Those kids are all trying out for reps. I think one big league impairs the growth of all of the players, for opposing reasons
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@Stargazer said in NH Ditch Junior rep sides:
I agree with @Chester-Draws and it has absolutely nothing to do with political correctness. The analysis is based on research. But we'll have to wait and see whether North Harbour has addressed the issue of decreasing player numbers with the right response (whether this will be a solution) to keep kids in rugby longer.
Not having seen the research, we can’t tell if the conclusions were valid or not.
It’s a fact that player numbers are decreasing, but is that to do with rep teams or the modern life impact on children’s activity levels?
It stinks of PC participation bollocks, and with the infestation of extreme leftist views in academia I’d want to take a very thorough look at the methodology used before throwing away pathways for kids to excel.
Remember too that’s Rugby is not popular with certain types and is seen as representing made up issues like toxic masculinity.
@Kirwan rugby has always had a drop off in the teenage years, its just in recent times I think the number has increased, which will be the pressure from other activities, sports and gaming.
We have had 2 kids come back to rugby this season after a year off, but talking to another coach he said so far at U14 they have only had 10 confirm they will be playing, 3 of whom are from our team last year (season is still 2.5 months away from starting - we had 14 at our 2nd pre-season training this week)
As I said above, I really struggle to understand the logic and how this is supposed to encourage kids to stay in the sport, let alone return/start, if anything, I think it could have the opposite effect.
I am pretty sure only a very small number of the kids that make representative sides do not like making these teams (yes will be a few with pressure from parents, but this would happen whatever they do) whereas most enjoy and thrive on the experience, now if they have aspirations they head over the bridge to Auckland, up SH1 to Wellsford, or over to league or something else.
The research would be interesting to read to see what the sample size was, what measures etc
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@Stargazer said in NH Ditch Junior rep sides:
I agree with @Chester-Draws and it has absolutely nothing to do with political correctness. The analysis is based on research. But we'll have to wait and see whether North Harbour has addressed the issue of decreasing player numbers with the right response (whether this will be a solution) to keep kids in rugby longer.
Not having seen the research, we can’t tell if the conclusions were valid or not.
It’s a fact that player numbers are decreasing, but is that to do with rep teams or the modern life impact on children’s activity levels?
It stinks of PC participation bollocks, and with the infestation of extreme leftist views in academia I’d want to take a very thorough look at the methodology used before throwing away pathways for kids to excel.
Remember too that’s Rugby is not popular with certain types and is seen as representing made up issues like toxic masculinity.
@Kirwan said in NH Ditch Junior rep sides:
@Stargazer said in NH Ditch Junior rep sides:
I agree with @Chester-Draws and it has absolutely nothing to do with political correctness. The analysis is based on research. But we'll have to wait and see whether North Harbour has addressed the issue of decreasing player numbers with the right response (whether this will be a solution) to keep kids in rugby longer.
Not having seen the research, we can’t tell if the conclusions were valid or not.
It’s a fact that player numbers are decreasing, but is that to do with rep teams or the modern life impact on children’s activity levels?
It stinks of PC participation bollocks, and with the infestation of extreme leftist views in academia I’d want to take a very thorough look at the methodology used before throwing away pathways for kids to excel.
Remember too that’s Rugby is not popular with certain types and is seen as representing made up issues like toxic masculinity.
It's this kind of nonsense why I don't go to the politics threads.
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They talk about making things 'fun' for the kids and go down the participation route to achieve this. What about the kids that are like I was, highly competitive and get their fun from competing to win? Anything that wasn't competitive I found boring and I walked away from it? I still do nowadays.
I remember back in the 80s being stopped from playing sport at my primary school because I was too competitive and the other kids were getting upset (especially when the only person I let win, and therefore stay 'in', was the cute girl with brown eyes, big lips and long legs - it worked because I got more than my share of kisses out of her
). I would hate to think how bad it has become for competitive kids now. -
@Kirwan rugby has always had a drop off in the teenage years, its just in recent times I think the number has increased, which will be the pressure from other activities, sports and gaming.
We have had 2 kids come back to rugby this season after a year off, but talking to another coach he said so far at U14 they have only had 10 confirm they will be playing, 3 of whom are from our team last year (season is still 2.5 months away from starting - we had 14 at our 2nd pre-season training this week)
As I said above, I really struggle to understand the logic and how this is supposed to encourage kids to stay in the sport, let alone return/start, if anything, I think it could have the opposite effect.
I am pretty sure only a very small number of the kids that make representative sides do not like making these teams (yes will be a few with pressure from parents, but this would happen whatever they do) whereas most enjoy and thrive on the experience, now if they have aspirations they head over the bridge to Auckland, up SH1 to Wellsford, or over to league or something else.
The research would be interesting to read to see what the sample size was, what measures etc
@taniwharugby said in NH Ditch Junior rep sides:
As I said above, I really struggle to understand the logic and how this is supposed to encourage kids to stay in the sport, let alone return/start, if anything, I think it could have the opposite effect.
They seem to be saying that those who miss out are disappointed, and less likely to stay in. Therefore, by removing the (very young) talent pathway, they hope to keep more people on till later.
Not sure if it works, but good luck to them for trying. Being aspirational is all good, but at 11, dollars to donuts it's the parents with unrealistic expectations. I still cringe at the thought of some parents of another cricket club videotaping their six year old batting to work on it later. Other teams were getting growled at and shamed by their coach ... betting the drop out rate is high there
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@taniwharugby said in NH Ditch Junior rep sides:
As I said above, I really struggle to understand the logic and how this is supposed to encourage kids to stay in the sport, let alone return/start, if anything, I think it could have the opposite effect.
They seem to be saying that those who miss out are disappointed, and less likely to stay in. Therefore, by removing the (very young) talent pathway, they hope to keep more people on till later.
Not sure if it works, but good luck to them for trying. Being aspirational is all good, but at 11, dollars to donuts it's the parents with unrealistic expectations. I still cringe at the thought of some parents of another cricket club videotaping their six year old batting to work on it later. Other teams were getting growled at and shamed by their coach ... betting the drop out rate is high there
@nzzp so like everything in life then? Not rewarding excellence and hard work?
As I have said before, I have coached my sons team now into my 8th year, and I can tell you when they were 5 and adults werent keeping score, the kids knew who won, how many tries everyone got and couldn't understand why the ref was taking it easy on the other team when they were thrashing them.
The sub-union TR Jnr made last year was a big deal for him, more so as he almost had to pull out after injuring himself weeks prior and being put in a cast as a pre-caution, shoulda seen the disappointment in his face when the Dr said he was putting a cast on and he realised that there was a chance he wouldnt be able to play the tournament, almost broke my heart.
Fuck, its be great if my boy was awesome, but he isnt, I know he is better than he thinks he is, but he will not make a career out of rugby and playing that last year will likely be his ceiling in terms of rep rugby, so seeing how much it meant to him, I know denying other kids that opportunity seems wrong to me.
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@nzzp so like everything in life then? Not rewarding excellence and hard work?
As I have said before, I have coached my sons team now into my 8th year, and I can tell you when they were 5 and adults werent keeping score, the kids knew who won, how many tries everyone got and couldn't understand why the ref was taking it easy on the other team when they were thrashing them.
The sub-union TR Jnr made last year was a big deal for him, more so as he almost had to pull out after injuring himself weeks prior and being put in a cast as a pre-caution, shoulda seen the disappointment in his face when the Dr said he was putting a cast on and he realised that there was a chance he wouldnt be able to play the tournament, almost broke my heart.
Fuck, its be great if my boy was awesome, but he isnt, I know he is better than he thinks he is, but he will not make a career out of rugby and playing that last year will likely be his ceiling in terms of rep rugby, so seeing how much it meant to him, I know denying other kids that opportunity seems wrong to me.
@taniwharugby said in NH Ditch Junior rep sides:
@nzzp so like everything in life then? Not rewarding excellence and hard work?
I think that's an over-reaction. At 11, it's not usually hard work, but more like early growers or people born early in the year.
