Aussie Pro Rugby
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@Virgil said in Aussie Rugby in general:
I actually feel sorry for the ARU, they are in a lose lose situation.
Folau must be the stupidest fuck out there.
How hard is it to not understand when your paid by someone they are allowed to have expectations of how you behave.
If the CEO of Spark or Fontera etc posted that shit he or she would be gone.As said above hour free to say what you want but your free to face consequences as well.
Was driving home earlier and listening to ZB, a few old timers rung and said they felt that Folau was being vilified for his views. I munched my imaginary popcorn while listening and Marcus Lush quite rightly pointed out that it's not some out of touch preacher spinning shit on a Sunday, it's a "role model" who has untold impressionable fans/youths who look up to him.
But yeah, sad thing is he'll fuck off and earn millions in some french club for the next few years.
@MN5 said in Aussie Rugby in general:
@Virgil said in Aussie Rugby in general:
I actually feel sorry for the ARU, they are in a lose lose situation.
Folau must be the stupidest fuck out there.
How hard is it to not understand when your paid by someone they are allowed to have expectations of how you behave.
If the CEO of Spark or Fontera etc posted that shit he or she would be gone.As said above hour free to say what you want but your free to face consequences as well.
Was driving home earlier and listening to ZB, a few old timers rung and said they felt that Folau was being vilified for his views. I munched my imaginary popcorn while listening and Marcus Lush quite rightly pointed out that it's not some out of touch preacher spinning shit on a Sunday, it's a "role model" who has untold impressionable fans/youths who look up to him.
But yeah, sad thing is he'll fuck off and earn millions in some french club for the next few years.
Probably not Stade Francais
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Folau targetted eight groups, including atheists and adulterers, as going to Hell. I haven’t repented yet. I guess that means I should be twice as outraged and incensed and offended as LGBTQers. Strangely I’m not feeling it. Fwiw there are plenty of Christians and Muslims who believe the same, but society only preaches tolerance and diversity, they don’t actually follow the practice.
@Salacious-Crumb said in Aussie Rugby in general:
Folau targetted eight groups, including atheists and adulterers, as going to Hell. I haven’t repented yet. I guess that means I should be twice as outraged and incensed and offended as LGBTQers. Strangely I’m not feeling it. Fwiw there are plenty of Christians and Muslims who believe the same, but society only preaches tolerance and diversity, they don’t actually follow the practice.
One of these things is not like the others...
drunks - you chose to drink alcohol
adulterers - you chose to have sex with someone who is married to someone else
liars - you chose to lie
fornicators - you chose to have sex outside marriage
thieves - you chose to steal
Atheists - you chose not to believe in god
idolaters - you chose to worship some statue other than of god
now all these things there can be extenuating circumstances, I'm not arguing that, but it basically comes down to a choice. But if you keep doing those above "sins" earning one/some of those labels like me, and there is a big sky fairy, I accept I am going to HELL! He would get away with a post against those, I think.However
homosexuals - you are born gay. Nothing you can do about it. Same as saying someone who is left handed (which has been previously suggested by christians) or blond is going to hell. That's just discrimination and wrong, as well as against the contract/inclusion policy he signed up for, taking millions for companies that support those gays. So bye bye and good riddance, and legally he hasn't got a leg to stand on (I hope!) -
@Salacious-Crumb said in Aussie Rugby in general:
Folau targetted eight groups, including atheists and adulterers, as going to Hell. I haven’t repented yet. I guess that means I should be twice as outraged and incensed and offended as LGBTQers. Strangely I’m not feeling it. Fwiw there are plenty of Christians and Muslims who believe the same, but society only preaches tolerance and diversity, they don’t actually follow the practice.
One of these things is not like the others...
drunks - you chose to drink alcohol
adulterers - you chose to have sex with someone who is married to someone else
liars - you chose to lie
fornicators - you chose to have sex outside marriage
thieves - you chose to steal
Atheists - you chose not to believe in god
idolaters - you chose to worship some statue other than of god
now all these things there can be extenuating circumstances, I'm not arguing that, but it basically comes down to a choice. But if you keep doing those above "sins" earning one/some of those labels like me, and there is a big sky fairy, I accept I am going to HELL! He would get away with a post against those, I think.However
homosexuals - you are born gay. Nothing you can do about it. Same as saying someone who is left handed (which has been previously suggested by christians) or blond is going to hell. That's just discrimination and wrong, as well as against the contract/inclusion policy he signed up for, taking millions for companies that support those gays. So bye bye and good riddance, and legally he hasn't got a leg to stand on (I hope!)@Machpants said in Aussie Rugby in general:
@Salacious-Crumb said in Aussie Rugby in general:
Folau targetted eight groups, including atheists and adulterers, as going to Hell. I haven’t repented yet. I guess that means I should be twice as outraged and incensed and offended as LGBTQers. Strangely I’m not feeling it. Fwiw there are plenty of Christians and Muslims who believe the same, but society only preaches tolerance and diversity, they don’t actually follow the practice.
One of these things is not like the others...
drunks - you chose to drink alcohol
adulterers - you chose to have sex with someone who is married to someone else
liars - you chose to lie
fornicators - you chose to have sex outside marriage
thieves - you chose to steal
Atheists - you chose not to believe in god
idolaters - you chose to worship some statue other than of god
now all these things there can be extenuating circumstances, I'm not arguing that, but it basically comes down to a choice. But if you keep doing those above "sins" earning one/some of those labels like me, and there is a big sky fairy, I accept I am going to HELL! He would get away with a post against those, I think.However
homosexuals - you are born gay. Nothing you can do about it. Same as saying someone who is left handed (which has been previously suggested by christians) or blond is going to hell. That's just discrimination and wrong, as well as against the contract/inclusion policy he signed up for, taking millions for companies that support those gays. So bye bye and good riddance, and legally he hasn't got a leg to stand on (I hope!)Technically you're born an atheist.
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@Kirwan said in Aussie Rugby in general:
I see people are wondering if he did this on purpose to get out of his contract. Interesting timing now that he’s the top try scorer.
That was my thoughts . I doubt the French or Japanese really care what he thinks .
@jegga guess it depends what thier sponsors think or maybe they think they will be able to control him...
So Folau has gone to ground and isnt responding to the ARU attempts to contact him and go over it with him...to determine if there were mitigating factors...maybe it was a drunk tweet
Seems pretty arrogant of him to do this, knowing the shit storm it would create then choose to ignore his bosses when they try to contact him.
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@jegga guess it depends what thier sponsors think or maybe they think they will be able to control him...
So Folau has gone to ground and isnt responding to the ARU attempts to contact him and go over it with him...to determine if there were mitigating factors...maybe it was a drunk tweet
Seems pretty arrogant of him to do this, knowing the shit storm it would create then choose to ignore his bosses when they try to contact him.
@taniwharugby said in Aussie Rugby in general:
@jegga guess it depends what thier sponsors think or maybe they think they will be able to control him...
So Folau has gone to ground and isnt responding to the ARU attempts to contact him and go over it with him...to determine if there were mitigating factors...maybe it was a drunk tweet
Seems pretty arrogant of him to do this, knowing the shit storm it would create then choose to ignore his bosses when they try to contact him.
Think it’s spelt C. O. W. A. R. D
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Or Maria is going.. oops meant to post that on my insta!
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@Salacious-Crumb said in Aussie Rugby in general:
Folau targetted eight groups, including atheists and adulterers, as going to Hell. I haven’t repented yet. I guess that means I should be twice as outraged and incensed and offended as LGBTQers. Strangely I’m not feeling it. Fwiw there are plenty of Christians and Muslims who believe the same, but society only preaches tolerance and diversity, they don’t actually follow the practice.
One of these things is not like the others...
drunks - you chose to drink alcohol
adulterers - you chose to have sex with someone who is married to someone else
liars - you chose to lie
fornicators - you chose to have sex outside marriage
thieves - you chose to steal
Atheists - you chose not to believe in god
idolaters - you chose to worship some statue other than of god
now all these things there can be extenuating circumstances, I'm not arguing that, but it basically comes down to a choice. But if you keep doing those above "sins" earning one/some of those labels like me, and there is a big sky fairy, I accept I am going to HELL! He would get away with a post against those, I think.However
homosexuals - you are born gay. Nothing you can do about it. Same as saying someone who is left handed (which has been previously suggested by christians) or blond is going to hell. That's just discrimination and wrong, as well as against the contract/inclusion policy he signed up for, taking millions for companies that support those gays. So bye bye and good riddance, and legally he hasn't got a leg to stand on (I hope!)@Machpants said in Aussie Rugby in general:
Atheists - you chose not to believe in god
Oh, Jesus! Now I really am going to Hell.
“Atheism is a choice.” File under: New Things I Learn Every Day.
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I’m genuinely curious if the outrage and condemnation of Folau would be as strong and intense if he was a faithful follower of the world’s biggest and fastest-growing religion, instead of an ignorant Christian? I suspect more than a few people of conscience might defend him on the grounds of culture and upbringing, as I’ve heard those excuses made in the past, but I just don’t know, maybe the pile-on would be greater?
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An interesting angle here is that in NZs bill of rights, and I'm sure Aus has it in a human rights act, people are protected from discrimination based on their religious beliefs.
Firing a guy based on his religious beliefs fits that bill perfectly. So unless you have something specific in your contract you shouldn't be fired for quoting your holy book.
When it comes to Folau's contract, I'd be surprised if his lawyers didn't put any mitigating factors into it regarding his religious beliefs. It will be interesting to see if the ARU will be able to terminate it without paying him out.
He wasn't fired for his religious beliefs, as some in the media are suggesting. He was fired because RA presented him with a contract that said he would face sanctions if he did this one specific thing. He signed said contract, and then did said thing almost immediately.
And then he blocked their calls when they tried to talk to him about it.
It's a workplace discipline issue, not a religious one.
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He wasn't fired for his religious beliefs, as some in the media are suggesting. He was fired because RA presented him with a contract that said he would face sanctions if he did this one specific thing. He signed said contract, and then did said thing almost immediately.
And then he blocked their calls when they tried to talk to him about it.
It's a workplace discipline issue, not a religious one.
@barbarian said in Aussie Rugby in general:
@No-Quarter said in Aussie Rugby in general:
An interesting angle here is that in NZs bill of rights, and I'm sure Aus has it in a human rights act, people are protected from discrimination based on their religious beliefs.
Firing a guy based on his religious beliefs fits that bill perfectly.
He wasn't fired for his religious beliefs, though. He was fired because RA presented him with a contract that said he would face sanctions if he did this one specific thing. He signed said contract, and then did said thing almost immediately.
And then he blocked their calls when they tried to talk to him about it.
It's a workplace discipline issue, not a religious one.
You cut my post in half and took it out of context. I specifically talked about the contract, and how none of us actually know what was written into it.
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@barbarian said in Aussie Rugby in general:
@No-Quarter said in Aussie Rugby in general:
An interesting angle here is that in NZs bill of rights, and I'm sure Aus has it in a human rights act, people are protected from discrimination based on their religious beliefs.
Firing a guy based on his religious beliefs fits that bill perfectly.
He wasn't fired for his religious beliefs, though. He was fired because RA presented him with a contract that said he would face sanctions if he did this one specific thing. He signed said contract, and then did said thing almost immediately.
And then he blocked their calls when they tried to talk to him about it.
It's a workplace discipline issue, not a religious one.
You cut my post in half and took it out of context. I specifically talked about the contract, and how none of us actually know what was written into it.
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@barbarian said in Aussie Rugby in general:
@No-Quarter said in Aussie Rugby in general:
An interesting angle here is that in NZs bill of rights, and I'm sure Aus has it in a human rights act, people are protected from discrimination based on their religious beliefs.
Firing a guy based on his religious beliefs fits that bill perfectly.
He wasn't fired for his religious beliefs, though. He was fired because RA presented him with a contract that said he would face sanctions if he did this one specific thing. He signed said contract, and then did said thing almost immediately.
And then he blocked their calls when they tried to talk to him about it.
It's a workplace discipline issue, not a religious one.
You cut my post in half and took it out of context. I specifically talked about the contract, and how none of us actually know what was written into it.
@No-Quarter said in Aussie Rugby in general:
You cut my post in half and took it out of context. I specifically talked about the contract, and how none of us actually know what was written into it.
I suspect the contract thing is the key, but there could be an interesting legal battle about what you can and cannot be contracted to be outside of 'work'. I'm no lawyer, but the tension between freedom of association and religion and how an employer can control this could be an interesting courtroom discussion. I mean, what about joining unions, or joining a white supremacist group, or a gang, or ... well whatever really.
In the end, it wouldn't surprise me if the technical reason for the termination was due to not answering phonecalls (ie not being available), rather than for expressing the beliefs. Either way, due process seems to have been avoided and it may come back to bite the ARU.
we'll see I suppose. Weird to think I may have seen the last game Folau played in Union at Eden Park!
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@No-Quarter said in Aussie Rugby in general:
You cut my post in half and took it out of context. I specifically talked about the contract, and how none of us actually know what was written into it.
I suspect the contract thing is the key, but there could be an interesting legal battle about what you can and cannot be contracted to be outside of 'work'. I'm no lawyer, but the tension between freedom of association and religion and how an employer can control this could be an interesting courtroom discussion. I mean, what about joining unions, or joining a white supremacist group, or a gang, or ... well whatever really.
In the end, it wouldn't surprise me if the technical reason for the termination was due to not answering phonecalls (ie not being available), rather than for expressing the beliefs. Either way, due process seems to have been avoided and it may come back to bite the ARU.
we'll see I suppose. Weird to think I may have seen the last game Folau played in Union at Eden Park!
@nzzp said in Aussie Rugby in general:
@No-Quarter said in Aussie Rugby in general:
You cut my post in half and took it out of context. I specifically talked about the contract, and how none of us actually know what was written into it.
I suspect the contract thing is the key, but there could be an interesting legal battle about what you can and cannot be contracted to be outside of 'work'. I'm no lawyer, but the tension between freedom of association and religion and how an employer can control this could be an interesting courtroom discussion. I mean, what about joining unions, or joining a white supremacist group, or a gang, or ... well whatever really.
In the end, it wouldn't surprise me if the technical reason for the termination was due to not answering phonecalls (ie not being available), rather than for expressing the beliefs. Either way, due process seems to have been avoided and it may come back to bite the ARU.
we'll see I suppose. Weird to think I may have seen the last game Folau played in Union at Eden Park!
Precisely. Just because both parties agree to a clause doesn't mean it has any force. Just like non-compete clauses; courts have determined those in the narrowest fashion.
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@barbarian said in Aussie Rugby in general:
@No-Quarter said in Aussie Rugby in general:
An interesting angle here is that in NZs bill of rights, and I'm sure Aus has it in a human rights act, people are protected from discrimination based on their religious beliefs.
Firing a guy based on his religious beliefs fits that bill perfectly.
He wasn't fired for his religious beliefs, though. He was fired because RA presented him with a contract that said he would face sanctions if he did this one specific thing. He signed said contract, and then did said thing almost immediately.
And then he blocked their calls when they tried to talk to him about it.
It's a workplace discipline issue, not a religious one.
You cut my post in half and took it out of context. I specifically talked about the contract, and how none of us actually know what was written into it.
@No-Quarter said in Aussie Rugby in general:
You cut my post in half and took it out of context. I specifically talked about the contract, and how none of us actually know what was written into it.
Apologies. I didn't mean for the post to be having a shot at you specifically. I was just trying to make my point in a way that contributed to the general flow of the thread, if that makes sense.
I'll delete the quote now to avoid confusion.
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@nzzp said in Aussie Rugby in general:
@No-Quarter said in Aussie Rugby in general:
You cut my post in half and took it out of context. I specifically talked about the contract, and how none of us actually know what was written into it.
I suspect the contract thing is the key, but there could be an interesting legal battle about what you can and cannot be contracted to be outside of 'work'. I'm no lawyer, but the tension between freedom of association and religion and how an employer can control this could be an interesting courtroom discussion. I mean, what about joining unions, or joining a white supremacist group, or a gang, or ... well whatever really.
In the end, it wouldn't surprise me if the technical reason for the termination was due to not answering phonecalls (ie not being available), rather than for expressing the beliefs. Either way, due process seems to have been avoided and it may come back to bite the ARU.
we'll see I suppose. Weird to think I may have seen the last game Folau played in Union at Eden Park!
Precisely. Just because both parties agree to a clause doesn't mean it has any force. Just like non-compete clauses; courts have determined those in the narrowest fashion.
@antipodean said in Aussie Rugby in general:
Precisely. Just because both parties agree to a clause doesn't mean it has any force. Just like non-compete clauses; courts have determined those in the narrowest fashion.
At very least he has violated their Inclusion Policy, and I'm sure there is mention in the contract of adhering to all policies, codes, etc.
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I guess one interesting issue for discussion is whether an employer can legally insert a clause in a contract ordering an employee to refrain from making public statements regarding his/her deeply held religious views. Has this been tested by the courts before?
But it all goes back to the perverse situation of an organisation that professes to being inclusive and supporting of gay rights paying stupid money to a guy who has publicly said that gays are going to hell to be the image of rugby union in Australia. What a complete joke.
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@No-Quarter said in Aussie Rugby in general:
You cut my post in half and took it out of context. I specifically talked about the contract, and how none of us actually know what was written into it.
Apologies. I didn't mean for the post to be having a shot at you specifically. I was just trying to make my point in a way that contributed to the general flow of the thread, if that makes sense.
I'll delete the quote now to avoid confusion.
@barbarian said in Aussie Rugby in general:
@No-Quarter said in Aussie Rugby in general:
You cut my post in half and took it out of context. I specifically talked about the contract, and how none of us actually know what was written into it.
Apologies. I didn't mean for the post to be having a shot at you specifically. I was just trying to make my point in a way that contributed to the general flow of the thread, if that makes sense.
I'll delete the quote now to avoid confusion.
@barbarian nah no worries, I'm not in complete disagreement with you, and was corrected on the discrimination laws later in the thread anyway.
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I guess one interesting issue for discussion is whether an employer can legally insert a clause in a contract ordering an employee to refrain from making public statements regarding his/her deeply held religious views. Has this been tested by the courts before?
But it all goes back to the perverse situation of an organisation that professes to being inclusive and supporting of gay rights paying stupid money to a guy who has publicly said that gays are going to hell to be the image of rugby union in Australia. What a complete joke.
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in Aussie Rugby in general:
But it all goes back to the perverse situation of an organisation that professes to being inclusive and supporting of gay rights paying stupid money to a guy who has publicly said that gays are going to hell to be the image of rugby union in Australia. What a complete joke.
I think it's just one of the many compromises you have to make when you run a professional sport in Australia.
Every code faces the same issue - what level of off-field shit are you happy to put up with to retain a star player? David Warner hardly embodies CA's values, same with Dusty Martin in the AFL. And let's not even start on the NRL.
There's a line somewhere that varies based on how talented the player is. And Izzy is fucking good.
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I guess one interesting issue for discussion is whether an employer can legally insert a clause in a contract ordering an employee to refrain from making public statements regarding his/her deeply held religious views. Has this been tested by the courts before?
But it all goes back to the perverse situation of an organisation that professes to being inclusive and supporting of gay rights paying stupid money to a guy who has publicly said that gays are going to hell to be the image of rugby union in Australia. What a complete joke.
@Rancid-Schnitzel isnt there likely to be the part about bringing the game and ARU into disrepute?
I expect there is something in there about sponsors too, who are likely to be offended with all thier dollars?
Heard a dude on the radio say if Jesus was real, he expects he woudl be fine with all those people Israel says will go to hell...he reckons Jesus seems like he would be a good fulla, he turned water into wine for people, took the rap for peoples sins...
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@antipodean said in Aussie Rugby in general:
@Machpants said in Aussie Rugby in general:
When he posts it loud and proud on social media, it is everyone's business
He broke the Inclusion Policy of AR (2014) that he signed up to, just the same as everyone who signs up to specific behaviour for their job. He got a warning last time - apparently not this time
If everyone just went about their daily lives and ignored his post the world would be a better place. Instead everyone is running around drawing attention to it, magnifying the problem they assert exists. Does anybody think sacking him will stop him posting religious nonsense?
What does the ARU think his fellow religious PIs think about this outcome?
What should it matter? Do they all have to group think?
He breached the terms of his contract, all PI players should know not to breach your contract.
@Nepia said in Aussie Rugby in general:
@antipodean said in Aussie Rugby in general:
@Machpants said in Aussie Rugby in general:
When he posts it loud and proud on social media, it is everyone's business
He broke the Inclusion Policy of AR (2014) that he signed up to, just the same as everyone who signs up to specific behaviour for their job. He got a warning last time - apparently not this time
If everyone just went about their daily lives and ignored his post the world would be a better place. Instead everyone is running around drawing attention to it, magnifying the problem they assert exists. Does anybody think sacking him will stop him posting religious nonsense?
What does the ARU think his fellow religious PIs think about this outcome?
What should it matter? Do they all have to group think?
He breached the terms of his contract, all PI players should know not to breach your contract.
I missed this, not they don't all have to group think. But there's a number for whom their religion forms a very large part of their individual and group identity.
