The Semenya Rule
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@jegga said in The Semenya Rule:
If there are other women with very similar biology competing does anyone have any theories as to why Semenya is the only one that’s getting all the attention?
Racism?
@booboo said in The Semenya Rule:
@jegga said in The Semenya Rule:
If there are other women with very similar biology competing does anyone have any theories as to why Semenya is the only one that’s getting all the attention?
Racism?
Goes without saying. Apart from that though?
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If there are other women with very similar biology competing does anyone have any theories as to why Semenya is the only one that’s getting all the attention?
@jegga said in The Semenya Rule:
If there are other women with very similar biology competing does anyone have any theories as to why Semenya is the only one that’s getting all the attention?
If she’s the only one winning doesn’t that show that it’s not really important ... ?
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@jegga said in The Semenya Rule:
If there are other women with very similar biology competing does anyone have any theories as to why Semenya is the only one that’s getting all the attention?
If she’s the only one winning doesn’t that show that it’s not really important ... ?
@MajorRage said in The Semenya Rule:
@jegga said in The Semenya Rule:
If there are other women with very similar biology competing does anyone have any theories as to why Semenya is the only one that’s getting all the attention?
If she’s the only one winning doesn’t that show that it’s not really important ... ?
This has flow on effects. The girls running against transgender athletes at the lower levels would argue that’s its important.
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@MajorRage said in The Semenya Rule:
@jegga said in The Semenya Rule:
If there are other women with very similar biology competing does anyone have any theories as to why Semenya is the only one that’s getting all the attention?
If she’s the only one winning doesn’t that show that it’s not really important ... ?
This has flow on effects. The girls running against transgender athletes at the lower levels would argue that’s its important.
@Kirwan said in The Semenya Rule:
@MajorRage said in The Semenya Rule:
@jegga said in The Semenya Rule:
If there are other women with very similar biology competing does anyone have any theories as to why Semenya is the only one that’s getting all the attention?
If she’s the only one winning doesn’t that show that it’s not really important ... ?
This has flow on effects. The girls running against transgender athletes at the lower levels would argue that’s its important.
Different argument. She ain’t transgender
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If there are other women with very similar biology competing does anyone have any theories as to why Semenya is the only one that’s getting all the attention?
@jegga said in The Semenya Rule:
If there are other women with very similar biology competing does anyone have any theories as to why Semenya is the only one that’s getting all the attention?
Just thinking waaay back to schoolboy biology now but iirc a woman with the XY chromosone doesn't necessarily have Semenya like testosterone. There are different levels and perhaps Semenya has more advantanced male characteristics than the others? Either that or it's racism.
Edit: This might help. There are two main types:
https://www.letsrun.com/news/2014/09/brief-history-intersex-athletes-sport/
AIS people have a mutation which prevents testosterone (T) from being absorbed by the body; hence there will be plenty of T in the blood, but virtually none in other cells. Those with AIS usually look like any other woman from the outside. Since there is no T uptake in the body, any athletic advantage they might have over other women is very small
Those born with 5-ARD have a mutation which prevents the creation of dihydrotestosterone, or DHT, in the body. DHT is a powerful androgen which triggers the formation of male genitalia. Thus, 5-ARD babies are often assigned female gender. Unlike AIS people, however, those with 5-ARD are affected by the T in their system and become much more masculine at puberty. This can give them a very large athletic advantage over other women.
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@Paekakboyz said in The Semenya Rule:
Need to track it down and do more reading but a researcher in the US has indicated that the impact of testosterone is being overstated around physical performance. Heard a brief snippet on RS but can't recall her name. I wonder if that is in anyway related to the all the work going on around PED detection and research? Surely that is full of edge cases where you do run into people with (natural) physiology outside the norm.
I agree that it's shit she'll have to take something to alter her levels, given that's her natural state. But also think there is a need to have these conversations - and that it'll only get more relevant and topical.
I saw that, and that researcher is being dishonest as she has a political agenda to push. For example not once does she mention the word puberty at all. Puberty + testosterone = massive, massive advantage.
Also, if testosterone isn't such a big deal then I guess it should just be removed from the list of banned substances by the WADA and the IOC then. Which of course is ridiculous, it's probably the biggest advantage an athlete can have which is why it's banned.
It's worth reading the quick article I linked to ( @MajorRage too) as it does a good job outlining the issues around testosterone and having the XY chromosome when competing in women's sport.
@No-Quarter I did read the article. It’s s fairly one sided piece which I’m sure will influence many. I’m not strong enough in this subject to say it’s 100 pct wrong or right.
I just take the view that every single athlete has their own advantages and disadvantages. And Semenyas advantage isn’t strong enough thst when it’s combined with 35 years of sports science research, it can overcome a doping programme.
It’s a good discussion to have tho, and I’m not going to criticize others for holding the opposite view.
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@No-Quarter I did read the article. It’s s fairly one sided piece which I’m sure will influence many. I’m not strong enough in this subject to say it’s 100 pct wrong or right.
I just take the view that every single athlete has their own advantages and disadvantages. And Semenyas advantage isn’t strong enough thst when it’s combined with 35 years of sports science research, it can overcome a doping programme.
It’s a good discussion to have tho, and I’m not going to criticize others for holding the opposite view.
@MajorRage said in The Semenya Rule:
@No-Quarter I did read the article. It’s s fairly one sided piece which I’m sure will influence many. I’m not strong enough in this subject to say it’s 100 pct wrong or right.
I just take the view that every single athlete has their own advantages and disadvantages. And Semenyas advantage isn’t strong enough thst when it’s combined with 35 years of sports science research, it can overcome a doping programme.
It’s a good discussion to have tho, and I’m not going to criticize others for holding the opposite view.
So because she can't beat insane records set by drugged athletes nearly 40 years ago, her advantage isn't that great? Have you seen pictures of the women who set those records? They're freaks of scientific manipulation.
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@Kirwan said in The Semenya Rule:
@MajorRage said in The Semenya Rule:
@jegga said in The Semenya Rule:
If there are other women with very similar biology competing does anyone have any theories as to why Semenya is the only one that’s getting all the attention?
If she’s the only one winning doesn’t that show that it’s not really important ... ?
This has flow on effects. The girls running against transgender athletes at the lower levels would argue that’s its important.
Different argument. She ain’t transgender
@MajorRage said in The Semenya Rule:
@Kirwan said in The Semenya Rule:
@MajorRage said in The Semenya Rule:
@jegga said in The Semenya Rule:
If there are other women with very similar biology competing does anyone have any theories as to why Semenya is the only one that’s getting all the attention?
If she’s the only one winning doesn’t that show that it’s not really important ... ?
This has flow on effects. The girls running against transgender athletes at the lower levels would argue that’s its important.
Different argument. She ain’t transgender
She’s much closer to transgender than a biological female, and both intersex and transgender have similar advantages over woman.
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@MajorRage said in The Semenya Rule:
@No-Quarter I did read the article. It’s s fairly one sided piece which I’m sure will influence many. I’m not strong enough in this subject to say it’s 100 pct wrong or right.
I just take the view that every single athlete has their own advantages and disadvantages. And Semenyas advantage isn’t strong enough thst when it’s combined with 35 years of sports science research, it can overcome a doping programme.
It’s a good discussion to have tho, and I’m not going to criticize others for holding the opposite view.
So because she can't beat insane records set by drugged athletes nearly 40 years ago, her advantage isn't that great? Have you seen pictures of the women who set those records? They're freaks of scientific manipulation.
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in The Semenya Rule:
@MajorRage said in The Semenya Rule:
@No-Quarter I did read the article. It’s s fairly one sided piece which I’m sure will influence many. I’m not strong enough in this subject to say it’s 100 pct wrong or right.
I just take the view that every single athlete has their own advantages and disadvantages. And Semenyas advantage isn’t strong enough thst when it’s combined with 35 years of sports science research, it can overcome a doping programme.
It’s a good discussion to have tho, and I’m not going to criticize others for holding the opposite view.
So because she can't beat insane records set by drugged athletes nearly 40 years ago, her advantage isn't that great? Have you seen pictures of the women who set those records? They're freaks of scientific manipulation.
35 years of sport science. I think the 2018 all blacks would beat the 1983 by a ton
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@Rancid-Schnitzel said in The Semenya Rule:
@MajorRage said in The Semenya Rule:
@No-Quarter I did read the article. It’s s fairly one sided piece which I’m sure will influence many. I’m not strong enough in this subject to say it’s 100 pct wrong or right.
I just take the view that every single athlete has their own advantages and disadvantages. And Semenyas advantage isn’t strong enough thst when it’s combined with 35 years of sports science research, it can overcome a doping programme.
It’s a good discussion to have tho, and I’m not going to criticize others for holding the opposite view.
So because she can't beat insane records set by drugged athletes nearly 40 years ago, her advantage isn't that great? Have you seen pictures of the women who set those records? They're freaks of scientific manipulation.
35 years of sport science. I think the 2018 all blacks would beat the 1983 by a ton
@MajorRage said in The Semenya Rule:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in The Semenya Rule:
@MajorRage said in The Semenya Rule:
@No-Quarter I did read the article. It’s s fairly one sided piece which I’m sure will influence many. I’m not strong enough in this subject to say it’s 100 pct wrong or right.
I just take the view that every single athlete has their own advantages and disadvantages. And Semenyas advantage isn’t strong enough thst when it’s combined with 35 years of sports science research, it can overcome a doping programme.
It’s a good discussion to have tho, and I’m not going to criticize others for holding the opposite view.
So because she can't beat insane records set by drugged athletes nearly 40 years ago, her advantage isn't that great? Have you seen pictures of the women who set those records? They're freaks of scientific manipulation.
35 years of sport science. I think the 2018 all blacks would beat the 1983 by a ton
I'm sorry, but that is the most absurd comparison.
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@Rancid-Schnitzel said in The Semenya Rule:
@MajorRage said in The Semenya Rule:
@No-Quarter I did read the article. It’s s fairly one sided piece which I’m sure will influence many. I’m not strong enough in this subject to say it’s 100 pct wrong or right.
I just take the view that every single athlete has their own advantages and disadvantages. And Semenyas advantage isn’t strong enough thst when it’s combined with 35 years of sports science research, it can overcome a doping programme.
It’s a good discussion to have tho, and I’m not going to criticize others for holding the opposite view.
So because she can't beat insane records set by drugged athletes nearly 40 years ago, her advantage isn't that great? Have you seen pictures of the women who set those records? They're freaks of scientific manipulation.
35 years of sport science. I think the 2018 all blacks would beat the 1983 by a ton
@MajorRage said in The Semenya Rule:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in The Semenya Rule:
@MajorRage said in The Semenya Rule:
@No-Quarter I did read the article. It’s s fairly one sided piece which I’m sure will influence many. I’m not strong enough in this subject to say it’s 100 pct wrong or right.
I just take the view that every single athlete has their own advantages and disadvantages. And Semenyas advantage isn’t strong enough thst when it’s combined with 35 years of sports science research, it can overcome a doping programme.
It’s a good discussion to have tho, and I’m not going to criticize others for holding the opposite view.
So because she can't beat insane records set by drugged athletes nearly 40 years ago, her advantage isn't that great? Have you seen pictures of the women who set those records? They're freaks of scientific manipulation.
35 years of sport science. I think the 2018 all blacks would beat the 1983 by a ton
The records at issue are by "females". It's a lot easier to get a female a lot stronger/faster by doping. Men already start with testosterone etc, so the cheating gains are far less impressive.
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@Rancid-Schnitzel said in The Semenya Rule:
@MajorRage said in The Semenya Rule:
@No-Quarter I did read the article. It’s s fairly one sided piece which I’m sure will influence many. I’m not strong enough in this subject to say it’s 100 pct wrong or right.
I just take the view that every single athlete has their own advantages and disadvantages. And Semenyas advantage isn’t strong enough thst when it’s combined with 35 years of sports science research, it can overcome a doping programme.
It’s a good discussion to have tho, and I’m not going to criticize others for holding the opposite view.
So because she can't beat insane records set by drugged athletes nearly 40 years ago, her advantage isn't that great? Have you seen pictures of the women who set those records? They're freaks of scientific manipulation.
35 years of sport science. I think the 2018 all blacks would beat the 1983 by a ton
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@jegga said in The Semenya Rule:
If there are other women with very similar biology competing does anyone have any theories as to why Semenya is the only one that’s getting all the attention?
If she’s the only one winning doesn’t that show that it’s not really important ... ?
@MajorRage said in The Semenya Rule:
@jegga said in The Semenya Rule:
If there are other women with very similar biology competing does anyone have any theories as to why Semenya is the only one that’s getting all the attention?
If she’s the only one winning doesn’t that show that it’s not really important ... ?
Who is coming 2ns and 3rd ... ?
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@MajorRage said in The Semenya Rule:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in The Semenya Rule:
@MajorRage said in The Semenya Rule:
@No-Quarter I did read the article. It’s s fairly one sided piece which I’m sure will influence many. I’m not strong enough in this subject to say it’s 100 pct wrong or right.
I just take the view that every single athlete has their own advantages and disadvantages. And Semenyas advantage isn’t strong enough thst when it’s combined with 35 years of sports science research, it can overcome a doping programme.
It’s a good discussion to have tho, and I’m not going to criticize others for holding the opposite view.
So because she can't beat insane records set by drugged athletes nearly 40 years ago, her advantage isn't that great? Have you seen pictures of the women who set those records? They're freaks of scientific manipulation.
35 years of sport science. I think the 2018 all blacks would beat the 1983 by a ton
I'm sorry, but that is the most absurd comparison.
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in The Semenya Rule:
@MajorRage said in The Semenya Rule:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in The Semenya Rule:
@MajorRage said in The Semenya Rule:
@No-Quarter I did read the article. It’s s fairly one sided piece which I’m sure will influence many. I’m not strong enough in this subject to say it’s 100 pct wrong or right.
I just take the view that every single athlete has their own advantages and disadvantages. And Semenyas advantage isn’t strong enough thst when it’s combined with 35 years of sports science research, it can overcome a doping programme.
It’s a good discussion to have tho, and I’m not going to criticize others for holding the opposite view.
So because she can't beat insane records set by drugged athletes nearly 40 years ago, her advantage isn't that great? Have you seen pictures of the women who set those records? They're freaks of scientific manipulation.
35 years of sport science. I think the 2018 all blacks would beat the 1983 by a ton
I'm sorry, but that is the most absurd comparison.
Why apologies? Because it doesn’t conform to the Semenya is a man train of thought?
I am comparing 35 years of sports science to performance enhancement from drugs.
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@Rancid-Schnitzel said in The Semenya Rule:
@MajorRage said in The Semenya Rule:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in The Semenya Rule:
@MajorRage said in The Semenya Rule:
@No-Quarter I did read the article. It’s s fairly one sided piece which I’m sure will influence many. I’m not strong enough in this subject to say it’s 100 pct wrong or right.
I just take the view that every single athlete has their own advantages and disadvantages. And Semenyas advantage isn’t strong enough thst when it’s combined with 35 years of sports science research, it can overcome a doping programme.
It’s a good discussion to have tho, and I’m not going to criticize others for holding the opposite view.
So because she can't beat insane records set by drugged athletes nearly 40 years ago, her advantage isn't that great? Have you seen pictures of the women who set those records? They're freaks of scientific manipulation.
35 years of sport science. I think the 2018 all blacks would beat the 1983 by a ton
I'm sorry, but that is the most absurd comparison.
Why apologies? Because it doesn’t conform to the Semenya is a man train of thought?
I am comparing 35 years of sports science to performance enhancement from drugs.
@MajorRage said in The Semenya Rule:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in The Semenya Rule:
@MajorRage said in The Semenya Rule:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in The Semenya Rule:
@MajorRage said in The Semenya Rule:
@No-Quarter I did read the article. It’s s fairly one sided piece which I’m sure will influence many. I’m not strong enough in this subject to say it’s 100 pct wrong or right.
I just take the view that every single athlete has their own advantages and disadvantages. And Semenyas advantage isn’t strong enough thst when it’s combined with 35 years of sports science research, it can overcome a doping programme.
It’s a good discussion to have tho, and I’m not going to criticize others for holding the opposite view.
So because she can't beat insane records set by drugged athletes nearly 40 years ago, her advantage isn't that great? Have you seen pictures of the women who set those records? They're freaks of scientific manipulation.
35 years of sport science. I think the 2018 all blacks would beat the 1983 by a ton
I'm sorry, but that is the most absurd comparison.
Why apologies? Because it doesn’t conform to the Semenya is a man train of thought?
I am comparing 35 years of sports science to performance enhancement from drugs.
Have a read of articles like this
Even a doped up Jones wasn’t able to beat FloJos doped up times, because making it undetectable made it less potent.
Better training and nutrition is not going to turn women into men, which is effectively what happened under the old doping regime. To the extent some even developed male pattern baldness.
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@MajorRage said in The Semenya Rule:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in The Semenya Rule:
@MajorRage said in The Semenya Rule:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in The Semenya Rule:
@MajorRage said in The Semenya Rule:
@No-Quarter I did read the article. It’s s fairly one sided piece which I’m sure will influence many. I’m not strong enough in this subject to say it’s 100 pct wrong or right.
I just take the view that every single athlete has their own advantages and disadvantages. And Semenyas advantage isn’t strong enough thst when it’s combined with 35 years of sports science research, it can overcome a doping programme.
It’s a good discussion to have tho, and I’m not going to criticize others for holding the opposite view.
So because she can't beat insane records set by drugged athletes nearly 40 years ago, her advantage isn't that great? Have you seen pictures of the women who set those records? They're freaks of scientific manipulation.
35 years of sport science. I think the 2018 all blacks would beat the 1983 by a ton
I'm sorry, but that is the most absurd comparison.
Why apologies? Because it doesn’t conform to the Semenya is a man train of thought?
I am comparing 35 years of sports science to performance enhancement from drugs.
Have a read of articles like this
Even a doped up Jones wasn’t able to beat FloJos doped up times, because making it undetectable made it less potent.
Better training and nutrition is not going to turn women into men, which is effectively what happened under the old doping regime. To the extent some even developed male pattern baldness.
@Kirwan said in The Semenya Rule:
Better training and nutrition is not going to turn women into men, which is effectively what happened under the old doping regime. To the extent some even developed male pattern baldness.
Yeah it’s insane what happened back then - no disagreement.
However if people are Adamant her natural masculinity is THAT much of an advantage (and to be clear, I don’t dispute that it is one), then in my view it’s reasonable to expect records from the doping era to be beaten. As not only does she enjoy the advantage they had, she also enjoys 35 years of science.
The thing I find most absurd is the expectation that she should run in an open division. But she wouldn’t even be close to competitive. Because she’s a woman!
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@Rancid-Schnitzel said in The Semenya Rule:
@MajorRage said in The Semenya Rule:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in The Semenya Rule:
@MajorRage said in The Semenya Rule:
@No-Quarter I did read the article. It’s s fairly one sided piece which I’m sure will influence many. I’m not strong enough in this subject to say it’s 100 pct wrong or right.
I just take the view that every single athlete has their own advantages and disadvantages. And Semenyas advantage isn’t strong enough thst when it’s combined with 35 years of sports science research, it can overcome a doping programme.
It’s a good discussion to have tho, and I’m not going to criticize others for holding the opposite view.
So because she can't beat insane records set by drugged athletes nearly 40 years ago, her advantage isn't that great? Have you seen pictures of the women who set those records? They're freaks of scientific manipulation.
35 years of sport science. I think the 2018 all blacks would beat the 1983 by a ton
I'm sorry, but that is the most absurd comparison.
Why apologies? Because it doesn’t conform to the Semenya is a man train of thought?
I am comparing 35 years of sports science to performance enhancement from drugs.
@MajorRage said in The Semenya Rule:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in The Semenya Rule:
@MajorRage said in The Semenya Rule:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in The Semenya Rule:
@MajorRage said in The Semenya Rule:
@No-Quarter I did read the article. It’s s fairly one sided piece which I’m sure will influence many. I’m not strong enough in this subject to say it’s 100 pct wrong or right.
I just take the view that every single athlete has their own advantages and disadvantages. And Semenyas advantage isn’t strong enough thst when it’s combined with 35 years of sports science research, it can overcome a doping programme.
It’s a good discussion to have tho, and I’m not going to criticize others for holding the opposite view.
So because she can't beat insane records set by drugged athletes nearly 40 years ago, her advantage isn't that great? Have you seen pictures of the women who set those records? They're freaks of scientific manipulation.
35 years of sport science. I think the 2018 all blacks would beat the 1983 by a ton
I'm sorry, but that is the most absurd comparison.
Why apologies? Because it doesn’t conform to the Semenya is a man train of thought?
I am comparing 35 years of sports science to performance enhancement from drugs.
Because it makes no sense. Those records have stood for nearly 40 years and are evidence that despite the massive advances in sports science, the Eastern Bloc doping programs gave their athletes monumental advantages over their competitors. The fact that Semenya hasn't broken them (I believe she got within 1 second) doesn't mean she doesn't have an unfair advantage.
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@jegga said in The Semenya Rule:
If there are other women with very similar biology competing does anyone have any theories as to why Semenya is the only one that’s getting all the attention?
If she’s the only one winning doesn’t that show that it’s not really important ... ?
@MajorRage said in The Semenya Rule:
@jegga said in The Semenya Rule:
If there are other women with very similar biology competing does anyone have any theories as to why Semenya is the only one that’s getting all the attention?
If she’s the only one winning doesn’t that show that it’s not really important ... ?
1, 2, 3 at the Olympics being DSD suggests there is an an issue.
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@Kirwan said in The Semenya Rule:
Better training and nutrition is not going to turn women into men, which is effectively what happened under the old doping regime. To the extent some even developed male pattern baldness.
Yeah it’s insane what happened back then - no disagreement.
However if people are Adamant her natural masculinity is THAT much of an advantage (and to be clear, I don’t dispute that it is one), then in my view it’s reasonable to expect records from the doping era to be beaten. As not only does she enjoy the advantage they had, she also enjoys 35 years of science.
The thing I find most absurd is the expectation that she should run in an open division. But she wouldn’t even be close to competitive. Because she’s a woman!
@MajorRage said in The Semenya Rule:
@Kirwan said in The Semenya Rule:
Better training and nutrition is not going to turn women into men, which is effectively what happened under the old doping regime. To the extent some even developed male pattern baldness.
Yeah it’s insane what happened back then - no disagreement.
However if people are Adamant her natural masculinity is THAT much of an advantage (and to be clear, I don’t dispute that it is one), then in my view it’s reasonable to expect records from the doping era to be beaten. As not only does she enjoy the advantage they had, she also enjoys 35 years of science.
The thing I find most absurd is the expectation that she should run in an open division. But she wouldn’t even be close to competitive. Because she’s a woman!
Unfortunately she isn't.
