Hurricanes 2020
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@Chester-Draws on the other hand Jack Debreczeni is 26 and played 54 games for the Rebels.
@KiwiMurph said in Hurricanes 2020:
@Chester-Draws on the other hand Jack Debreczeni is 26 and played 54 games for the Rebels.
Yes, and?
Debreczeni got to play lots of games for them because he's quite good. And as soon as he got game time for the Chiefs he showed that.
Meanwhile Garden-Bachop has struggled to make the starting position, because he's not as good. Maybe he'll come better, but saying he "hasn't had enough time" is rather bizarre -- he's played most of a season of Super Rugby (including starting a decent number of times), a season of ITM starting for Wellington, and even been selected for the Maori ABs. How much do you have to play before it is "enough" that people know how good you are?
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@KiwiMurph said in Hurricanes 2020:
@Chester-Draws on the other hand Jack Debreczeni is 26 and played 54 games for the Rebels.
Yes, and?
Debreczeni got to play lots of games for them because he's quite good. And as soon as he got game time for the Chiefs he showed that.
Meanwhile Garden-Bachop has struggled to make the starting position, because he's not as good. Maybe he'll come better, but saying he "hasn't had enough time" is rather bizarre -- he's played most of a season of Super Rugby (including starting a decent number of times), a season of ITM starting for Wellington, and even been selected for the Maori ABs. How much do you have to play before it is "enough" that people know how good you are?
Debreczeni got dropped last year for Rebels (2018) because he was so poor - they ended up shifting Hodge out of position to play 10 instead.
For what it's worth I'm no huge JGB fan - my point is to be wary of performances in Australia as there are other cases of players who look far better when they come to NZ (Taavao and Robbie Abel are two other recent examples).
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@KiwiMurph said in Hurricanes 2020:
@Chester-Draws on the other hand Jack Debreczeni is 26 and played 54 games for the Rebels.
Yes, and?
Debreczeni got to play lots of games for them because he's quite good. And as soon as he got game time for the Chiefs he showed that.
Meanwhile Garden-Bachop has struggled to make the starting position, because he's not as good. Maybe he'll come better, but saying he "hasn't had enough time" is rather bizarre -- he's played most of a season of Super Rugby (including starting a decent number of times), a season of ITM starting for Wellington, and even been selected for the Maori ABs. How much do you have to play before it is "enough" that people know how good you are?
@Chester-Draws and being not as good as BB means he hasn't had opportunities - nor should that be a black mark against a less experienced player. Particularly when they were also trying out Smith and toying with Marshall providing cover. So unless we expect him to rock up as a fully polished and influential super rugby player there has to be some time to develop. He's had 6 games for the canes which isn't enough imo to make a full judgement on where he'll end up.
I'm not sold on him by any means, but think he offers as much as Smith, who also hasn't dominated in his appearances.
Unless we snag an established player we are going to have to try a few options. And even if we do get someone proven we'll still need back ups in the squad.
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What about chucking money at Josh McKay? He looks like he could go bloody well at 10 and correct me if I’m wrong but didn’t he play 10 at school for CBH? Josh Ioane is a lock at 10 for the Landers atm so it would make sense if he broke his contract for more opportunity. Whether he actually wants to play 10 at Super is another question. He just looks to have more of a ceiling over the likes of JGB and Smith.
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@Chester-Draws and being not as good as BB means he hasn't had opportunities - nor should that be a black mark against a less experienced player. Particularly when they were also trying out Smith and toying with Marshall providing cover. So unless we expect him to rock up as a fully polished and influential super rugby player there has to be some time to develop. He's had 6 games for the canes which isn't enough imo to make a full judgement on where he'll end up.
I'm not sold on him by any means, but think he offers as much as Smith, who also hasn't dominated in his appearances.
Unless we snag an established player we are going to have to try a few options. And even if we do get someone proven we'll still need back ups in the squad.
@Paekakboyz said in Hurricanes 2020:
I'm not sold on him by any means, but think he offers as much as Smith, who also hasn't dominated in his appearances.
I think this is where teams go wrong -- they insist on trying to get guys who can dominate. If there was anyone that good, then they'd already be long since snapped up.
Instead of the Hurricanes trying to get some dominant star, why not get the best guy who can do his job and make the others look good? The Hurricanes have got good centres, they don't need an all-star first five. Smith strikes me as a guy who does his core job well enough, and allows others to do their job well.
Meanwhile the Blues have continued to try and find a star #10, so getting guys like Black, West, etc -- guys who don't kick goals well, and shovel the ball out, but once in a while look spectacular with ball in hand. They could have just got someone steady, won a few more games, and then a better player might think it's a franchise he could join. Meanwhile the Highlanders have been better served by just having Ioane do his business without trying to win the game by himself. And the Chiefs managed better with a plodding MMac than a star like DMac.
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@Paekakboyz said in Hurricanes 2020:
I'm not sold on him by any means, but think he offers as much as Smith, who also hasn't dominated in his appearances.
I think this is where teams go wrong -- they insist on trying to get guys who can dominate. If there was anyone that good, then they'd already be long since snapped up.
Instead of the Hurricanes trying to get some dominant star, why not get the best guy who can do his job and make the others look good? The Hurricanes have got good centres, they don't need an all-star first five. Smith strikes me as a guy who does his core job well enough, and allows others to do their job well.
Meanwhile the Blues have continued to try and find a star #10, so getting guys like Black, West, etc -- guys who don't kick goals well, and shovel the ball out, but once in a while look spectacular with ball in hand. They could have just got someone steady, won a few more games, and then a better player might think it's a franchise he could join. Meanwhile the Highlanders have been better served by just having Ioane do his business without trying to win the game by himself. And the Chiefs managed better with a plodding MMac than a star like DMac.
@Chester-Draws you have a higher estimation of Smith than I do. We were unhappy (ie the franchise) to lose Black but he hasn't amounted to much in his time at the Blues. I think Ioane is a rising star and has shown some real brilliance this season, so he's far more than just steady imo.
There was also a reason why the Chiefs ended up with Debraceny starting ahead of MMac, as he was doing a better job and is a genuine longer term option for the team.
As for availability, contracts are always coming up for renewal/review or ending around the world. I don't think the Canes should limit their search to NZ, as I'd agree the pickings are lean here. But that doesn't mean a better option than our currently signed crop of players is impossible to find. Whether we can foot the $$ to compete with other interested parties is another story.
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@Paekakboyz said in Hurricanes 2020:
I'm not sold on him by any means, but think he offers as much as Smith, who also hasn't dominated in his appearances.
I think this is where teams go wrong -- they insist on trying to get guys who can dominate. If there was anyone that good, then they'd already be long since snapped up.
Instead of the Hurricanes trying to get some dominant star, why not get the best guy who can do his job and make the others look good? The Hurricanes have got good centres, they don't need an all-star first five. Smith strikes me as a guy who does his core job well enough, and allows others to do their job well.
Meanwhile the Blues have continued to try and find a star #10, so getting guys like Black, West, etc -- guys who don't kick goals well, and shovel the ball out, but once in a while look spectacular with ball in hand. They could have just got someone steady, won a few more games, and then a better player might think it's a franchise he could join. Meanwhile the Highlanders have been better served by just having Ioane do his business without trying to win the game by himself. And the Chiefs managed better with a plodding MMac than a star like DMac.
@Chester-Draws said in Hurricanes 2020:
@Paekakboyz said in Hurricanes 2020:
Meanwhile the Blues have continued to try and find a star #10, so getting guys like Black, West, etc -- guys who don't kick goals well, and shovel the ball out, but once in a while look spectacular with ball in hand. They could have just got someone steady, won a few more games, and then a better player might think it's a franchise he could join. Meanwhile the Highlanders have been better served by just having Ioane do his business without trying to win the game by himself. And the Chiefs managed better with a plodding MMac than a star like DMac.
As a Blues fan I have to disagree with this.
Otere Black and West are very different players - Black is that guy who is someone steady - the problem is he doesn't take the line on nearly enough - and he also plays remarkably small - he gives it his all but he has very little power or strength to his game.
Simon Hickey and Chris Noakes also played the 'steady' role at 10 for the Blues and neither of them succeeded. Heck throw in Jimmy Gopperth and Michael Hobbs into that category too. You could also include Bryn Gatland.
The great thing about the Highlanders is they have a pattern of play that works for them. Ioane was able to sit for a season behind Sopoaga and then step in this season - he also has far more X factor to his game than the 'steady' Bryn Gatland who Ioane clearly outperformed this season at the Highlanders.
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@Paekakboyz said in Hurricanes 2020:
I'm not sold on him by any means, but think he offers as much as Smith, who also hasn't dominated in his appearances.
I think this is where teams go wrong -- they insist on trying to get guys who can dominate. If there was anyone that good, then they'd already be long since snapped up.
Instead of the Hurricanes trying to get some dominant star, why not get the best guy who can do his job and make the others look good? The Hurricanes have got good centres, they don't need an all-star first five. Smith strikes me as a guy who does his core job well enough, and allows others to do their job well.
Meanwhile the Blues have continued to try and find a star #10, so getting guys like Black, West, etc -- guys who don't kick goals well, and shovel the ball out, but once in a while look spectacular with ball in hand. They could have just got someone steady, won a few more games, and then a better player might think it's a franchise he could join. Meanwhile the Highlanders have been better served by just having Ioane do his business without trying to win the game by himself. And the Chiefs managed better with a plodding MMac than a star like DMac.
@Chester-Draws said in Hurricanes 2020:
@Paekakboyz said in Hurricanes 2020:
I'm not sold on him by any means, but think he offers as much as Smith, who also hasn't dominated in his appearances.
I think this is where teams go wrong -- they insist on trying to get guys who can dominate. If there was anyone that good, then they'd already be long since snapped up.
Instead of the Hurricanes trying to get some dominant star, why not get the best guy who can do his job and make the others look good? The Hurricanes have got good centres, they don't need an all-star first five. Smith strikes me as a guy who does his core job well enough, and allows others to do their job well.
Meanwhile the Blues have continued to try and find a star #10, so getting guys like Black, West, etc -- guys who don't kick goals well, and shovel the ball out, but once in a while look spectacular with ball in hand. They could have just got someone steady, won a few more games, and then a better player might think it's a franchise he could join. Meanwhile the Highlanders have been better served by just having Ioane do his business without trying to win the game by himself. And the Chiefs managed better with a plodding MMac than a star like DMac.
What was the last team that won the comp without an international quality 10?
Recent winners
Chiefs - Cruden
Tahs - Foley
Highlanders- Sopoaga
Canes - Barrett
Crusaders- Richie -
@Chester-Draws said in Hurricanes 2020:
@Paekakboyz said in Hurricanes 2020:
I'm not sold on him by any means, but think he offers as much as Smith, who also hasn't dominated in his appearances.
I think this is where teams go wrong -- they insist on trying to get guys who can dominate. If there was anyone that good, then they'd already be long since snapped up.
Instead of the Hurricanes trying to get some dominant star, why not get the best guy who can do his job and make the others look good? The Hurricanes have got good centres, they don't need an all-star first five. Smith strikes me as a guy who does his core job well enough, and allows others to do their job well.
Meanwhile the Blues have continued to try and find a star #10, so getting guys like Black, West, etc -- guys who don't kick goals well, and shovel the ball out, but once in a while look spectacular with ball in hand. They could have just got someone steady, won a few more games, and then a better player might think it's a franchise he could join. Meanwhile the Highlanders have been better served by just having Ioane do his business without trying to win the game by himself. And the Chiefs managed better with a plodding MMac than a star like DMac.
What was the last team that won the comp without an international quality 10?
Recent winners
Chiefs - Cruden
Tahs - Foley
Highlanders- Sopoaga
Canes - Barrett
Crusaders- Richie -
@SammyC so the obvious answer there is the Tahs
But I totally agree. A quality 10 is a huge part of the equation.
Hmmm who would be the 'worst' 1st five to lead a team to a super rugby title??
@Paekakboyz said in Hurricanes 2020:
Hmmm who would be the 'worst' 1st five to lead a team to a super rugby title??
Derick Hougaard Bulls 10 in 2007 (beat Sharks at the death).
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Jordie set to remain loyal apparently.
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Jordie set to remain loyal apparently.
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What about chucking money at Josh McKay? He looks like he could go bloody well at 10 and correct me if I’m wrong but didn’t he play 10 at school for CBH? Josh Ioane is a lock at 10 for the Landers atm so it would make sense if he broke his contract for more opportunity. Whether he actually wants to play 10 at Super is another question. He just looks to have more of a ceiling over the likes of JGB and Smith.
@Canes4life He’s signed for the Highlanders next year and I think he wants to be a Fullback articles nearly a year old https://www.planetrugby.com/josh-mckay-commits-to-highlanders/
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Jordie set to remain loyal apparently.
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How can the Blues spunk all this money on two new star acquisitions? I assume it's because they spend little on the rest of their squad
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How can the Blues spunk all this money on two new star acquisitions? I assume it's because they spend little on the rest of their squad
@canefan maybe the board all took a voluntary paycut due to thier shit performance over the past decade?
Not sure Jordie is a good fit for the Blues.
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@canefan maybe the board all took a voluntary paycut due to thier shit performance over the past decade?
Not sure Jordie is a good fit for the Blues.
@taniwharugby He'd be ok on the bench
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@canefan maybe the board all took a voluntary paycut due to thier shit performance over the past decade?
Not sure Jordie is a good fit for the Blues.
@taniwharugby said in Hurricanes 2020:
@canefan maybe the board all took a voluntary paycut due to thier shit performance over the past decade?
Not sure Jordie is a good fit for the Blues.
I don't know how super teams and their player contracts work, there is no salary cap that I knew about.... I'm not sure the Barretts will enjoy playing for the Blues after playing in the superior Canes setup for so long
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@taniwharugby said in Hurricanes 2020:
@canefan maybe the board all took a voluntary paycut due to thier shit performance over the past decade?
Not sure Jordie is a good fit for the Blues.
I don't know how super teams and their player contracts work, there is no salary cap that I knew about.... I'm not sure the Barretts will enjoy playing for the Blues after playing in the superior Canes setup for so long
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@canefan said in Hurricanes 2020:
:loudly_crying_face:
