Flag

jegga

Or cheap toilet paper

MajorRage

On the flip side, it's jolly good to see some debate going around now about the new flag.
 
 
I was working out yesterdays plan with my 3 year old son yesterday. Swimming, scooting or the beach were the options. He said swimming at the beach, which I thought was a good idea. So we got to the beach and saw others kids on scooters, he said he wanted to go scooting now.. I pointed out to him that before when I said go scooting, he said nothing, so we went to the beach. He then proceeded to shout the house down.
 
I wonder how many of the pro-red-peak team, would have a go at me for not being able to read his mind and bring his scooter.

No Quarter

And that is the flaw of a panel of 12 people choosing 4 flags that 4 million people are happy with. An impossible task.
 
They could have at least gone with 4 different designs though. Just saying. :)

taniwharugby

so how should it be done?
 
Parliament just select a flag for the 4 million people? get a panel of 12 people to choose it from hundreds of submissions? Let everyone vote on all 300 (or however many) submissions?
 
Easy to be critical of a process, but no way will satisfy everyone.

No Quarter

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying there is a better way, more that no matter what you do it is going to be an impossible task to make everyone happy. Democracy doesn't work very well for a process like this - it will always be controversial just as it was when Canada changed their flag.
 
My only sticking point is that 2 of the final 4 designs are the same. That's a poor decision IMO.

Nepia

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Crucial" data-cid="513919" data-time="1441583168">
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So no one wants anything that looks like it may be a 'logo'. Fair enough, that just leaves traditional style bands of colours and I have the perfect solution...
 
 
<img src="http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/images/i/it_rom98.gif" alt="it_rom98.gif">
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</blockquote>
That looks like the bastard child of the Magpies and Canterbury, one part good, one part evil.

Baron Silas Greenback

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="No Quarter" data-cid="513932" data-time="1441586491">
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It just highlights how shit the design is. "Oh look I stuck a silver fern and the southern cross together. Job done!".
 
Edit - and that design makes up two of our final four. And people wonder why there is so much opposition?!
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It does no such thing. How exactly does it show how supposedly shit the design is? 
Because an obscure company uses it? That is some seriously dodgy logic. The NZ flag is used on logos.... does that make it a shit design?

jegga

BSG which one do you want as our flag?

Baron Silas Greenback

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="jegga" data-cid="513943" data-time="1441588959">
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BSG which one do you want as our flag?
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I haven't actually decided. I don't like the red peak one though.

Baron Silas Greenback

It shows how muddled the debate is though. You have some people arguing against the flag because it wasnt done by a 'designer'. then some people arguing agsinst the flag because soem of the designs are similar to a logo used by a company for palstic plates.. who would have used a designer.
 
I find all of these arguments bullshit.
 
You need one reason and one reason only to like or not like a flag or proposed flag. 
 
"I dont like it" Everything else is pretty much fluff or attempts to muddy the waters.

taniwharugby

the Govt. just needs to buy the rights for the AB fern ;)

Rancid Schnitzel

I'm not a huge fan of the current flag, but if they're going to change it should be with something that is half decent, not just change for the sake of change. The 4 finalists are just shit. 2 of them are basically the current flag with a bloody great fern where the union jack was, 1 looks like something black going down a plughole, and the final one is probably the shittiest version of a silver fern flag you're ever likely to see. 
As for that Red Peak thing. In addition to looking ridiculous, is NZ really all about mountains? Certainly it would apply for places like Bhutan, Nepal and Switzerland. Norway too is obsessed with mountains and heading to the mountains is as common as heading to the beach in Australia. But are the mountains of such importance to NZ that they should be the defining feature of the nation's flag? 
I actually like the 1835 flag.

No Quarter

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Baron Silas Greenback" data-cid="513945" data-time="1441589203">
<div>
It shows how muddled the debate is though. You have some people arguing against the flag because it wasnt done by a 'designer'. then some people arguing agsinst the flag because soem of the designs are similar to a logo used by a company for palstic plates.. who would have used a designer.
 
I find all of these arguments bullshit.
 
You need one reason and one reason only to like or not like a flag or proposed flag. 
 
"I dont like it" Everything else is pretty much fluff or attempts to muddy the waters.
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</blockquote>
 
I like Red Peak because a lot more thought has gone into it. I can also understand why some people don't like it.
 
I said earlier that I could live with one of Lockwood's designs, but there is not a lot of thought gone into it, to the point that the exact same design has been used by multiple different people and companies that are completely separate to each other becuase all he and they have done is stuck a silver fern and a southern cross together. That's why I don't really like it.
 
If someone says they like or dislike something, the natural thing to do is explain why.

mariner4life

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Crucial" data-cid="513919" data-time="1441583168">
<div>
So no one wants anything that looks like it may be a 'logo'. Fair enough, that just leaves traditional style bands of colours and I have the perfect solution...
 
 
<img src="http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/images/i/it_rom98.gif" alt="it_rom98.gif">
</div>
</blockquote>
For accuracy, this should have a big Blue and Gold boot print stamped on it

Crucial

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="mariner4life" data-cid="513954" data-time="1441590148">
<div>
For accuracy, this should have a big Blue and Gold boot print stamped on it
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</blockquote>
 
 
Kick a man while he's down why don't you.

mariner4life

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Crucial" data-cid="513956" data-time="1441590430">
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Kick a man while he's down why don't you.
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</blockquote>
just call me Troy Flavell

Tim

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Crucial" data-cid="513919" data-time="1441583168">
<div>
So no one wants anything that looks like it may be a 'logo'. Fair enough, that just leaves traditional style bands of colours and I have the perfect solution...
 
 
<img src="http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/images/i/it_rom98.gif" alt="it_rom98.gif">
</div>
</blockquote>
 
<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Republic_(18th_century)'>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Republic_(18th_century)</a>
 
<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_the_Udmurt_Republic'>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_the_Udmurt_Republic</a>

hydro11

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="taniwharugby" data-cid="513937" data-time="1441587791">
<div>
so how should it be done?
 
Parliament just select a flag for the 4 million people? get a panel of 12 people to choose it from hundreds of submissions? Let everyone vote on all 300 (or however many) submissions?
 
Easy to be critical of a process, but no way will satisfy everyone.
</div>
</blockquote>
 
I think the problem with the process was that it was a top down process rather than a bottom up process. A flag referendum is a big debate and it is all happening quite quickly. I think there should be at least a year between each stage in the process. The cut was made from 40 flags to 4 in three weeks. That isn't really enough time for people to make up their minds. I think there probably should have been more public input on the final 40 designs. I also think there should have been more time to debate. I think the panel did the right thing by selecting two Lockwood designs because there are some people who strongly preferred one colour scheme to the other. The problem was that I never heard anyone actually say they liked the other silver fern or the koru.
 
I think Red Peak must be added as an option but I probably wonâ€t vote for it. I like the black and blue Lockwood fern.

Crucial

Of all the flag options I have ever seen, visually I still like this one and it is a pity that such a good looking flag now holds associations that would see it struggle in a vote.
 
<img src="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/30/Tino_Rangatiratanga_Maori_sovereignty_movement_flag.svg/250px-Tino_Rangatiratanga_Maori_sovereignty_movement_flag.svg.png" alt="250px-Tino_Rangatiratanga_Maori_sovereig">

Baron Silas Greenback

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="No Quarter" data-cid="513953" data-time="1441590009">
<div>
I like Red Peak because a lot more thought has gone into it. I can also understand why some people don't like it.
 
I said earlier that I could live with one of Lockwood's designs, but there is not a lot of thought gone into it, to the point that the exact same design has been used by multiple different people and companies that are completely separate to each other becuase all he and they have done is stuck a silver fern and a southern cross together. That's why I don't really like it.
 
If someone says they like or dislike something, the natural thing to do is explain why.
</div>
</blockquote>
 
 
A lot more thought has gone into it? How exactly do you measure that? I could say the red peak didnt have much thought put into it as well.
Impossible to measure. Just another example of the facile nature of many of the arguments.
 
Put a red triangle for a mountain (like all NZ is represented by that).. then colour around it with black and blue?

The Silver Fern

Flag