RWC: England v Argentina (Pool C)
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@MiketheSnow An extension of your argument. Don’t cheat on your tax returns (but people do). The fact is the incentives in professional sport are now at a level that players are going to break laws to win. It’s why Lance Armstrong won all those Tours de France denying he was drug enhanced when he was. It’s money that drives players at this level to infringe. Rugby wants to pretend it’s still an amateur sport. It isn’t. It’s big business. I’m not arguing that players should be put in peril for our entertainment. But. I’m saying if the sanctions system destroys the game as spectacle, the money won’t flow. Kearns is right. It will kill the sport.
@MrDenmore said in RWC: England v Argentina (Pool C):
@MiketheSnow An extension of your argument. Don’t cheat on your tax returns (but people do). The fact is the incentives in professional sport are now at a level that players are going to break laws to win. It’s why Lance Armstrong won all those Tours de France denying he was drug enhanced when he was. It’s money that drives players at this level to infringe. Rugby wants to pretend it’s still an amateur sport. It isn’t. It’s big business. I’m not arguing that players should be put in peril for our entertainment. But. I’m saying if the sanctions system destroys the game as spectacle, the money won’t flow. Kearns is right. It will kill the sport.
Using Kearns to support your argument.
You're embarrassing yourself now.
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thought this at the start, but England have shown themselves to be quite well drilled in the backline. Get the ball moving nice & quick. Sharp.
Thats totally the game now. -
@Bones said in RWC: England v Argentina (Pool C):
@Gunner said in RWC: England v Argentina (Pool C):
@MiketheSnow said in RWC: England v Argentina (Pool C):
@MrDenmore said in RWC: England v Argentina (Pool C):
@Gunner Quite. And the paying public might well ask for their money back. Even better, a class action against the piston wristed gibbons who run World Rugby.
Give it up ffs.
The guy went for a hard hit against arguably England's best / most influential player.
He got it wrong.
He was suitably punished.
It's not that difficult.
I don’t believe anyone is arguing about the crime and punishment. We can park that.
It’s about common sense and not punishing a team for one of their players actions.
Red cards have become more common than hot dinners, and I like many others see it as a problem for the game.
What the hell is this? Are you another wanting penalties removed from the game? Knock ons should be play on? We wouldn't want to punish a team for the actions of a player! It's a fricken team game.
The problem isn't the cards.
You’re being totally ridiculous now.
The point is red cards get dished out every second or third game nowadays, so do we really want to see 1/3 of rugby games decided by red cards?
I don’t, and I suspect thousands of other people don’t. People will stop watching, simple as that.
@Gunner said in RWC: England v Argentina (Pool C):
@Bones said in RWC: England v Argentina (Pool C):
@Gunner said in RWC: England v Argentina (Pool C):
@MiketheSnow said in RWC: England v Argentina (Pool C):
@MrDenmore said in RWC: England v Argentina (Pool C):
@Gunner Quite. And the paying public might well ask for their money back. Even better, a class action against the piston wristed gibbons who run World Rugby.
Give it up ffs.
The guy went for a hard hit against arguably England's best / most influential player.
He got it wrong.
He was suitably punished.
It's not that difficult.
I don’t believe anyone is arguing about the crime and punishment. We can park that.
It’s about common sense and not punishing a team for one of their players actions.
Red cards have become more common than hot dinners, and I like many others see it as a problem for the game.
What the hell is this? Are you another wanting penalties removed from the game? Knock ons should be play on? We wouldn't want to punish a team for the actions of a player! It's a fricken team game.
The problem isn't the cards.
You’re being totally ridiculous now.
The point is red cards get dished out every second or third game nowadays, so do we really want to see 1/3 of rugby games decided by red cards?
I don’t, and I suspect thousands of other people don’t. People will stop watching, simple as that.
I'm not the one who started being ridiculous. You've changed your point now. So you don't mind a team being punished for the actions of a player?
Is it that hard to understand the cards aren't the problem? It's odd, I thought most of the time they don't just appear out of midair. I wonder why we would see cards in a game?
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@MrDenmore said in RWC: England v Argentina (Pool C):
@MiketheSnow An extension of your argument. Don’t cheat on your tax returns (but people do). The fact is the incentives in professional sport are now at a level that players are going to break laws to win. It’s why Lance Armstrong won all those Tours de France denying he was drug enhanced when he was. It’s money that drives players at this level to infringe. Rugby wants to pretend it’s still an amateur sport. It isn’t. It’s big business. I’m not arguing that players should be put in peril for our entertainment. But. I’m saying if the sanctions system destroys the game as spectacle, the money won’t flow. Kearns is right. It will kill the sport.
Using Kearns to support your argument.
You're embarrassing yourself now.
@MiketheSnow No I’m saying that if a fluffybunny like Kearns earns my agreement he must have a point.
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@MiketheSnow said in RWC: England v Argentina (Pool C):
@Gunner said in RWC: England v Argentina (Pool C):
@MiketheSnow said in RWC: England v Argentina (Pool C):
@MrDenmore said in RWC: England v Argentina (Pool C):
@Gunner Quite. And the paying public might well ask for their money back. Even better, a class action against the piston wristed gibbons who run World Rugby.
Give it up ffs.
The guy went for a hard hit against arguably England's best / most influential player.
He got it wrong.
He was suitably punished.
It's not that difficult.
I don’t believe anyone is arguing about the crime and punishment. We can park that.
It’s about common sense and not punishing a team for one of their players actions.
Red cards have become more common than hot dinners, and I like many others see it as a problem for the game.
This is the problem with modern life.
Let's look at the effect, not the cause.
This is very simple to eradicate.
Start your tackle at the waist.
This is about poor tackling technique.
Nothing more, nothing less.
Unfortunately, it is risk and reward - if you spend all game tackling around the waist and below, you're allowing teams to pass in the tackle and if you don't draw a red card, you'll probably lose against elite opposition
What you really need is for world rugby to legislate only tackles around the waist and lower - and then if you slip up to the chest it's only a penalty instead of needing a red.
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Fuck me England just can't create space.
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Been a while since I watched England but they are going to be very hard to beat. Strong pack, organised defense and they even have a couple of players that are a threat with ball in hand. They'll also take confidence from this game despite the card.
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@booboo Yes, I’m sure it was a send-off in your day when you were playing for the St Peter’s under-15s. But this is professional sport at the highest level. It’s big business. You just can’t have a game destroyed as a spectacle because one player made a high tackle. I’m sorry, but this is just commercial reality. You can argue about it all you want. But you need to separate out your undoubted and admirable love for the the sport and its status as paid entertainment. There are sanctions available for foul play. They are monetary.
@MrDenmore said in RWC: England v Argentina (Pool C):
@booboo Yes, I’m sure it was a send-off in your day when you were playing for the St Peter’s under-15s. But this is professional sport at the highest level. It’s big business. You just can’t have a game destroyed as a spectacle because one player made a high tackle. I’m sorry, but this is just commercial reality. You can argue about it all you want. But you need to separate out your undoubted and admirable love for the the sport and its status as paid entertainment. There are sanctions available for foul play. They are monetary.
I have some sympathy for what you're trying to get at, but you're taking it way too far. At the extreme, under your system, a team could repeatedly offend in a RWC final knowing that only financial sanctions await, and safe in the knowledge that a rich backer would cover their bills
You would also see a deluge of injuries (the red card rules weren't made for no reason) as a result of more foul play, which which would lose viewers and grass roots players. So the business case argument also doesn't stack up
All that said, it is certainly frustrating to see games ruined by marginal red card offenses (not implying this particular one was marginal). I wouldnt be averse to the officials reviewing an incident live and if unsure between yellow and red, having the power to place someone instantly on report, or issuing some hybrid "orange" card worth 20mins or something. Yeah it adds more layers of discussion and interpretation, so not ideal, but neither is a controversial red card in the 5th minute.
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The red card spoiled the game a bit.
But not as much as Argentina being trash.
I've seen teams win with an early red. (In one case a team win despite two red cards in the first half.)
@Chester-Draws said in RWC: England v Argentina (Pool C):
The red card spoiled the game a bit.
But not as much as Argentina being trash.
I've seen teams win with an early red. (In one case a team win despite two red cards in the first half.)
Yeah they're not the smartest of teams eh. Dumb stuff at dumb times.
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@MrDenmore said in RWC: England v Argentina (Pool C):
@booboo Yes, I’m sure it was a send-off in your day when you were playing for the St Peter’s under-15s. But this is professional sport at the highest level. It’s big business. You just can’t have a game destroyed as a spectacle because one player made a high tackle. I’m sorry, but this is just commercial reality. You can argue about it all you want. But you need to separate out your undoubted and admirable love for the the sport and its status as paid entertainment. There are sanctions available for foul play. They are monetary.
I have some sympathy for what you're trying to get at, but you're taking it way too far. At the extreme, under your system, a team could repeatedly offend in a RWC final knowing that only financial sanctions await, and safe in the knowledge that a rich backer would cover their bills
You would also see a deluge of injuries (the red card rules weren't made for no reason) as a result of more foul play, which which would lose viewers and grass roots players. So the business case argument also doesn't stack up
All that said, it is certainly frustrating to see games ruined by marginal red card offenses (not implying this particular one was marginal). I wouldnt be averse to the officials reviewing an incident live and if unsure between yellow and red, having the power to place someone instantly on report, or issuing some hybrid "orange" card worth 20mins or something. Yeah it adds more layers of discussion and interpretation, so not ideal, but neither is a controversial red card in the 5th minute.
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@MiketheSnow I agree. It’s not that difficult. It wrecked the viewing experience. It’s a market mate. It’s a very competitive market in world sport. But you go on being super righteous.
@MrDenmore said in RWC: England v Argentina (Pool C):
@MiketheSnow I agree. It’s not that difficult. It wrecked the viewing experience. It’s a market mate. It’s a very competitive market in world sport. But you go on being super righteous.
... lost the phone for a few minutes as Ms boo jr listens to music doing the dishes ...
But ...
It's sport, it's random. You can't control the outcome. This is entirely Lavinini's fault. He messed up his sport, played outside the laws thereof and paid the world penalty.
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Been a while since I watched England but they are going to be very hard to beat. Strong pack, organised defense and they even have a couple of players that are a threat with ball in hand. They'll also take confidence from this game despite the card.
@No-Quarter said in RWC: England v Argentina (Pool C):
Been a while since I watched England but they are going to be very hard to beat. Strong pack, organised defense and they even have a couple of players that are a threat with ball in hand. They'll also take confidence from this game despite the card.
They'll take confidence, but England still look too defensive for me. A big game is won on two or three chances, and they don't look comfortable taking risks in those situations.
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@Gunner said in RWC: England v Argentina (Pool C):
@Bones said in RWC: England v Argentina (Pool C):
@Gunner said in RWC: England v Argentina (Pool C):
@MiketheSnow said in RWC: England v Argentina (Pool C):
@MrDenmore said in RWC: England v Argentina (Pool C):
@Gunner Quite. And the paying public might well ask for their money back. Even better, a class action against the piston wristed gibbons who run World Rugby.
Give it up ffs.
The guy went for a hard hit against arguably England's best / most influential player.
He got it wrong.
He was suitably punished.
It's not that difficult.
I don’t believe anyone is arguing about the crime and punishment. We can park that.
It’s about common sense and not punishing a team for one of their players actions.
Red cards have become more common than hot dinners, and I like many others see it as a problem for the game.
What the hell is this? Are you another wanting penalties removed from the game? Knock ons should be play on? We wouldn't want to punish a team for the actions of a player! It's a fricken team game.
The problem isn't the cards.
You’re being totally ridiculous now.
The point is red cards get dished out every second or third game nowadays, so do we really want to see 1/3 of rugby games decided by red cards?
I don’t, and I suspect thousands of other people don’t. People will stop watching, simple as that.
I'm not the one who started being ridiculous. You've changed your point now. So you don't mind a team being punished for the actions of a player?
Is it that hard to understand the cards aren't the problem? It's odd, I thought most of the time they don't just appear out of midair. I wonder why we would see cards in a game?
@Bones said in RWC: England v Argentina (Pool C):
@Gunner said in RWC: England v Argentina (Pool C):
@Bones said in RWC: England v Argentina (Pool C):
@Gunner said in RWC: England v Argentina (Pool C):
@MiketheSnow said in RWC: England v Argentina (Pool C):
@MrDenmore said in RWC: England v Argentina (Pool C):
@Gunner Quite. And the paying public might well ask for their money back. Even better, a class action against the piston wristed gibbons who run World Rugby.
Give it up ffs.
The guy went for a hard hit against arguably England's best / most influential player.
He got it wrong.
He was suitably punished.
It's not that difficult.
I don’t believe anyone is arguing about the crime and punishment. We can park that.
It’s about common sense and not punishing a team for one of their players actions.
Red cards have become more common than hot dinners, and I like many others see it as a problem for the game.
What the hell is this? Are you another wanting penalties removed from the game? Knock ons should be play on? We wouldn't want to punish a team for the actions of a player! It's a fricken team game.
The problem isn't the cards.
You’re being totally ridiculous now.
The point is red cards get dished out every second or third game nowadays, so do we really want to see 1/3 of rugby games decided by red cards?
I don’t, and I suspect thousands of other people don’t. People will stop watching, simple as that.
I'm not the one who started being ridiculous. You've changed your point now. So you don't mind a team being punished for the actions of a player?
Is it that hard to understand the cards aren't the problem? It's odd, I thought most of the time they don't just appear out of midair. I wonder why we would see cards in a game?
Can I have some of whatever you’re smoking?
I have not changed my point.
It’s simple, I think the amount of red cards being handed out these days is ruining too many rugby games.
You don’t.
We could go round in circles all night but instead let’s just agree to disagree.
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@MrDenmore said in RWC: England v Argentina (Pool C):
@booboo Yes, I’m sure it was a send-off in your day when you were playing for the St Peter’s under-15s. But this is professional sport at the highest level. It’s big business. You just can’t have a game destroyed as a spectacle because one player made a high tackle. I’m sorry, but this is just commercial reality. You can argue about it all you want. But you need to separate out your undoubted and admirable love for the the sport and its status as paid entertainment. There are sanctions available for foul play. They are monetary.
I have some sympathy for what you're trying to get at, but you're taking it way too far. At the extreme, under your system, a team could repeatedly offend in a RWC final knowing that only financial sanctions await, and safe in the knowledge that a rich backer would cover their bills
You would also see a deluge of injuries (the red card rules weren't made for no reason) as a result of more foul play, which which would lose viewers and grass roots players. So the business case argument also doesn't stack up
All that said, it is certainly frustrating to see games ruined by marginal red card offenses (not implying this particular one was marginal). I wouldnt be averse to the officials reviewing an incident live and if unsure between yellow and red, having the power to place someone instantly on report, or issuing some hybrid "orange" card worth 20mins or something. Yeah it adds more layers of discussion and interpretation, so not ideal, but neither is a controversial red card in the 5th minute.
@voodoo thanks for your considered response. I agree that you can’t just let teams cynically go for fouls to win the game, knowing they can cover the penalty later. But think about this: If a valued player infringes at a red card level, he doesn’t come back. He’s off. He’s replaced but there’s no guarantee the replacement is of a similar quality. He also faces a judicial panel afterwards who may apply additional sanctions. I think this is sufficient to achieve what you desire, which is fewer professional fouls.
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@MiketheSnow said in RWC: England v Argentina (Pool C):
@MrDenmore said in RWC: England v Argentina (Pool C):
@Gunner Quite. And the paying public might well ask for their money back. Even better, a class action against the piston wristed gibbons who run World Rugby.
Give it up ffs.
The guy went for a hard hit against arguably England's best / most influential player.
He got it wrong.
He was suitably punished.
It's not that difficult.
I don’t believe anyone is arguing about the crime and punishment. We can park that.
It’s about common sense and not punishing a team for one of their players actions.
Red cards have become more common than hot dinners, and I like many others see it as a problem for the game.
@Gunner said in RWC: England v Argentina (Pool C):
@MiketheSnow said in RWC: England v Argentina (Pool C):
@MrDenmore said in RWC: England v Argentina (Pool C):
@Gunner Quite. And the paying public might well ask for their money back. Even better, a class action against the piston wristed gibbons who run World Rugby.
Give it up ffs.
The guy went for a hard hit against arguably England's best / most influential player.
He got it wrong.
He was suitably punished.
It's not that difficult.
I don’t believe anyone is arguing about the crime and punishment. We can park that.
It’s about common sense and not punishing a team for one of their players actions.
Red cards have become more common than hot dinners, and I like many others see it as a problem for the game.
Say for example one of your players throws a stupid quick throw in that gets intercepted... let's not punish that with 5 points ...
