Judiciary Happenings
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Guess what I saw on an Irish Rugby site?
Yep.
With more than a hint of resemblance to the infamous spear tackle by Keven Mealamu and Tana Umaga that ended Brian O’Driscoll’s 2005 Lions tour, the Azzurri props upended number 8 Duane Vermuelen after the referee’s whistle had blown to signal a penalty for Conor O’Shea’s side.
@Crucial said in Judiciary Happenings:
Guess what I saw on an Irish Rugby site?
Yep.
With more than a hint of resemblance to the infamous spear tackle by Keven Mealamu and Tana Umaga that ended Brian O’Driscoll’s 2005 Lions tour, the Azzurri props upended number 8 Duane Vermuelen after the referee’s whistle had blown to signal a penalty for Conor O’Shea’s side.
No resemblance whatsoever. And the saffa victim didn't carry on loik he could have doid either
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@Crucial said in Judiciary Happenings:
Guess what I saw on an Irish Rugby site?
Yep.
With more than a hint of resemblance to the infamous spear tackle by Keven Mealamu and Tana Umaga that ended Brian O’Driscoll’s 2005 Lions tour, the Azzurri props upended number 8 Duane Vermuelen after the referee’s whistle had blown to signal a penalty for Conor O’Shea’s side.
No resemblance whatsoever. And the saffa victim didn't carry on loik he could have doid either
@canefan said in Judiciary Happenings:
@Crucial said in Judiciary Happenings:
Guess what I saw on an Irish Rugby site?
Yep.
With more than a hint of resemblance to the infamous spear tackle by Keven Mealamu and Tana Umaga that ended Brian O’Driscoll’s 2005 Lions tour, the Azzurri props upended number 8 Duane Vermuelen after the referee’s whistle had blown to signal a penalty for Conor O’Shea’s side.
No resemblance whatsoever. And the saffa victim didn't carry on loik he could have doid either
When we had Irish trolls turn up in the past thrashwanking about St Brian I used to ask them if they had ever seen any player anywhere behave like that after an injury and they changed the subject every time.
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This discussion is most amusing.
Whomsoever says both Italian props shouldn't have gone is some form of leading imbecile. As someone who has been dumped on their head in a game of Rugby, let me say that they're lucky to only have three weeks.
Vaffanculo
Happy rumday from Hobart.
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@pukunui said in Judiciary Happenings:
@Stargazer said in Judiciary Happenings:
Tomás Lavanini suspended for 4 games
Argentina second-row Tomás Lavanini received a red card for an act of foul play contrary to Law 9.13 (dangerous tackle) in Argentina’s Rugby World Cup 2019 match against England on 5 October. Lavanini attended a disciplinary hearing in Tokyo on 7 October before an independent judicial panel chaired by Adam Casselden SC (Australia) with former international coach Frank Hadden (Scotland) and former international referee Donal Courtney (Ireland). Lavanini admitted the act of foul play and accepted that it warranted a red card. He accepted that given his **previous disciplinary record he was not entitled to the full 50 per cent discount from the six-game entry point.** Having considered all the evidence and after hearing from the player and his legal representative, the panel imposed a sanction of four matches. The player will miss Argentina’s remaining pool match against USA on 9 October and his new club Leicester Tigers’ next three matches. He is free to play from 1 November.Ha! What a fucking joke. Why the hell are they giving any “discounts” let alone to someone with a poor record?
They are determined to make the whole process as inconsistent as possible.
It is actually very consistent.
Previous discounts have set a precedent for pleading guilty and playing nice with the judiciary. This follows those precedents.IMO discounts for pleading guilty are bullshit and encourage players to admit something that they would prefer to plead a case on.
@Crucial said in Judiciary Happenings:
@pukunui said in Judiciary Happenings:
@Stargazer said in Judiciary Happenings:
Tomás Lavanini suspended for 4 games
Argentina second-row Tomás Lavanini received a red card for an act of foul play contrary to Law 9.13 (dangerous tackle) in Argentina’s Rugby World Cup 2019 match against England on 5 October. Lavanini attended a disciplinary hearing in Tokyo on 7 October before an independent judicial panel chaired by Adam Casselden SC (Australia) with former international coach Frank Hadden (Scotland) and former international referee Donal Courtney (Ireland). Lavanini admitted the act of foul play and accepted that it warranted a red card. He accepted that given his **previous disciplinary record he was not entitled to the full 50 per cent discount from the six-game entry point.** Having considered all the evidence and after hearing from the player and his legal representative, the panel imposed a sanction of four matches. The player will miss Argentina’s remaining pool match against USA on 9 October and his new club Leicester Tigers’ next three matches. He is free to play from 1 November.Ha! What a fucking joke. Why the hell are they giving any “discounts” let alone to someone with a poor record?
They are determined to make the whole process as inconsistent as possible.
It is actually very consistent.
Previous discounts have set a precedent for pleading guilty and playing nice with the judiciary. This follows those precedents.Agree. And the other reasoning for discounts were consistent too.
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@Machpants They have 6 props in their squad:
Simone FERRARI (Benetton Rugby, 23 caps)
Andrea LOVOTTI (Zebre Rugby Club, 36 caps)*
Tiziano PASQUALI (Benetton Rugby, 19 caps)
Nicola QUAGLIO (Benetton Rugby, 10 caps)*
Marco RICCIONI (Benetton Rugby, 2 caps)*
Federico ZANI (Benetton Rugby 8 caps)@Stargazer said in Judiciary Happenings:
@Machpants They have 6 props in their squad:
Simone FERRARI (Benetton Rugby, 23 caps)
Andrea LOVOTTI (Zebre Rugby Club, 36 caps)*
Tiziano PASQUALI (Benetton Rugby, 19 caps)
Nicola QUAGLIO (Benetton Rugby, 10 caps)*
Marco RICCIONI (Benetton Rugby, 2 caps)*
Federico ZANI (Benetton Rugby 8 caps)Ferrari has a hamstring injury and Riccioni has concussion so unless both recover soon Italy will need at least 2 replacement props, possibly more depending on whether they are LHs or THs.
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@Bovidae can they release the suspended players as a matter of protocol?
@ACT-Crusader Owen Francini could be there in 24 hours....
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Guess what I saw on an Irish Rugby site?
Yep.
With more than a hint of resemblance to the infamous spear tackle by Keven Mealamu and Tana Umaga that ended Brian O’Driscoll’s 2005 Lions tour, the Azzurri props upended number 8 Duane Vermuelen after the referee’s whistle had blown to signal a penalty for Conor O’Shea’s side.
@Crucial said in Judiciary Happenings:
Guess what I saw on an Irish Rugby site?
Yep.
With more than a hint of resemblance to the infamous spear tackle by Keven Mealamu and Tana Umaga that ended Brian O’Driscoll’s 2005 Lions tour, the Azzurri props upended number 8 Duane Vermuelen after the referee’s whistle had blown to signal a penalty for Conor O’Shea’s side.
To be honest, when I saw it going on in the background, my first thought was that it was rather reminiscent of BOD-gate.
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@Stargazer said in Judiciary Happenings:
@Machpants They have 6 props in their squad:
Simone FERRARI (Benetton Rugby, 23 caps)
Andrea LOVOTTI (Zebre Rugby Club, 36 caps)*
Tiziano PASQUALI (Benetton Rugby, 19 caps)
Nicola QUAGLIO (Benetton Rugby, 10 caps)*
Marco RICCIONI (Benetton Rugby, 2 caps)*
Federico ZANI (Benetton Rugby 8 caps)Ferrari has a hamstring injury and Riccioni has concussion so unless both recover soon Italy will need at least 2 replacement props, possibly more depending on whether they are LHs or THs.
@Bovidae said in Judiciary Happenings:
@Stargazer said in Judiciary Happenings:
@Machpants They have 6 props in their squad:
Simone FERRARI (Benetton Rugby, 23 caps)
Andrea LOVOTTI (Zebre Rugby Club, 36 caps)*
Tiziano PASQUALI (Benetton Rugby, 19 caps)
Nicola QUAGLIO (Benetton Rugby, 10 caps)*
Marco RICCIONI (Benetton Rugby, 2 caps)*
Federico ZANI (Benetton Rugby 8 caps)Ferrari has a hamstring injury and Riccioni has concussion so unless both recover soon Italy will need at least 2 replacement props, possibly more depending on whether they are LHs or THs.
I just read on the Italian Rugby Federation's website that they have called up replacements for Ferrari and Riccioni, who have already returned to Italy. The replacement props are Giosuè Zilocchi (TH) and Danilo Fischetti (LH).
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DISCIPLINARY UPDATE: GUILLERMO PUJADAS (URUGUAY)
Uruguay replacement Guillermo Pujadas has been cited for an act of foul play contrary to Law 9.27 (unsportsmanlike conduct) in their Rugby World Cup 2019 Pool D match against Wales on 13 October. The player will attend a hearing before an independent Judicial Committee chaired by Adam Casselden SC (Australia) joined by former international players Leon Lloyd (England) and Stefan Terblanche (South Africa). The hearing will take place in Tokyo at a date and time to be agreed with the player and his union in light of his travel commitments..
I can't remember the incident. Law 9.27 offences and possible suspensions:
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DISCIPLINARY UPDATE: PAULA NGAUAMO (TONGA)
Tonga hooker Paula Ngauamo has been cited for an act of foul play contrary to Law 9.12 (kicking) in their Rugby World Cup 2019 Pool C match against USA on 13 October. The player will attend a hearing before an independent Judicial Committee chaired by Alan Hudson (Canada) joined by former international player Stefan Terblanche (South Africa) and former referee Valeriu Toma (Romania). The hearing will take place in Tokyo at 10:00 on Tuesday, 15 October.
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As expected:
Bundee Aki suspended for 3 games
Ireland centre Bundee Aki attended a disciplinary hearing on 14 October having received a red card from referee Nic Berry for an act of foul play contrary to Law 9.13 (dangerous tackle) in Ireland’s Rugby World Cup 2019 Pool A match against Samoa on 12 October. The independent Judicial Committee was chaired by Adam Casselden SC (Australia) joined by former international coach Frank Hadden (Scotland) and former referee Valeriu Toma (Romania). The player sought to overturn the red card. Having considered all the angles of the incident, together with evidence from the player and his representatives, the committee upheld the decision of the referee. The committee considered the High Tackle Sanction Framework and decided the following: * There was direct contact of the player’s left shoulder to the ball carrier’s head * The Judicial Committee did not accept that there was a low degree of danger * Although the tackle occurred quickly, the player’s tackle height was high and it was accepted he did not make a definite attempt to change his height in order to avoid the ball carrier’s head * The committee did not accept that there was sufficient evidence of a sudden drop in the ball carrier‘s height * The tackle was an attempted dominant tackle, rather than a reactionary tackle, and in any event there was no immediate release as the player wrapped his arms around the Samoa No.10 * The player was in open space and had a clear line of sight before the contact * There are accordingly no clear and obvious mitigating factors Therefore, on the balance of probabilities, the committee did not find that the referee’s decision was wrong and the red card was upheld. Given the above outcomes, the committee applied World Rugby’s mandatory minimum mid-range entry point, which was introduced in 2017 to protect player welfare, deter high contact and prevent head injuries. This resulted in a starting point of a six-week suspension. Taking into account the mitigating factors that are considered in relation to sanction, including the player’s good disciplinary record, the committee reduced the six-week entry point by the maximum permitted three weeks, resulting in a sanction of three weeks, which equates to three matches in the context of Rugby World Cup 2019. Aki will miss Ireland’s quarter-final against New Zealand on 19 October, the semi-final and final of Rugby World Cup 2019 should Ireland qualify or should Ireland not qualify for these games, the player’s next club match or matches with Connacht in the PRO14 on his return from international duty. -
As expected:
Bundee Aki suspended for 3 games
Ireland centre Bundee Aki attended a disciplinary hearing on 14 October having received a red card from referee Nic Berry for an act of foul play contrary to Law 9.13 (dangerous tackle) in Ireland’s Rugby World Cup 2019 Pool A match against Samoa on 12 October. The independent Judicial Committee was chaired by Adam Casselden SC (Australia) joined by former international coach Frank Hadden (Scotland) and former referee Valeriu Toma (Romania). The player sought to overturn the red card. Having considered all the angles of the incident, together with evidence from the player and his representatives, the committee upheld the decision of the referee. The committee considered the High Tackle Sanction Framework and decided the following: * There was direct contact of the player’s left shoulder to the ball carrier’s head * The Judicial Committee did not accept that there was a low degree of danger * Although the tackle occurred quickly, the player’s tackle height was high and it was accepted he did not make a definite attempt to change his height in order to avoid the ball carrier’s head * The committee did not accept that there was sufficient evidence of a sudden drop in the ball carrier‘s height * The tackle was an attempted dominant tackle, rather than a reactionary tackle, and in any event there was no immediate release as the player wrapped his arms around the Samoa No.10 * The player was in open space and had a clear line of sight before the contact * There are accordingly no clear and obvious mitigating factors Therefore, on the balance of probabilities, the committee did not find that the referee’s decision was wrong and the red card was upheld. Given the above outcomes, the committee applied World Rugby’s mandatory minimum mid-range entry point, which was introduced in 2017 to protect player welfare, deter high contact and prevent head injuries. This resulted in a starting point of a six-week suspension. Taking into account the mitigating factors that are considered in relation to sanction, including the player’s good disciplinary record, the committee reduced the six-week entry point by the maximum permitted three weeks, resulting in a sanction of three weeks, which equates to three matches in the context of Rugby World Cup 2019. Aki will miss Ireland’s quarter-final against New Zealand on 19 October, the semi-final and final of Rugby World Cup 2019 should Ireland qualify or should Ireland not qualify for these games, the player’s next club match or matches with Connacht in the PRO14 on his return from international duty. -
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@antipodean said in Judiciary Happenings:
@Stargazer said in Judiciary Happenings:
Maybe they'll get thrown out of the tournament? Oh wait....
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There is one thing I can't quite grasp about the new high tackle framework.
If you have bad technique and accidentally strike a player in the head with your arm or shoulder you are going to have a very bad day. That I get.
But if you have bad technique and cause a head clash with a player. It's deemed an accident and play on. This happened in the Japan Scotland game.
Now I know that nobody is charging round the field headfirst trying to maim people. But if all this is about protecting players heads, then surely the type of tackles that cause headclashes should be looked at as well.
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I absolutely hate the current framework.
I think it's pretty absurd that you can get a red card for a MISTAKE, for incidental contact with an attacker who had ducked, slipped, or otherwise initiated contact with his head.
But I think its MASSIVELY absurd that We them say "ok, you got a red card and probably cost your team a game, but we are still going to hit you with a 6 week suspension, and no matter what the mitigating circumstances, that will never be less than 3 games".
I understand having a starting point for a suspension, but I see no reason for a committee to not have the power to say "ok, thats stil a red under current rules, but there was no intent / there was an attacker who initiated contact/ the contact was unavoidable etc, and hence no suspension is required (or 1 or 2 games, whatever)
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I absolutely hate the current framework.
I think it's pretty absurd that you can get a red card for a MISTAKE, for incidental contact with an attacker who had ducked, slipped, or otherwise initiated contact with his head.
But I think its MASSIVELY absurd that We them say "ok, you got a red card and probably cost your team a game, but we are still going to hit you with a 6 week suspension, and no matter what the mitigating circumstances, that will never be less than 3 games".
I understand having a starting point for a suspension, but I see no reason for a committee to not have the power to say "ok, thats stil a red under current rules, but there was no intent / there was an attacker who initiated contact/ the contact was unavoidable etc, and hence no suspension is required (or 1 or 2 games, whatever)
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@Bones said in Judiciary Happenings:
@voodoo so if a player gets a red card, they shouldn't be further sanctioned?
Possibly - but the sanction should be based on the actual incident. I dont aee why a red card, especially in the current climate where we have made it a lot easier to get one, should be a a minimum of 3 games regardless of the incident itself. 3 games and potentially up to 79 minutes of missed time is a heck of a lot of punishment for a borderline red
