RWC: England v New Zealand (SF1)
-
-
@MiketheSnow said in RWC: England v New Zealand (SF1):
@ACT-Crusader said in RWC: England v New Zealand (SF1):
Scott Barrett with the wheels.
Impressive
Day after in Tokyo. SB might not have stolen a lineout, but this was AMAZING. Was May injured?
-
From our seats it was clear from the start that England challenged us up front and we were found wanting. We never looked like winning, in fact the score flattered us. The backs were neutered as a result of the forwards' inability to get parity
@canefan said in RWC: England v New Zealand (SF1):
From our seats it was clear from the start that England challenged us up front and we were found wanting. We never looked like winning, in fact the score flattered us. The backs were neutered as a result of the forwards' inability to get parity
Also going straight to the edges instead of trying to build phases hurt your forwards. No continuity.
Two opensides ...
-
@canefan said in RWC: England v New Zealand (SF1):
From our seats it was clear from the start that England challenged us up front and we were found wanting. We never looked like winning, in fact the score flattered us. The backs were neutered as a result of the forwards' inability to get parity
Also going straight to the edges instead of trying to build phases hurt your forwards. No continuity.
Two opensides ...
@NTA said in RWC: England v New Zealand (SF1):
@canefan said in RWC: England v New Zealand (SF1):
From our seats it was clear from the start that England challenged us up front and we were found wanting. We never looked like winning, in fact the score flattered us. The backs were neutered as a result of the forwards' inability to get parity
Also going straight to the edges instead of trying to build phases hurt your forwards. No continuity.
Two opensides ...
Yup. The opposite to the Irish game, where we punched it up the middle. We got isolated and they turned us over or pushed us out. Tactically found wanting
-
I think some of you are being harsh on Mo'unga for 'going missing'. Barrett is the man calling the shots, he is the one who decides when he gets the ball. He is runnng that backline, not Mo'unga.
-
I think some of you are being harsh on Mo'unga for 'going missing'. Barrett is the man calling the shots, he is the one who decides when he gets the ball. He is runnng that backline, not Mo'unga.
@Crazy-Horse The criticism of Mo'unga was that he was targeted and exposed on defence, not what he did on attack. I thought he made a few half-breaks in the 2nd half that nearly led to something. Smith, Barrett and Mo'unga were all guilty of some aimless kicking.
-
On Mo'unga, is this another result of the loose forward switcheroo (that I'm definitely in the seeming like I'm harping on about category now, but it's virtually impossible to discuss this match without it)? Is Cane the guy who usually helps to cover that area - because I don't remember him being exposed there before, but I can see a scenario where he gets barrelled through but slows the attacker down and the loosies pick him up.
-
Great English performance, congratulations to the Poms. Our forwards were smashed and spat out.
Some thoughts.
One thing I did notice was how much bigger or built up the English forwards seemed to be. In the ABs case, is it too much speed work and not enough weights? Mmmm.....
It hurts but really, when you are beaten so comprehensively, sometimes you just need to sit back and applaud. They played great rugby and as a rugby fan, it was good to see a positively-oriented team win.
The backs can't do anything unless the forwards are doing their jobs.
Ironic that Ireland showed the blueprint to beat the ABs. We've had an obvious soft underbelly for a while lads. Writing was on the wall. Eddie was smacking his lips!
Shag. Thanks for the memories, you have been fantastic. Now, we need a new coaching line up. Said it then and I'll say it now, we needed one after the Lion's series. Maybe no candidates were available at that time. We need another "dream team". Tony Brown as attack coach please and definitely another forwards coach. Cron might be a scrum guru but he has to take some of the blame for a poor tight five recently.
And lastly, the silver lining. Can't wait for next year, a new look ABs and a new direction. Also, it will be good to shut up some of the arrogant kiwi supporters I have encountered recently. Cultural cringe! Wish some people would just stay at home.@Old-Samurai-Jack said in RWC: England v New Zealand (SF1):
They played great rugby and as a rugby fan, it was good to see a positively-oriented team win.
This. They played awesome footy.
No dull boring Warrenball sweating on mistakes from box kicks.
This is how we want rugby played.
Well done Ingerlund
-
@Old-Samurai-Jack Cron, as you say "might be a scrum guru" but as he is not part of the selection panel does he have to take some of the blame for a poor tight five? He can only work with who the selectors give him and if who they give him are not up to it in the first place there is not much he can do about it.
@Higgins said in RWC: England v New Zealand (SF1):
@Old-Samurai-Jack Cron, as you say "might be a scrum guru" but as he is not part of the selection panel does he have to take some of the blame for a poor tight five? He can only work with who the selectors give him and if who they give him are not up to it in the first place there is not much he can do about it.
Would have an influence and give his opinions though..
-
Having just watched it again, I still think people are underestimating how good a coaching masterclass this was by Eddie Jones.
I’m sure Eddie would have been a very happy man when the All Black team was announced on Thursday. The All Blacks went for size, indicating they expected England to play tight. The old story being that the English can only play 10 man rugby and hence that is what we expected them to do.
Then the early stages of the game, the All Blacks went for a defensive alignment that suggested they expected England to box kick. There are two standard defensive formations the All Blacks have played with this year. One with Mo’unga as a 2nd fullback / blind wing and one with him defending at 13. When he defends at 13, Bridge or Barrett is typically back for the box kick. It’s a defensive scheme that the Crusaders use a lot. It means if the kick does come, Mo’unga can drop back into the wider channels.
Eddie having planned for the above then decides to play a wide gameplan. This catches the All Blacks off guard. Jon Preston used this play below to say they were targeting Mo’unga. This is a little while after he got beaten by Daly on the outside. Mo’unga and Bridge are caught in a 4 on 2 so go into a drift defense. Savea comes across the English make ground on the inside with Aaron Smith well out of position for his sweeper. The key for the English was quick ruck ball. Look at the 8 All Blacks on the other side of the ruck marking three Englishman.
A few minutes later they find space on the other side of the field. Again a 4 on 2, in this instance Reece makes a gamble rushes at and stops it. They did this routinely in the first half. Preston at half time said their formation was set at targeting Mo’unga. Whilst they did try to stand him up one on one a few times, their structure seemed in my view designed to move around our slow forward pack. When you watch the breakdowns prior to these overlaps, the English 6 and 7 were dominating. Putting Cane on the bench was a big error.
The English could have scored a lot more points in the first half but finishing let them down. Also numbers 11-14 for the All Blacks scrambled really well in difficult situations.
The other thing that stood out in the first half was the interplay of the English forwards, from 1 to 8 the offloading and the skills were superb. It created go forward and kept the play alive. Read and Retallick topped the missed tackle count and the All Blacks pack couldn’t match the pace or the intensity.
When the All Blacks got the ball the English defence was incredibly well prepared. They knew the All Blacks patterns well. Mo’unga and Barrett both played terribly mainly because the English knew what they were going to do. Take the Barrett intercept for example. There is only one place the ball is going. Tuilagi rushes up and takes the option away (also, he was well onside). Tuilagi was huge on defence.
There were multiple situations in the first half where the outside rush took away the support play and Barrett or Mo’unga had to hold it. This was usually followed by a poor kick.
In the 2nd half the All Blacks looked to play with more depth but the English targeted the established forward pods. Here’s Tuilagi again rushing up on Retallick and killing a large overlap.
Here, Underhill lines up Read. They knew exactly who to target. Underhill was superb, possibly the best performance I’ve ever seen from an English 7.
The All Blacks could not get into the game at all. Eddie had a plan for everything, right down to when Jordie Barrett came on for Bridge. The very first play he was on, they put up a high ball, he didn’t attack it and Itoje recovered. The kick came from an odd position after a kickoff too so you could tell it was a set plan.Overall, the All Blacks were out-thought and out-played. The biggest difference was the skills and the pace of the English pack. Itoje was my man of the match but Lawes was great, Sinckler has matured into a allround player, and the Kamikaze kids are fast, strong and smart. Eddie Jones has done a phenomenal job. Also, so has John Mitchell.
Which brings me to the next All Black coach, whoever gets the job is in for a tough task. We can argue about back selections as much as we want but forward depth in New Zealand is poor. When was the last time we got truly excited about a tight forward prospect coming through? The reality is Franks hung on for a few years because no-one was sticking up their hand and if Angus Ta’avao is the answer I’m not sure what the question is. There have a been a few age group stars that have faded (Akira Ioane, Aumua) but no-one is really challenging for a spot. No 6 or 8 has been consistent and that led to playing 2 sevens. We lack good ball runners and the interplay and the offloading we saw from the English pack was non-existent from the All Blacks.
Well done England and well done Eddie Jones.
Edit: Sorry for the crap photos
@fcc Awesome analysis , but it hurts reading it
Jones and Mitchell did a job on Shag and fozzie big time
-
Not trawling back to see if already posted...
-
It's easy to forget just how good Carter was in the 2015 semi against SA. Like last night we were well below par in that game, and he took it by the scruff of the neck and got us over the line. Could have easily been bundled out then; boy did we need a cool head like that against England.
-
@sparky said in RWC: England v New Zealand (SF1):
It's funny coz it's true.
Wal's reaction feels so, so familiar. -
ben Smith rieko loane should of played
@Jonty-lean said in RWC: England v New Zealand (SF1):
ben Smith rieko loane should of played
“have”
I'll ignore the random capitalisation.
Welcome to the Fern, but beware... here be pedants. -
Having just watched it again, I still think people are underestimating how good a coaching masterclass this was by Eddie Jones.
I’m sure Eddie would have been a very happy man when the All Black team was announced on Thursday. The All Blacks went for size, indicating they expected England to play tight. The old story being that the English can only play 10 man rugby and hence that is what we expected them to do.
Then the early stages of the game, the All Blacks went for a defensive alignment that suggested they expected England to box kick. There are two standard defensive formations the All Blacks have played with this year. One with Mo’unga as a 2nd fullback / blind wing and one with him defending at 13. When he defends at 13, Bridge or Barrett is typically back for the box kick. It’s a defensive scheme that the Crusaders use a lot. It means if the kick does come, Mo’unga can drop back into the wider channels.
Eddie having planned for the above then decides to play a wide gameplan. This catches the All Blacks off guard. Jon Preston used this play below to say they were targeting Mo’unga. This is a little while after he got beaten by Daly on the outside. Mo’unga and Bridge are caught in a 4 on 2 so go into a drift defense. Savea comes across the English make ground on the inside with Aaron Smith well out of position for his sweeper. The key for the English was quick ruck ball. Look at the 8 All Blacks on the other side of the ruck marking three Englishman.
A few minutes later they find space on the other side of the field. Again a 4 on 2, in this instance Reece makes a gamble rushes at and stops it. They did this routinely in the first half. Preston at half time said their formation was set at targeting Mo’unga. Whilst they did try to stand him up one on one a few times, their structure seemed in my view designed to move around our slow forward pack. When you watch the breakdowns prior to these overlaps, the English 6 and 7 were dominating. Putting Cane on the bench was a big error.
The English could have scored a lot more points in the first half but finishing let them down. Also numbers 11-14 for the All Blacks scrambled really well in difficult situations.
The other thing that stood out in the first half was the interplay of the English forwards, from 1 to 8 the offloading and the skills were superb. It created go forward and kept the play alive. Read and Retallick topped the missed tackle count and the All Blacks pack couldn’t match the pace or the intensity.
When the All Blacks got the ball the English defence was incredibly well prepared. They knew the All Blacks patterns well. Mo’unga and Barrett both played terribly mainly because the English knew what they were going to do. Take the Barrett intercept for example. There is only one place the ball is going. Tuilagi rushes up and takes the option away (also, he was well onside). Tuilagi was huge on defence.
There were multiple situations in the first half where the outside rush took away the support play and Barrett or Mo’unga had to hold it. This was usually followed by a poor kick.
In the 2nd half the All Blacks looked to play with more depth but the English targeted the established forward pods. Here’s Tuilagi again rushing up on Retallick and killing a large overlap.
Here, Underhill lines up Read. They knew exactly who to target. Underhill was superb, possibly the best performance I’ve ever seen from an English 7.
The All Blacks could not get into the game at all. Eddie had a plan for everything, right down to when Jordie Barrett came on for Bridge. The very first play he was on, they put up a high ball, he didn’t attack it and Itoje recovered. The kick came from an odd position after a kickoff too so you could tell it was a set plan.Overall, the All Blacks were out-thought and out-played. The biggest difference was the skills and the pace of the English pack. Itoje was my man of the match but Lawes was great, Sinckler has matured into a allround player, and the Kamikaze kids are fast, strong and smart. Eddie Jones has done a phenomenal job. Also, so has John Mitchell.
Which brings me to the next All Black coach, whoever gets the job is in for a tough task. We can argue about back selections as much as we want but forward depth in New Zealand is poor. When was the last time we got truly excited about a tight forward prospect coming through? The reality is Franks hung on for a few years because no-one was sticking up their hand and if Angus Ta’avao is the answer I’m not sure what the question is. There have a been a few age group stars that have faded (Akira Ioane, Aumua) but no-one is really challenging for a spot. No 6 or 8 has been consistent and that led to playing 2 sevens. We lack good ball runners and the interplay and the offloading we saw from the English pack was non-existent from the All Blacks.
Well done England and well done Eddie Jones.
Edit: Sorry for the crap photos
@fcc that's awesome, cheers. Only thing is, and your shots show it well...on so many occasions they just neglected to throw that last pass and it wasn't because the option wasn't there, they just created pressure in their own heads and didn't trust. Bottled it.
-
@fcc that's awesome, cheers. Only thing is, and your shots show it well...on so many occasions they just neglected to throw that last pass and it wasn't because the option wasn't there, they just created pressure in their own heads and didn't trust. Bottled it.
@Bones said in RWC: England v New Zealand (SF1):
@fcc that's awesome, cheers. Only thing is, and your shots show it well...on so many occasions they just neglected to throw that last pass and it wasn't because the option wasn't there, they just created pressure in their own heads and didn't trust. Bottled it.
If only Gilbert Enoka could have helped them with their mental strength and clarity.
-
It's easy to forget just how good Carter was in the 2015 semi against SA. Like last night we were well below par in that game, and he took it by the scruff of the neck and got us over the line. Could have easily been bundled out then; boy did we need a cool head like that against England.
@No-Quarter said in RWC: England v New Zealand (SF1):
It's easy to forget just how good Carter was in the 2015 semi against SA. Like last night we were well below par in that game, and he took it by the scruff of the neck and got us over the line. Could have easily been bundled out then; boy did we need a cool head like that against England.
We'll never know if guys like Cane, Crotty and B smith could have pulled us through
-
Like France the weekend before, the margin during the match was never insurmountable and whilst under pressure NZ were never starved of possession.
It's what they did and didn't do with the ball that did for them.
Poor choices on the field by the players and no real Plan B.
