RWC: England v New Zealand (SF1)
-
I know that Beuden has a lot of pace. And Jordie isn't a slouch.
But does anyone have any insight to Scott Barrett's speed?There is a moment in the first half where Tuilagi intercepts and England get Johhny May into space out wide. Only cover defence is Scott Barrett. He has the angle to work with, but I would have bet the house that May takes him on the outside for a sure England try.
But Barrett shuts him down and forces him inside. England knock on. Try saved.
@Billy-Webb said in RWC: England v New Zealand (SF1):
I know that Beuden has a lot of pace. And Jordie isn't a slouch.
But does anyone have any insight to Scott Barrett's speed?There is a moment in the first half where Tuilagi intercepts and England get Johhny May into space out wide. Only cover defence is Scott Barrett. He has the angle to work with, but I would have bet the house that May takes him on the outside for a sure England try.
But Barrett shuts him down and forces him inside. England knock on. Try saved.
May was an injury doubt before the semi final. He clearly wasn't fully fit as he demonstrated in the moment you referenced. There's no way a 100% May couldn't outsprint Scott Barrett.
-
All Blacks plunge after the ineptitude in Yokohama to their lowest ever position in the World Rugby rankings:
@sparky semifinal shocker...as opposed to beaten by a rampant England or similar.
-
It doesn't mean the ABs played THAT badly...as Reid and Hansen said..."we gave it everything we had but we couldn't play the game we wanted."The English had one plan: Get the first points and smash the opposition with a king hit in the opening minutes then smother them so they cannot breathe....nullify their attack for the rest of the game. The ABs and the Boks have the most dynamic attacking side in the world and all the POMS know how to beat them is to play total defensive rugby and block the attack.
They played like they had 20 players on the field...they were everywhere...not one on one... three on one. I can hear Eddie screaming this plan at them.
The ABs were stunned and rattled by this and played the game with every player handcuffed.
GO BOKKE!!!!! Get back to attacking these bastards and bring the cup back to the SH.
-
@ACT-Crusader said in RWC: England v New Zealand (SF1):
@Damo said in RWC: England v New Zealand (SF1):
@cgrant said in RWC: England v New Zealand (SF1):
Crucial moments :
- The missed tackle on Daly. It gave England a big momentum, they scored and then on, they never looked back. This first try gave them the confidence they needed.
- Retallick's missed pass. Had the ball reached Savea, NZ would have scored. At 7-all, this might have forced England to play a tighter game for which the All Blacks were prepared. Instead, the All Blacks lost their collective cohesion, with players trying to change the facet of the game on their own. Accordingly, England's confidence grew even higher.
The reversal of PK against Whitelock was the key moment for me.
We were just starting to get into the game. We could have had a lineout 10m out from the line, 9 points down and about 20 minutes to go. Instead we lost the ball and 30 metres. Honestly I feel we would have been a chance at a memorable comeback had we kept that PK.
I agree with that. We had moments and given the score hadnât blown out, we just need to take those moments to build towards our end.
What makes that play worse was that Owens had blown the penalty and Whitelock went in after the whistle to get the ball out. Farrell was still into after the whistle. The rest is history as they say.
Unnecessary and dumb by Whitelock.
But geez Farrell milked it like he was a Premier League soccer player.
He is a really talented rugby player. But stuff like that just reinforces my intense dislike for him on a rugby pitch.@Billy-Webb said in RWC: England v New Zealand (SF1):
@ACT-Crusader said in RWC: England v New Zealand (SF1):
@Damo said in RWC: England v New Zealand (SF1):
@cgrant said in RWC: England v New Zealand (SF1):
Crucial moments :
- The missed tackle on Daly. It gave England a big momentum, they scored and then on, they never looked back. This first try gave them the confidence they needed.
- Retallick's missed pass. Had the ball reached Savea, NZ would have scored. At 7-all, this might have forced England to play a tighter game for which the All Blacks were prepared. Instead, the All Blacks lost their collective cohesion, with players trying to change the facet of the game on their own. Accordingly, England's confidence grew even higher.
The reversal of PK against Whitelock was the key moment for me.
We were just starting to get into the game. We could have had a lineout 10m out from the line, 9 points down and about 20 minutes to go. Instead we lost the ball and 30 metres. Honestly I feel we would have been a chance at a memorable comeback had we kept that PK.
I agree with that. We had moments and given the score hadnât blown out, we just need to take those moments to build towards our end.
What makes that play worse was that Owens had blown the penalty and Whitelock went in after the whistle to get the ball out. Farrell was still into after the whistle. The rest is history as they say.
Unnecessary and dumb by Whitelock.
But geez Farrell milked it like he was a Premier League soccer player.
He is a really talented rugby player. But stuff like that just reinforces my intense dislike for him on a rugby pitch.He's the new Quade Cooper, but with talent
-
It doesn't mean the ABs played THAT badly...as Reid and Hansen said..."we gave it everything we had but we couldn't play the game we wanted."The English had one plan: Get the first points and smash the opposition with a king hit in the opening minutes then smother them so they cannot breathe....nullify their attack for the rest of the game. The ABs and the Boks have the most dynamic attacking side in the world and all the POMS know how to beat them is to play total defensive rugby and block the attack.
They played like they had 20 players on the field...they were everywhere...not one on one... three on one. I can hear Eddie screaming this plan at them.
The ABs were stunned and rattled by this and played the game with every player handcuffed.
GO BOKKE!!!!! Get back to attacking these bastards and bring the cup back to the SH.
@Blackheart said in RWC: England v New Zealand (SF1):
It doesn't mean the ABs played THAT badly...as Reid and Hansen said..."we gave it everything we had but we couldn't play the game we wanted."The English had one plan: Get the first points and smash the opposition with a king hit in the opening minutes then smother them so they cannot breathe....nullify their attack for the rest of the game. The ABs and the Boks have the most dynamic attacking side in the world and all the POMS know how to beat them is to play total defensive rugby and block the attack.
They played like they had 20 players on the field...they were everywhere...not one on one... three on one. I can hear Eddie screaming this plan at them.
The ABs were stunned and rattled by this and played the game with every player handcuffed.
GO BOKKE!!!!! Get back to attacking these bastards and bring the cup back to the SH.
Rubbish.
England attacked plenty. They scored one try and had two disallowed.
-
@Blackheart said in RWC: England v New Zealand (SF1):
It doesn't mean the ABs played THAT badly...as Reid and Hansen said..."we gave it everything we had but we couldn't play the game we wanted."The English had one plan: Get the first points and smash the opposition with a king hit in the opening minutes then smother them so they cannot breathe....nullify their attack for the rest of the game. The ABs and the Boks have the most dynamic attacking side in the world and all the POMS know how to beat them is to play total defensive rugby and block the attack.
They played like they had 20 players on the field...they were everywhere...not one on one... three on one. I can hear Eddie screaming this plan at them.
The ABs were stunned and rattled by this and played the game with every player handcuffed.
GO BOKKE!!!!! Get back to attacking these bastards and bring the cup back to the SH.
Rubbish.
England attacked plenty. They scored one try and had two disallowed.
@MiketheSnow
You probably had the added advantage of being sober watching it...as the game wore on I attacked another bottle of red and tried to drown my sorrow and it all became a blurr...it felt like they were alot more defensive than attacking overall to me at the time...cheers...I'll watch the replay again with your observations in mind. -
@Blackheart said in RWC: England v New Zealand (SF1):
It doesn't mean the ABs played THAT badly...as Reid and Hansen said..."we gave it everything we had but we couldn't play the game we wanted."The English had one plan: Get the first points and smash the opposition with a king hit in the opening minutes then smother them so they cannot breathe....nullify their attack for the rest of the game. The ABs and the Boks have the most dynamic attacking side in the world and all the POMS know how to beat them is to play total defensive rugby and block the attack.
They played like they had 20 players on the field...they were everywhere...not one on one... three on one. I can hear Eddie screaming this plan at them.
The ABs were stunned and rattled by this and played the game with every player handcuffed.
GO BOKKE!!!!! Get back to attacking these bastards and bring the cup back to the SH.
Rubbish.
England attacked plenty. They scored one try and had two disallowed.
@MiketheSnow and should have had a couple more...on another day that maul try would have been given with the accidental knock missed.
As I said in another thread, up there as one of the best English performances I ahve ever seen.
-
@MiketheSnow and should have had a couple more...on another day that maul try would have been given with the accidental knock missed.
As I said in another thread, up there as one of the best English performances I ahve ever seen.
@taniwharugby Well there haven't been that many. Now they have to show they can do it all the time if they want to maintain the number one slot that we've enjoyed for the past ten years.
-
I know that Beuden has a lot of pace. And Jordie isn't a slouch.
But does anyone have any insight to Scott Barrett's speed?There is a moment in the first half where Tuilagi intercepts and England get Johhny May into space out wide. Only cover defence is Scott Barrett. He has the angle to work with, but I would have bet the house that May takes him on the outside for a sure England try.
But Barrett shuts him down and forces him inside. England knock on. Try saved.
@Billy-Webb said in RWC: England v New Zealand (SF1):
I know that Beuden has a lot of pace. And Jordie isn't a slouch.
But does anyone have any insight to Scott Barrett's speed?There is a moment in the first half where Tuilagi intercepts and England get Johhny May into space out wide. Only cover defence is Scott Barrett. He has the angle to work with, but I would have bet the house that May takes him on the outside for a sure England try.
But Barrett shuts him down and forces him inside. England knock on. Try saved.
I think I read a little while ago that S. Barrett has the best medium-longer distance times in the squad.
-
@Victor-Meldrew have to disagree on the Coles break. He totally ran away from any support and didn't even look to come back inside to find his team mates.
@Bones said in RWC: England v New Zealand (SF1):
@Victor-Meldrew have to disagree on the Coles break. He totally ran away from any support and didn't even look to come back inside to find his team mates.
to be fair to Coles he only knows one way head and shoulders down and storm forward. He would have been expecting the support to be there behind him but it wasnt
-
I'm not hurting. It sucked but it was inevitable. We can not get better without failure.
The maul knock was bullshit and opens the door to yet more over-involvement from the TMO. Its the dark arts. What happens in the maul stays in the maul...
I was more disappointed with Barrett/Mounga than anyone else. They were completely ineffectual when having the 2 of them on the field was supposed to be a decided advantage. Richie is young. He can grow into that role. He seems like a thinker to me and that's a good thing. Barrett, however, is not a player that thinks things through as much as you hope he would. He's not a dumbshit but he's 90% playing what's in front of him rather than calculating how to get us back into it. Its the exact opposite of what's happening with A Smith.
-
Two things bothered me at the time.
- Very passive defence and a lot of missed tackles. I think we were too concerned about possible cards rather than recognising the refs were terrified of continuing the same approach used the in pool fixtures.
- We created a lot of space and almost never sought to exploit it.
-
Two things bothered me at the time.
- Very passive defence and a lot of missed tackles. I think we were too concerned about possible cards rather than recognising the refs were terrified of continuing the same approach used the in pool fixtures.
- We created a lot of space and almost never sought to exploit it.
@antipodean yeah the missed tackles was a huge thing, id say up there as one of our worst defensive performance...obviously the cohesion, lines, off-loads by England were superb, but we dont miss that many tackles.
Yeah last week showed the refs were either under directive or in themselves decided the finals were different to pools and needed to be reffed differently.
-
@antipodean yeah the missed tackles was a huge thing, id say up there as one of our worst defensive performance...obviously the cohesion, lines, off-loads by England were superb, but we dont miss that many tackles.
Yeah last week showed the refs were either under directive or in themselves decided the finals were different to pools and needed to be reffed differently.
@taniwharugby said in RWC: England v New Zealand (SF1):
@antipodean yeah the missed tackles was a huge thing, id say up there as one of our worst defensive performance...obviously the cohesion, lines, off-loads by England were superb, but simply don't miss that many tackles.
I don't think the defensive structure actually helps either - far too much movement and complication. This gave a smart analyst plenty of opportunity to identify where we wouldn't be able to fold if the direction of play was different to what we expected.
I can't help but think a lot of it was developed to have us in a position to counter attack. The problem being we've not been getting a lot of that type of ball.
-
@taniwharugby said in RWC: England v New Zealand (SF1):
@antipodean yeah the missed tackles was a huge thing, id say up there as one of our worst defensive performance...obviously the cohesion, lines, off-loads by England were superb, but simply don't miss that many tackles.
I don't think the defensive structure actually helps either - far too much movement and complication. This gave a smart analyst plenty of opportunity to identify where we wouldn't be able to fold if the direction of play was different to what we expected.
I can't help but think a lot of it was developed to have us in a position to counter attack. The problem being we've not been getting a lot of that type of ball.
@antipodean yep, they were able to manipulate us into the areas they wanted (for attack or defence) while we were unable to disrupt anything for them to even get a foothold in the game.
Still a bit confused about our complete lack of pressure on thier lineout, that it appeared was one of the key areas we were wanting to pressure them, instead, they put more on us there.
-
On the missed tackles, we actually missed more tackles in the SA game (28) than in this game (20). The tackle success rate was much better too.
The problem for me was that the ABs were passive and we didn't see many dominant tackles. That meant England was always on the front foot.
-
What annoyed me the most was how many times we passed to players way behind the advantage line - with two players near the advantage line skipped behind, but England knew we were doing it every time and just nailed the guy behind the line.
@Nepia and they were doing exactly what we should have, the little pop just before contact (as we did last week) to exploit the gap and gain those extra metres, but like you say, we were passing deeper and skipping the man we should have hit.
HOw were we so easy to read? If we had done those same close in pops as we did last week, we would have made a load more metres, especially as it seemed they were instead waiting for the wider deeper runner...maybe Eddies talk of someone spying on them was a ruse to ignore the fact he was spying on us
-
@antipodean said in RWC: England v New Zealand (SF1):
@kiwiinmelb said in RWC: England v New Zealand (SF1):
The reality is , the scoreboard doesnât reflect the dominance , it probably saves us from the embarrassment it could have been
Agreed - easily a thirty point drubbing.
They were clearly miles the better team but that was more as a result of closing the ABs down rather than creating all that many scoring opportunities (even allowing for two tries correctly, disallowed). To say it should have been a thirty point drubbing is very subjective when they never really looked like scoring that many points.
Having said that I actually agree that they probably were about thirty points better when all is said and done but they weren't good enough to make it show on the scoreboard.
@Higgins said in RWC: England v New Zealand (SF1):
@antipodean said in RWC: England v New Zealand (SF1):
@kiwiinmelb said in RWC: England v New Zealand (SF1):
The reality is , the scoreboard doesnât reflect the dominance , it probably saves us from the embarrassment it could have been
Agreed - easily a thirty point drubbing.
They were clearly miles the better team but that was more as a result of closing the ABs down rather than creating all that many scoring opportunities (even allowing for two tries correctly, disallowed). To say it should have been a thirty point drubbing is very subjective when they never really looked like scoring that many points.
Having said that I actually agree that they probably were about thirty points better when all is said and done but they weren't good enough to make it show on the scoreboard.
You're so right. It felt like ABs were getting bashed, because we were so much on back foot. BUT IN FACT England converted most of their LEGITIMATE opportunities to points and we DIDN'T.
The obstruction try was never legal and it seems Retallick FORCED the maul mistake the other try was called back for.
The lesson we seem to have to learn every decade or so is that every once and a while a well coached team with good players will come up with a plan to make our Plan A ineffective/risky. Trying more of same is in fact digging ourselves into a hole, which is what England were so adept at helping us do. Eddie's finishers were in fact excellent at that role.
So we need to have several players with the nous to counter.
Was at game and without seeing recording dangerous to comment, but my instinct is we'd have been a lot better with a big midfielder to start. In this side that would have been SBW, and him running between Ford and Farrell could have been interesting. Add in Rieko running the diagonal as decoy/power option.
However, as has been said thousands of times, the right to go wide needs to be EARNED.
We needed go forward in pack in first half, and hard to know how we'd have achieved that. Ofa at TH might have been good, or maybe even Angus. Seems a given Cane needed to start to shore up breakdown, so other question is how much difference it might have made if Ardie started at 6. Worked well against Boks. Other option Frizell, but highlights to me how much Jerome missed.
But all said and done, at least one of their converted penalties was a very dubious call by Nigel, and at 7-13 we'd absorbed their best punches and they were digging in to hold us out.
We needed composure. Twenty to play. Converted try needed. No need to force the game. Viewed that way we SHOULD have found a way to win from there.
Could have really done with Crotty on at the 60 mark to bring some grey hair to backline. And Bender would have been a much safer option than Jordie when the chips were down.
Sam Whitelock keeps his shit. Penalty drilled to corner. Let's say ABs score an unconverted try.
I might have rose tinted glasses, but at 12-13 I really think we'd have gone on to win.
So much for what ifs. The harsh reality in the words of G. Gregan, Esq. is , 'Four more years'.
Going to bronze final and much as it's a damp squib, I really hope ABs show what they should have done on Saturday and send Shag and Kieran off with the ending they so richly deserve.
