England & Eddie
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Yesterday I was simultaneously happy for the victorious Boks, and pissed off at the manner of England's defeat. Last night I watched "Building Jerusalem", though, and felt relatively sanguine about the loss. Winning Bill is hard, there's a thousand things that need to go right in execution and even then you need a dollop of good fortune along the way; in contrast only a few things need to go awry, or the breaks don't fall your way, and you're farked. I don't believe in fate, I think , but I do like Terry Pratchett's idea of the narrative imperative - that some stories are just so good they have to happen. History loves a good narrative, and Kolisi's was just a great story! England will rise again, and win it again - 2023 looks a good shout given the age of the current squad and the quality of the age group cohorts coming through.
A couple of other random thoughts (before I forget my Silver Fern password until at least the 6N):
Japan - excellent hosts, honoured by their gallant and exciting national team.
Medalgate - I don't care how pissed off the England players were, awarding medals to the losers is part of the ritual - flush it down the hotel bog afterwards for all I care, but whilst you're at the ceremony suck it up and play your part with grace. Given the politeness of Japanese culture I thought that it was poor show by those who balked at the medal. But it's equally poor show that some will take this incontrovertible evidence as an opportunity to trot out all the tired old xenophobic tropes about arrogant hateful English rugby, the bane of the global sport. Hey ho.
This post is deleted! -
Yesterday I was simultaneously happy for the victorious Boks, and pissed off at the manner of England's defeat. Last night I watched "Building Jerusalem", though, and felt relatively sanguine about the loss. Winning Bill is hard, there's a thousand things that need to go right in execution and even then you need a dollop of good fortune along the way; in contrast only a few things need to go awry, or the breaks don't fall your way, and you're farked. I don't believe in fate, I think , but I do like Terry Pratchett's idea of the narrative imperative - that some stories are just so good they have to happen. History loves a good narrative, and Kolisi's was just a great story! England will rise again, and win it again - 2023 looks a good shout given the age of the current squad and the quality of the age group cohorts coming through.
A couple of other random thoughts (before I forget my Silver Fern password until at least the 6N):
Japan - excellent hosts, honoured by their gallant and exciting national team.
Medalgate - I don't care how pissed off the England players were, awarding medals to the losers is part of the ritual - flush it down the hotel bog afterwards for all I care, but whilst you're at the ceremony suck it up and play your part with grace. Given the politeness of Japanese culture I thought that it was poor show by those who balked at the medal. But it's equally poor show that some will take this incontrovertible evidence as an opportunity to trot out all the tired old xenophobic tropes about arrogant hateful English rugby, the bane of the global sport. Hey ho.
@Disgusted-of-TW said in England & Eddie:
Yesterday I was simultaneously happy for the victorious Boks, and pissed off at the manner of England's defeat. Last night I watched "Building Jerusalem", though, and felt relatively sanguine about the loss. Winning Bill is hard, there's a thousand things that need to go right in execution and even then you need a dollop of good fortune along the way; in contrast only a few things need to go awry, or the breaks don't fall your way, and you're farked. I don't believe in fate, I think , but I do like Terry Pratchett's idea of the narrative imperative - that some stories are just so good they have to happen. History loves a good narrative, and Kolisi's was just a great story! England will rise again, and win it again - 2023 looks a good shout given the age of the current squad and the quality of the age group cohorts coming through.
A couple of other random thoughts (before I forget my Silver Fern password until at least the 6N):
Japan - excellent hosts, honoured by their gallant and exciting national team.
Medalgate - I don't care how pissed off the England players were, awarding medals to the losers is part of the ritual - flush it down the hotel bog afterwards for all I care, but whilst you're at the ceremony suck it up and play your part with grace. Given the politeness of Japanese culture I thought that it was poor show by those who balked at the medal. But it's equally poor show that some will take this incontrovertible evidence as an opportunity to trot out all the tired old xenophobic tropes about arrogant hateful English rugby, the bane of the global sport. Hey ho.
I do agree with your post but would also point out that those very cliched tropes do have a basis to feed off and that actions like those the other night will keep stoking the fires.
There is no denying that rugby in England is a sport propped up by the 'entitled'. Yes, you may have gone a long way to spreading the player base away from elite schools but the financial support and administration is still mainly 'moneyed'.
I'm not saying they are bad people, just that there are attitudes that flow down and a certain level of arrogance that many don't like. Many in England itself don't like it either so this isn't just us poking you.
So, you can either embrace it as part of who you are and wear the barbs of others or try and change the fabric of the game there. I think the first option is easier. -
@Disgusted-of-TW said in England & Eddie:
Yesterday I was simultaneously happy for the victorious Boks, and pissed off at the manner of England's defeat. Last night I watched "Building Jerusalem", though, and felt relatively sanguine about the loss. Winning Bill is hard, there's a thousand things that need to go right in execution and even then you need a dollop of good fortune along the way; in contrast only a few things need to go awry, or the breaks don't fall your way, and you're farked. I don't believe in fate, I think , but I do like Terry Pratchett's idea of the narrative imperative - that some stories are just so good they have to happen. History loves a good narrative, and Kolisi's was just a great story! England will rise again, and win it again - 2023 looks a good shout given the age of the current squad and the quality of the age group cohorts coming through.
A couple of other random thoughts (before I forget my Silver Fern password until at least the 6N):
Japan - excellent hosts, honoured by their gallant and exciting national team.
Medalgate - I don't care how pissed off the England players were, awarding medals to the losers is part of the ritual - flush it down the hotel bog afterwards for all I care, but whilst you're at the ceremony suck it up and play your part with grace. Given the politeness of Japanese culture I thought that it was poor show by those who balked at the medal. But it's equally poor show that some will take this incontrovertible evidence as an opportunity to trot out all the tired old xenophobic tropes about arrogant hateful English rugby, the bane of the global sport. Hey ho.
I do agree with your post but would also point out that those very cliched tropes do have a basis to feed off and that actions like those the other night will keep stoking the fires.
There is no denying that rugby in England is a sport propped up by the 'entitled'. Yes, you may have gone a long way to spreading the player base away from elite schools but the financial support and administration is still mainly 'moneyed'.
I'm not saying they are bad people, just that there are attitudes that flow down and a certain level of arrogance that many don't like. Many in England itself don't like it either so this isn't just us poking you.
So, you can either embrace it as part of who you are and wear the barbs of others or try and change the fabric of the game there. I think the first option is easier.@Crucial said in England & Eddie:
@Disgusted-of-TW said in England & Eddie:
Yesterday I was simultaneously happy for the victorious Boks, and pissed off at the manner of England's defeat. Last night I watched "Building Jerusalem", though, and felt relatively sanguine about the loss. Winning Bill is hard, there's a thousand things that need to go right in execution and even then you need a dollop of good fortune along the way; in contrast only a few things need to go awry, or the breaks don't fall your way, and you're farked. I don't believe in fate, I think , but I do like Terry Pratchett's idea of the narrative imperative - that some stories are just so good they have to happen. History loves a good narrative, and Kolisi's was just a great story! England will rise again, and win it again - 2023 looks a good shout given the age of the current squad and the quality of the age group cohorts coming through.
A couple of other random thoughts (before I forget my Silver Fern password until at least the 6N):
Japan - excellent hosts, honoured by their gallant and exciting national team.
Medalgate - I don't care how pissed off the England players were, awarding medals to the losers is part of the ritual - flush it down the hotel bog afterwards for all I care, but whilst you're at the ceremony suck it up and play your part with grace. Given the politeness of Japanese culture I thought that it was poor show by those who balked at the medal. But it's equally poor show that some will take this incontrovertible evidence as an opportunity to trot out all the tired old xenophobic tropes about arrogant hateful English rugby, the bane of the global sport. Hey ho.
So, you can either embrace it as part of who you are and wear the barbs of others or try and change the fabric of the game there. I think the first option is easier.
I'll take the unlisted option C, "neither" - I'm too long in the tooth to lose sleep over the situation one way or another. It was a passing thought, nothing more.
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Yesterday I was simultaneously happy for the victorious Boks, and pissed off at the manner of England's defeat. Last night I watched "Building Jerusalem", though, and felt relatively sanguine about the loss. Winning Bill is hard, there's a thousand things that need to go right in execution and even then you need a dollop of good fortune along the way; in contrast only a few things need to go awry, or the breaks don't fall your way, and you're farked. I don't believe in fate, I think , but I do like Terry Pratchett's idea of the narrative imperative - that some stories are just so good they have to happen. History loves a good narrative, and Kolisi's was just a great story! England will rise again, and win it again - 2023 looks a good shout given the age of the current squad and the quality of the age group cohorts coming through.
A couple of other random thoughts (before I forget my Silver Fern password until at least the 6N):
Japan - excellent hosts, honoured by their gallant and exciting national team.
Medalgate - I don't care how pissed off the England players were, awarding medals to the losers is part of the ritual - flush it down the hotel bog afterwards for all I care, but whilst you're at the ceremony suck it up and play your part with grace. Given the politeness of Japanese culture I thought that it was poor show by those who balked at the medal. But it's equally poor show that some will take this incontrovertible evidence as an opportunity to trot out all the tired old xenophobic tropes about arrogant hateful English rugby, the bane of the global sport. Hey ho.
@Disgusted-of-TW said in England & Eddie:
Yesterday I was simultaneously happy for the victorious Boks, and pissed off at the manner of England's defeat. Last night I watched "Building Jerusalem", though, and felt relatively sanguine about the loss. Winning Bill is hard, there's a thousand things that need to go right in execution and even then you need a dollop of good fortune along the way; in contrast only a few things need to go awry, or the breaks don't fall your way, and you're farked. I don't believe in fate, I think , but I do like Terry Pratchett's idea of the narrative imperative - that some stories are just so good they have to happen. History loves a good narrative, and Kolisi's was just a great story! England will rise again, and win it again - 2023 looks a good shout given the age of the current squad and the quality of the age group cohorts coming through.
Without planning on winding you up - at what point do you think not winning will become a monkey on the back for England? I'm interested in what people think in general.
For us, I think it was after 1999. 1991 was you can't win them all. 1995 we got poisoned. 1999 was WTF is wrong with these guys!
By 2003, we were getting Gregan's "Four more years" taunt - one of the greatest sledges in sport, but it has turned into the "Curse of the Bambino" for the Aussies - because they're going to do at least the same 24 year drought we did.
Thought South Africa started with a lot more composure than England on Saturday - perhaps under less pressure because they weren't favourites but maybe because their drought was shorter.
A couple of others who didn't manage to face down their demons were Ireland, who didn't look like getting past their QF and Wales, who had a chance to go to the big dance, but that Patchell (?) dropkick was a terrible option.
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It’s been a terrible rwc for Ireland, losing to Japan , the traditional quarterfinal exit and it looks like they might have lost their title of most disliked team in the game to the poms .
I’m old fashioned though and going to buck the trend and maintain the way I felt about them before the rwc though .
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@Disgusted-of-TW said in England & Eddie:
Yesterday I was simultaneously happy for the victorious Boks, and pissed off at the manner of England's defeat. Last night I watched "Building Jerusalem", though, and felt relatively sanguine about the loss. Winning Bill is hard, there's a thousand things that need to go right in execution and even then you need a dollop of good fortune along the way; in contrast only a few things need to go awry, or the breaks don't fall your way, and you're farked. I don't believe in fate, I think , but I do like Terry Pratchett's idea of the narrative imperative - that some stories are just so good they have to happen. History loves a good narrative, and Kolisi's was just a great story! England will rise again, and win it again - 2023 looks a good shout given the age of the current squad and the quality of the age group cohorts coming through.
Without planning on winding you up - at what point do you think not winning will become a monkey on the back for England? I'm interested in what people think in general.
For us, I think it was after 1999. 1991 was you can't win them all. 1995 we got poisoned. 1999 was WTF is wrong with these guys!
By 2003, we were getting Gregan's "Four more years" taunt - one of the greatest sledges in sport, but it has turned into the "Curse of the Bambino" for the Aussies - because they're going to do at least the same 24 year drought we did.
Thought South Africa started with a lot more composure than England on Saturday - perhaps under less pressure because they weren't favourites but maybe because their drought was shorter.
A couple of others who didn't manage to face down their demons were Ireland, who didn't look like getting past their QF and Wales, who had a chance to go to the big dance, but that Patchell (?) dropkick was a terrible option.
@Chris-B said in England & Eddie:
@Disgusted-of-TW said in England & Eddie:
Yesterday I was simultaneously happy for the victorious Boks, and pissed off at the manner of England's defeat. Last night I watched "Building Jerusalem", though, and felt relatively sanguine about the loss. Winning Bill is hard, there's a thousand things that need to go right in execution and even then you need a dollop of good fortune along the way; in contrast only a few things need to go awry, or the breaks don't fall your way, and you're farked. I don't believe in fate, I think , but I do like Terry Pratchett's idea of the narrative imperative - that some stories are just so good they have to happen. History loves a good narrative, and Kolisi's was just a great story! England will rise again, and win it again - 2023 looks a good shout given the age of the current squad and the quality of the age group cohorts coming through.
Without planning on winding you up - at what point do you think not winning will become a monkey on the back for England? I'm interested in what people think in general.
For us, I think it was after 1999. 1991 was you can't win them all. 1995 we got poisoned. 1999 was WTF is wrong with these guys!
By 2003, we were getting Gregan's "Four more years" taunt - one of the greatest sledges in sport, but it has turned into the "Curse of the Bambino" for the Aussies - because they're going to do at least the same 24 year drought we did.
Thought South Africa started with a lot more composure than England on Saturday - perhaps under less pressure because they weren't favourites but maybe because their drought was shorter.
A couple of others who didn't manage to face down their demons were Ireland, who didn't look like getting past their QF and Wales, who had a chance to go to the big dance, but that Patchell (?) dropkick was a terrible option.
The choker tag was applied to us with glee from the NH as a way to say 'see, you aren't really that good when the pressure is on'. There was endless talk of peaking between RWCs.
England threw everything and re-mortgaged Twickenham to win this one. Brought the best coach, gave him a licence to lose while he molded and tested players and strategies, and scoured the registry offices for eligible players yet still came up short. The richest union in the game with the biggest pool to choose from and they can't find a way to the goal. -
@Chris-B said in England & Eddie:
@Disgusted-of-TW said in England & Eddie:
Yesterday I was simultaneously happy for the victorious Boks, and pissed off at the manner of England's defeat. Last night I watched "Building Jerusalem", though, and felt relatively sanguine about the loss. Winning Bill is hard, there's a thousand things that need to go right in execution and even then you need a dollop of good fortune along the way; in contrast only a few things need to go awry, or the breaks don't fall your way, and you're farked. I don't believe in fate, I think , but I do like Terry Pratchett's idea of the narrative imperative - that some stories are just so good they have to happen. History loves a good narrative, and Kolisi's was just a great story! England will rise again, and win it again - 2023 looks a good shout given the age of the current squad and the quality of the age group cohorts coming through.
Without planning on winding you up - at what point do you think not winning will become a monkey on the back for England? I'm interested in what people think in general.
For us, I think it was after 1999. 1991 was you can't win them all. 1995 we got poisoned. 1999 was WTF is wrong with these guys!
By 2003, we were getting Gregan's "Four more years" taunt - one of the greatest sledges in sport, but it has turned into the "Curse of the Bambino" for the Aussies - because they're going to do at least the same 24 year drought we did.
Thought South Africa started with a lot more composure than England on Saturday - perhaps under less pressure because they weren't favourites but maybe because their drought was shorter.
A couple of others who didn't manage to face down their demons were Ireland, who didn't look like getting past their QF and Wales, who had a chance to go to the big dance, but that Patchell (?) dropkick was a terrible option.
The choker tag was applied to us with glee from the NH as a way to say 'see, you aren't really that good when the pressure is on'. There was endless talk of peaking between RWCs.
England threw everything and re-mortgaged Twickenham to win this one. Brought the best coach, gave him a licence to lose while he molded and tested players and strategies, and scoured the registry offices for eligible players yet still came up short. The richest union in the game with the biggest pool to choose from and they can't find a way to the goal. -
Eddie...What isn't to like about Eddie? He seems to have the right attitude, is able to develop players, can coax epic performances out of teams with semi-regularity.
I'm sure England fans are disappointing at the loss - but I doubt they are left scratching their heads at puzzling selections throughout the cycle and can see the players were well prepared and went out there with a clear gameplan which just didn't come off.
Every interview I've seen with him where he isn't shit stirring I've quite enjoyed.
Who posted a series of off-the-record comments he made at a function (that were swiftly deleted and probably rightly so)? His views were pretty insightful and remarkably candid for the coach of England.
England... I mean they've made more RWC finals in the pro era than we have? Can't really stick the boot in.
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Eddie...What isn't to like about Eddie? He seems to have the right attitude, is able to develop players, can coax epic performances out of teams with semi-regularity.
I'm sure England fans are disappointing at the loss - but I doubt they are left scratching their heads at puzzling selections throughout the cycle and can see the players were well prepared and went out there with a clear gameplan which just didn't come off.
Every interview I've seen with him where he isn't shit stirring I've quite enjoyed.
Who posted a series of off-the-record comments he made at a function (that were swiftly deleted and probably rightly so)? His views were pretty insightful and remarkably candid for the coach of England.
England... I mean they've made more RWC finals in the pro era than we have? Can't really stick the boot in.
@rotated said in England & Eddie:
England... I mean they've made more RWC finals in the pro era than we have? Can't really stick the boot in.I'd say winning the finals is much more important.
Unless you want to give out participation awards. -
@rotated said in England & Eddie:
England... I mean they've made more RWC finals in the pro era than we have? Can't really stick the boot in.I'd say winning the finals is much more important.
Unless you want to give out participation awards.@Frank said in England & Eddie:
@rotated said in England & Eddie:
England... I mean they've made more RWC finals in the pro era than we have? Can't really stick the boot in.I'd say winning the finals is much more important.
Unless you want to give out participation awards.No doubt - but it's all a bit binary to say win the RWC or everything is a failure.
England have put together more good RWC campaigns than NZ in the pro era, and some absolute shockers as well.
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@rotated said in England & Eddie:
England... I mean they've made more RWC finals in the pro era than we have? Can't really stick the boot in.I'd say winning the finals is much more important.
Unless you want to give out participation awards.@Frank said in England & Eddie:
@rotated said in England & Eddie:
England... I mean they've made more RWC finals in the pro era than we have? Can't really stick the boot in.I'd say winning the finals is much more important.
Unless you want to give out participation awards.Like silver medals
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Eddie...What isn't to like about Eddie? He seems to have the right attitude, is able to develop players, can coax epic performances out of teams with semi-regularity.
I'm sure England fans are disappointing at the loss - but I doubt they are left scratching their heads at puzzling selections throughout the cycle and can see the players were well prepared and went out there with a clear gameplan which just didn't come off.
Every interview I've seen with him where he isn't shit stirring I've quite enjoyed.
Who posted a series of off-the-record comments he made at a function (that were swiftly deleted and probably rightly so)? His views were pretty insightful and remarkably candid for the coach of England.
England... I mean they've made more RWC finals in the pro era than we have? Can't really stick the boot in.
@rotated said in England & Eddie:
England... I mean they've made more RWC finals in the pro era than we have? Can't really stick the boot in.
I guess if you look at the Big Five (with a nod especially to Wales who've upset the apple cart on several occasions) in nine World Cups, par is probably something pretty close to:
2 x World Cups
2 x Beaten Finalists
3 x Beaten Semifinalists
2 x Beaten Quarterfinalists
9 x Made it out of pool playObviously with a bit of adjustment for SA missing the first couple.
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@NTA I know you are likely being contrary just to find some excitement in the RWC after the Wobblies produced their predicted shite tournament
But seriously, if your boy won a silver medal at big event and refused to even have it put around his neck I would like to think you'd have words with him about how he handled losing.
Throw the thing in the bin or off a bridge afterwards, give it away or even just take it off a little later but refusing to accept it properly at presentation or ripping it off while still with the officials? Just poor manners really.
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@NTA I know you are likely being contrary just to find some excitement in the RWC after the Wobblies produced their predicted shite tournament
But seriously, if your boy won a silver medal at big event and refused to even have it put around his neck I would like to think you'd have words with him about how he handled losing.
Throw the thing in the bin or off a bridge afterwards, give it away or even just take it off a little later but refusing to accept it properly at presentation or ripping it off while still with the officials? Just poor manners really.
@Crucial said in England & Eddie:
@NTA I know you are likely being contrary just to find some excitement in the RWC after the Wobblies produced their predicted shite tournament
I'm at peace with it. Have been since early October
But seriously, if your boy won a silver medal at big event and refused to even have it put around his neck I would like to think you'd have words with him about how he handled losing.
Yes. However, that is talking to him about it afterwards.
We're having a discussion about how whether the professional rugby players should have behaved that way in the first place.
So, in your scenario, my credentials as a parent are under serious question if we're saying the England team culture is shit.
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Eddie is staying with England
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=12282366
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The medals thing:
Small stuff that we sweat on too much these days.
I can definitely get myself riled up about such things and found an involuntary head nodding at all the reasonable admonishments posted here.
It wasn't ideal behaviour. But not especially representative of anything other than 20 something year olds behaviour being over ridden by emotions for a time in their life spanning less than 60 seconds.
Fast forward anytime from now and you meet one and he acknowledges that it was a pretty spack thing to do, and he was a bit het up at the time. Some degree of contrition and acceptance of the yucky optics.
Well, the whole outrage fire inside just fizzles out from that point.
Cory's right. Save your outrage for non hand shaking or public denigration of the winners.
In other words,, keep your outrage powder dry
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Eddie Jones has vowed to stay on as England head coach after Saturday's humiliating World Cup final defeat to South Africa
Why was it humiliating? Saw plenty of media that labelled our loss humiliating too.
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Eddie Jones has vowed to stay on as England head coach after Saturday's humiliating World Cup final defeat to South Africa
Why was it humiliating? Saw plenty of media that labelled our loss humiliating too.
@taniwharugby said in England & Eddie:
Eddie Jones has vowed to stay on as England head coach after Saturday's humiliating World Cup final defeat to South Africa
Why was it humiliating? Saw plenty of media that labelled our loss humiliating too.
Standard media histrionics
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Eddie...What isn't to like about Eddie? He seems to have the right attitude, is able to develop players, can coax epic performances out of teams with semi-regularity.
I'm sure England fans are disappointing at the loss - but I doubt they are left scratching their heads at puzzling selections throughout the cycle and can see the players were well prepared and went out there with a clear gameplan which just didn't come off.
Every interview I've seen with him where he isn't shit stirring I've quite enjoyed.
Who posted a series of off-the-record comments he made at a function (that were swiftly deleted and probably rightly so)? His views were pretty insightful and remarkably candid for the coach of England.
England... I mean they've made more RWC finals in the pro era than we have? Can't really stick the boot in.
@rotated said in England & Eddie:
Eddie...What isn't to like about Eddie? He seems to have the right attitude, is able to develop players, can coax epic performances out of teams with semi-regularity.
I actually really like Eddie Jones. Sure, he can say some things to rile people up, but for the most part I find him both insightful and entertaining. And he is clearly a bloody good coach.
Oh - and did I mention that Eddie has now been involved in both SA's last 2 RWC victories?
